question on being gullible

[terryl965]

As I was reading some other threads about fraud busting it has occurred to me why do we care about these type of people, we have seen them come and go on this forum. Have they in anyway hurt any of us NO and is they staying in business to doop another victom any of our business probaly not.

In today world frauds our out all over the place in businessess, like the big oil companys, telephone, utilities and in martial Art as well. We as a society cannot stop big business so how do we expect to stop other Ma'ers from doing it as well.

A survey I was reading about gullible people and the roll they take said 7 out every 10 people know they are being doop and still go on with the program. So if people understand and still go along with it are they really being doop, in my opinion NO they are willing to let it happen so they are victims of there own statue.

In conclusion if 70% of the world knows what is happening and don't care why should we brother with trying to console them on being doop in the first place, with a little reseach and a internet line we can find out enough info. to make a educated guess about everybody and everything we do in life.

I would really like to get everybody views about this subject, not really looking to fraud bust anybody just there views on the survey and why is the world so gullible with all this info. and educated people.

Terry

 

[Andrew Green]

My opinion on fraud busting:

It's going to happen, people are going to come on here and say some really stupid things. They will be corrected, hopefully in a fairly friendly way. Hopefully this will lead them to question their training. Perhaps read some books, watch some tapes, look at other styles, etc. The more people know the harder they are to fool, and if they do get fooled and start poking around it won't take long for that to come out.

People actively searching out frauds to try and expose them is a waste. It does no one any good and hurts all of us. Anyone that might benefit from this has not done their research yet, so probably isn't reading the thread anyway. If they where the sort of person to read the thread, they'd have already figured it out.

Brining all the crap in the industry into the spotlight just makes the whole industry stink. I'd rather bring the good stuff into the spotlight, show people looking to get started what it should look like, not what it shouldn't. I don't think the message we want to send is that the martial arts world is full of poo and infighting, yet reading some boards could easily lead a person to believe that.

 

[Eternal Beginner]

A survey I was reading about gullible people and the roll they take said 7 out every 10 people know they are being doop and still go on with the program. So if people understand and still go along with it are they really being doop, in my opinion NO they are willing to let it happen so they are victims of there own statue.


Terry

Emphasis was mine...if the people know they are being dooped, then they really aren't being dooped, are they? They are choosing that method of training because, for whatever reasons, it suits them. Live and let live.

I'm sure we all know places we wouldn't train because it doesn't suit our needs, i.e, too competitive, not competitive enough, too much conditioning, not enough conditioning, etc., etc. Doesn't make the other places wrong, just not suitable.

I think we all have to be careful with "fraud busting" because what we consider totally unacceptable may be okay with others. We can't impose our standards on others, excepting of course criminal or unethical practices.

 

[Bigshadow]

I am of the opinion that part of the training is being able to see a fraud and also to seek out the good teachers from the bad.

However, many will continue on, even when they know they are being dooped. It is that way with all things. Even in the Declaration of Indepence, they mentioned that people will suffer, as long as it is sufferable. Those kinds of people will not change until they are completely cornered (so to speak).

In my opinion, I believe everyone gets the teachers they deserve with respect to martial arts. The fraudulent teachers are not the fools, it is the students of those teachers and it may be best they don't learn good stuff.

 

[Eternal Beginner]

In my opinion, I believe everyone gets the teachers they deserve with respect to martial arts. The fraudulent teachers are not the fools, it is the students of those teachers and it may be best they don't learn good stuff.

Bravo!

 

[Grenadier]

As much as I dislike frauds, I generally tend to leave them be, unless they really do things that are detrimental to the martial arts community as a whole. For example, a certain neo-ninja who sells black belt ranks in the non-existent martial arts style of "Vale Tudo," to someone who has a green belt rank at the best, is someone who fits the category.

Some of those frauds have all sorts of sycophant followers who are rabidly fanatical to them, and many will get very hostile at the mere mention of questioning their teacher's background. Even though some of these followers aren't exactly stupid people, maybe they just want to believe in something so badly, that they'll overlook the obvious.

 

[Bigshadow]

Some of those frauds have all sorts of sycophant followers who are rabidly fanatical to them, and many will get very hostile at the mere mention of questioning their teacher's background. Even though some of these followers aren't exactly stupid people, maybe they just want to believe in something so badly, that they'll overlook the obvious.

Similar to the people that followed, Jim Jones, David Koresh, and the Heaven's Gate Cult.

