so there seems to be a few threads going on right now about lineage. i know this sight does not allow fraud busting so i am trying to be respectfull of that (and i hope everyone else does too), but my question is, out in the real world if you found out someone in your community was a complete MA fraud with no lineage other than reading books and watching youtube videos, what would you do about it if anything?
It's not anywhere near as clear cut as that, though… for example "fraud" and "unskilled" don't mean the same thing…
I don't know really what you can do other than talk to them like a human being. The worst thing they can do is tell you to shove off. If they want to fight you, well, then there's the opportunity to show that they're a fake. Obviously don't provoke a fight but if they put their hands on you then it's fair game.
Okay, then, say they do fight you… and they beat you… badly. Are they now no longer a fraud? Is there claim (lineage) now legit and genuine? And what happens if someone with a legitimate lineage fights and loses? Is their lineage now fake? Are they now a fraud?
Aside from a few instances, most fakers don't get that far with their dojo/school because eventually the students will get disillusioned with the system.
Actually, some of the biggest schools around are the fake ones… mainly as they more closely match what people expect to see… I'll give an example or two later in this post.
Fraud? You mean Bogus? A heavilly striped misrepresentation of the Arts? A charlatan, a paper tiger, a strawman in a nice starched gi? Who ever heard of such a thing?
Again, that's not the same thing…
You know the sad part? It's not the guy who's purposely creating a con, it's the poor kid who was promoted way past his ability and thrust to the front of his organization's latest money making arm.
Okay, how about an art with an invented history, but some serious training is given, skill is as earned as in a "genuine" school, the "poor kid" is skilled and solid, and earned his grade the same way you would in a BJJ class (for example)… but the art is still "fraudulent" when taken as a literal term? What if there is no "money making arm", just someone trying to impart the best skills he can in the best way he knows how, regardless of how authentic the history is?
I would not train or teach under him or allow him into any class I was teaching. Other than that, nothing, I am not the martial arts police.
Okay… how would you know if they were fraudulent? Say they claimed to be a traditional Japanese Jujutsu system… what they did certainly looked a lot like it… very similar throws, some very Japanese weapons… but what they did was based in a false history? How about if, even with the false history, their techniques (say, the throws) were solid, and the guy did them well? Does that change anything?
I think it is hard to watch as a martial artist. Since everyone that starts there training knows nothing as a beginner, un-educated about what martial arts is and what to look for, you really have a hard time knowing until you gain experience and start research, you begin to see what works and what doesn't work. Hoshin1600 I guess you can offer to teach them. but all you can do is talk to them even though they bring down martial arts as a whole. I hope this is a hypothetical question and not one in the area, message me and let me know if it is
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Do they really "bring martial arts down", though? And what separates them from you, to the point that you classify yourself as a martial artist, but (by implication) not them?
In general, nothing. You can't police the whole martial arts world. Also, people have different ideas about what counts as genuine qualifications and who counts as a fraud.
Yep. Although when we're talking lineage (historically verifiable claims), it can be a bit more cut and dried as to what is genuine and what isn't… although not always.
The exception is someone claiming BJJ rank, especially black belt status. The BJJ community polices that pretty vigilantly. An unqualified individual teaching with a phony BJJ black belt can expect to have his name and the details of his fraud broadcast worldwide as a warning for potential students. (In years past the consequences might be more ... physical, but we're mostly more civilized these days.
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This is only possible because the BJJ community is still relatively small and the existing lineages are known. Any legitimate BJJ black belt will have a provable lineage leading back to either the Gracie family or Oswaldo Fadda.
Koryu are also something that are rather difficult to fake… but the problem with both the Koryu and BJJ "self policing" is that that is done within the community itself… I wouldn't trust a BJJ guy to have a clue about what makes for legit Koryu, and vice versa. And an outsider to either/both would have even less clue. I mean… I've done some time with BJJ… I'm probably one of the better educated in this area (legitimacy and historical claims) here… and I'd suggest it's still possible for someone to "fake" a BJJ lineage with me. Of course, they might simply make up (or claim an alternate lineage) where their line comes from… but could still have legit skills… which makes it even harder to figure out. If they are claiming to teach "the real, original BJJ, with all the tornado kicks and three sectional staff still in it"… that's a different story…
if someone is a complete fraud as martial artists i feel we should never take the path of a physical solution just because that is what we train about. so lets take that off the table.