 

[jdinca]

If someone is willing to continue training at a school that they know is bs, then they only have themselves to blame. As for the others, it's an interesting dilemma. I do think we should care because these schools are giving all of us a black eye. There are McDojos teaching Bok Fu Do kenpo and their reputation as such has tarnished the GM and founder of our system, even though they have no affiliation with us and don't teach the system the way it was meant to be taught.

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

I am of the opinion that part of the training is being able to see a fraud and also to seek out the good teachers from the bad.

However, many will continue on, even when they know they are being dooped. It is that way with all things. Even in the Declaration of Indepence, they mentioned that people will suffer, as long as it is sufferable. Those kinds of people will not change until they are completely cornered (so to speak).

In my opinion, I believe everyone gets the teachers they deserve with respect to martial arts. The fraudulent teachers are not the fools, it is the students of those teachers and it may be best they don't learn good stuff.

The only problem with that is when you're talking about a self-defense school. If people are going to be claiming to teach techniques that will aid people in dangerous situations, failing to give the people accurate information can be harmful. IMHO, the passing along of B.S., in the guise of S.D., is harmful. It's too bad those gyms cannot be liable for said subsequent effect of their sub-standard S.D. training. In the end, it's still fraud, fraud's illegal; MA fraud just goes unnoticed.

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

If someone is willing to continue training at a school that they know is bs, then they only have themselves to blame. As for the others, it's an interesting dilemma. I do think we should care because these schools are giving all of us a black eye. There are McDojos teaching Bok Fu Do kenpo and their reputation as such has tarnished the GM and founder of our system, even though they have no affiliation with us and don't teach the system the way it was meant to be taught.

The first part of that statement isn't dissimilar to the statements people make about battered women. Should the person taking advantage be allowed to take advantage because the person being taken advantage of is too weak to stop the cycle? It's certainly a good question.

 

[Flatlander]

As I was reading some other threads about fraud busting it has occurred to me why do we care about these type of people, we have seen them come and go on this forum. Have they in anyway hurt any of us NO and is they staying in business to doop another victom any of our business probaly not.

Terry, you know what I think? I think I care, because I really dislike seeing people being taken advantage of. Now, I'm not knowledgeable enough, nor experienced enough to be able to do "fraud busting" on this forum. But, I do care enough about my peers to make the effort to provide them responsible guidance.

I will warn about unreasonable contracts, I will warn about people who have learned too little from too many, I will warn about poor treatment, ego trips, and generally dishonourable or disreputable behaviour. I advise people to do their own due diligence, to research and choose a teacher and to keep a critical eye. I do this because I care about people, and I despise thieves.

 

[Bigshadow]

The only problem with that is when you're talking about a self-defense school. If people are going to be claiming to teach techniques that will aid people in dangerous situations, failing to give the people accurate information can be harmful. IMHO, the passing along of B.S., in the guise of S.D., is harmful. It's too bad those gyms cannot be liable for said subsequent effect of their sub-standard S.D. training. In the end, it's still fraud, fraud's illegal; MA fraud just goes unnoticed.

It still boils down to personal responsibility. Also, if someone is sincere in their pursuit of training, they will find a good teacher. I still stand beside my opinion that a student gets the teacher they deserve (at that point in time). When the student is ready they will see the true value of the teacher.

 

[Bigshadow]

Should the person taking advantage be allowed to take advantage because the person being taken advantage of is too weak to stop the cycle? It's certainly a good question.

Should the lion be able to eat the gazelle because he was able to catch it?

I know it sounds cold, but they are predators and people have to be aware, or wary of them. All you can do is provide good information to those that seek it. Hopefully, people heed good advice. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

 

[MartialIntent]

The only problem with that is when you're talking about a self-defense school. If people are going to be claiming to teach techniques that will aid people in dangerous situations, failing to give the people accurate information can be harmful. IMHO, the passing along of B.S., in the guise of S.D., is harmful. It's too bad those gyms cannot be liable for said subsequent effect of their sub-standard S.D. training. In the end, it's still fraud, fraud's illegal; MA fraud just goes unnoticed.

Good point! And I think there's another wider aspect that frauds within the MA community not only make a mockery of our arts, they make a mockery of us in people's eyes because we actually take our arts seriously... Folk are thinking "how can you be serious about your art when the whole thing's a sham!"