Sorry, just to clarify here… are you saying that we train not to physically engage? Cause… that's kinda the opposite of how I'd describe martial arts… they're all about the physical engagement. As far as not looking to engage (aggressively), well, that's going to come down to the art and the person with regards to whether it's part of "what we train"… but I'll just throw this term out there: dojo yaburi (道場破り)...
if someone is teaching and claiming rank in something and its clear that he/ she is not authentic, as a community do we not have the responsibility to gaurd against this?
That will depend on your relationship to what they're claiming to teach. As in the Koryu/BJJ examples given, such things are typically policed by the group affected.
Out of interest… how would you tell that they aren't "authentic"? For example, pick an art you might not know much about… say… capoeira… or pekiti silat. Without knowing what the ranking is, how it's attained, or how the art is structured/works, how do you determine what is or is not "authentic"?
in the Gracie example yes i am sure they would pursue this because it is the family name. but if it was just advertised as grappling and not mentioned their name ?
Why would the advertising as "grappling" be fraudulent, if they're teaching grappling (from whatever source)?
this problem has existed a long long time. there was a point a few years ago that there was something brewing on the government level that they were going to set standards and begin to regulate martial arts ( all standards seemed to be tae kwon do based) you would then need to be licensed by your state. not sure how all that would work.
Yeah… I've seen a number of attempts. Honestly, it simply can't work on a practical level at all. After all… based on the standards of TKD, how do you rate and credential my Iai training? You'd need expert input from, basically, all the different systems, methodologies, and approaches out there… which will, by necessity, include these "fake" schools… which defeats the purpose of using it to keep out the fakes in the first place.
but there should be some controls on this. i dont think it should be on the state or federal level but why within any governing body of a style does no one do anything?
Many do. They just don't do a big song and dance about it. And it can't be an outside source that does it (such as a government, or even a specialist government agency). The practical knowledge simply can't be there.
i do know many years ago my aikido teacher Fumio toyoda would go to other schools that claimed to teach aikido and ask them for their certificate from hombu dojo and who back in Japan gave them authorization to teach. he would then give them a cease and desist letter. this lead to many re-naming what they did aki- jiujitsu.
Yep.
i know anyone can open their doors and teach but i feel authentic style organizations should do more to prevent the unsavory use of that style and system name.
And, again, they do. I know of legal cases and claims being brought against people using titles and system names that they have no legal right to.
if organizations did a better job at controlling this then "buyer beware" the consumer would be able to make better choices based on the well known system and style.
I like your ideal, but no, they wouldn't.
if consumers were buying a car they would by a chevy, ford or toyota. not many would buy the Hoshin, whatchamacallit. (its not that reliable and it dont look pretty but it will cost you 10k) it should be the same with martial arts. am i being to idealistic?
If they wanted to be safe, maybe… but even then, there's no guarantee. And there are a large number of makes of car that are not in the mass-populace's awareness… but are awesome machines. Not knowing a "brand name" isn't always an indication that it's a poorer choice…
Agreed. Certain Brazilians of a previous generation had a different perspective, but those individuals did a lot of thing that I don't think should be emulated.
Ha, should go through some of the old Japanese stories… tsujikiri, for example…
The problem is that (in most countries at least), no one has a trademark on the name of most martial arts. Even if they did, you can always alter the name enough to come up with your own variation. If I were to start telling people that I am the 39th generation grandmaster of White Dragon Kung Pow Jutsu, the best response from others would be just to point out that there is no such thing and that I'm being a very silly person.
Well, yes, you would be a very silly, silly Tony… ha!
Of course, your big exception will be Japan and Koryu… there, the arts are very much legal trademark/copyright situations. If someone was to open a school teaching "Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu" with no association (or accreditation) with the Ryu itself… well… that's a legal issue… and is treated as such quite seriously.
This does happen to a greater or lesser extent in different arts. One major problem is that the whole thing gets caught up in politics. Someone studies for 15 years in organization A, then has a falling out with their instructor and forms organization B. The original instructor immediately announces that the practitioner in question never learned the full art and is unqualified to teach it. Now repeat a few hundred times. In short order, you have a host of different schools and organizations with different standards who don't recognize the qualifications of practitioners from the competing organisations.
This gets kinda dicey, as if it's a new association but the same art, it will come down to the individual approaches of each… and students will need to make up their own minds. If person B creates their own new system within their new organisation, then it's really no matter, and just mud slinging… but all of this is actually quite removed from the idea of fraudulent behaviour and fake systems… none of this is meeting the criteria for that… simply political splits within a lineage.
As nasty as political feuds in BJJ can get, at least BJJ practitioners mostly recognize each others awarded ranks as legitimate , even if it comes from a rival instructor. (This might not have been the case if Helio had succeeded in his early attempts to control the entire art, but the Gracie family was too large and fractious to allow him to get away with that.)
There are other reasons for that, as opposed to the way other arts don't as easily recognise rank from other systems/organisations/instructors. For example, I have a Bujinkan dan grade practitioner looking to start with me soon… and, despite our historical link, in a very real way, his black belt means absolutely nothing in our organisation. From a practical standpoint, he holds no rank at all. He might have a lot of skill… and a lot of knowledge… but that's not the same thing at all.
So let's look at some examples of "fake" arts… we'll start with some that I have personal experience with.
A friend of mine teaches a particular system that he learnt from his father and godfather. His godfather is the founder of the system itself (in the UK in the 50's), and his father is the second head of the art. In simple terms, the art is a combination of basic judo nage-waza and katame waza, karate daken methods, some aikido kansetsu waza (none of these in a "complete" form) combined with weaponry systems that are, honestly, largely made up (with a visual basis in both Japanese and Ryukyu methodology)… but betraying a number of traits that show that they're not authentic in their origin. My friend believes (as he's been taught) that his godfather learnt a number of classical Japanese systems while briefly stationed there in the 40's and 50's… some of which he's named to me (and none of which have any evidence of any place in the methodology of his art at all)… and describes it as "classical Japanese martial arts… the art of the samurai… koden bujutsu (old transmission martial arts)". Sad to say, it's none of these things at all.
So… that's a fraudulent system. But does it mean that the practitioners don't have skills? Nope, not at all. They train diligently, and the school is very big and successful. The issue is the claims made… it's not traditional, it's not classical, it's not even Japanese (although it takes a lot from Japanese arts). My friend even goes to Japan each year to try to research the origins of his art, based on the stories he's been given… but always comes back with nothing but tenuous possibilities. He takes the opportunity while in Japan to train in authentic arts… but doesn't (or won't) make the connection to the lack of authenticity of his own art.
With regards to RTKDCMB's comment about not training with (frauds)… I have trained under my friend at a seminar once. He was teaching his arts sword approach (which I wanted to attend to confirm what I saw) as part of a three-instructor day. The seminar was organised by a Hapkido instructor whose school my friend teaches sword at once a month… and the Hapkido instructor made a number of references to him being "a samurai"… and teaching "genuine samurai sword"… neither of which are correct either. At the same seminar was an instructor of a modern Western "Jujitsu" system… which was really bastardised form of karate combined with low-level Judo throws. Again, the instructor claimed that it was "traditional jujitsu"… based on the idea that "it works"… and that he was taught by a "former police officer"… although he couldn't identify any actual history for the art. The point is that, as far as the Hapkido instructor knew, both the other guys were teaching legitimate traditional Japanese martial arts… but, by that criteria, both were "frauds".
Just to highlight this, I'm going to link a few videos… some of these systems are legit… some aren't. I'm wondering who can tell which is which…