I think we should be concerned that this is happening on our own doorsteps as it were, people are being duped and conned, others are being turned off becoming martial artists and others think the entire MA scene's an avaricious and underhand joke. Personally I'm not happy about how that reflects upon me and my contemporaries as part of our local MA community knowing so many who are truly compassionate and generous instructors and school owners who have great integrity and yet are being tarred with the same brush as these conmen.

Yes, the gullible are undoubtedly everywhere but I think genuine Martial Artists should use their influence in their communities to speak out against these crooks and charlatans rather than letting it be someone else's problem.

Respects!

 

[Flying Crane]

It's too bad those gyms cannot be liable for said subsequent effect of their sub-standard S.D. training. In the end, it's still fraud, fraud's illegal; MA fraud just goes unnoticed.

I understand the point you are making, but also remember that the absolute best techniques around are worthless if the student is unable to use them. This is not just the fault of the teacher, but also of the student. Maybe the student hasn't taken his training seriously enough to develop the skills, no matter how good the teacher or material is. Maybe that style is just a poor match for that individual.

No matter what you train, there is no guarantee in life that you will be able to use it when you need it. Life is unpredictable that way. This is just something that is too nebulous to be able to measure objectively, and then take action on.

It would be a bit like earning a degree in college, and then holding the college responsible if you can't find a job.

 

[Flying Crane]

This is an interesting thread, and it got me to thinking. We all post here and express our outrage at lousy, fraudulent teachers, mcdojos, inflated egos and the such. But most of us have never actually met each other or visited each other's schools, or matched skills against each other. Since "lousy" is a subjective term, I wonder how many of us would think that some of our fellows here on Martialtalk are lousy frauds if we did know each other personally. It was pointed out earlier in this thread, that what one person may think is a lousy mcdojo, another person would find to be terrific. Everyone has a different level of expectation, and we make judgements based on that. Just something that occurred to me. I am certainly NOT pointing fingers at any individuals.

 

[Sin]

I feel that if we all take care of ourselves and not worry about anyone else...We will have no problem...That being said, to worry about ones self is to follow the rules of Martial Talk, help other who ask for it, and continue the Friendly Discussion without any problems, those of us who have been here for a long wile, know who most active members are, and we have all become some what of a community, so we need to always be open minded and remember that some people are going to try and shake our ranks...But we can not allow it...We have to stay strong, Remember or Dojo Kuns and do good.

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

Should the lion be able to eat the gazelle because he was able to catch it?

I know it sounds cold, but they are predators and people have to be aware, or wary of them. All you can do is provide good information to those that seek it. Hopefully, people heed good advice. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Inapplicable analogy; natural predators (no pun intended) are not bound by social laws. In society, the implication is that a business is legit. You'd think that the majority of society has the critical thinking skills necessary to make an informed decision, but. . .no. The question at hand isn't whether responsibility rests on the individual, of that I'm sure nobody would argue, it is whether or not people, in a position to do so, should be allowed to take advantage of unsuspecting people. People who knowingly train at a B.S. place. . .well, I hope they don't fool themselves into thinking it's more than it really is.

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

I understand the point you are making, but also remember that the absolute best techniques around are worthless if the student is unable to use them. This is not just the fault of the teacher, but also of the student. Maybe the student hasn't taken his training seriously enough to develop the skills, no matter how good the teacher or material is. Maybe that style is just a poor match for that individual.

No matter what you train, there is no guarantee in life that you will be able to use it when you need it. Life is unpredictable that way. This is just something that is too nebulous to be able to measure objectively, and then take action on.

It would be a bit like earning a degree in college, and then holding the college responsible if you can't find a job.

Agreed, I was wasn't suggesting that they actually should be, mostly for reasons you stated; I was simply saying that it's too bad they can't be.

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

This is an interesting thread, and it got me to thinking. We all post here and express our outrage at lousy, fraudulent teachers, mcdojos, inflated egos and the such. But most of us have never actually met each other or visited each other's schools, or matched skills against each other. Since "lousy" is a subjective term, I wonder how many of us would think that some of our fellows here on Martialtalk are lousy frauds if we did know each other personally. It was pointed out earlier in this thread, that what one person may think is a lousy mcdojo, another person would find to be terrific. Everyone has a different level of expectation, and we make judgements based on that. Just something that occurred to me. I am certainly NOT pointing fingers at any individuals.

One of the things I do on a pretty regular basis is drop-ins at other schools. I've met a lot of great people that way, and sparred some people who surprised the heck out of me. It boils down to each camps mission. Also, I think that anytime someone's in a position of having a group people look up to them, and take what they say at face-value, it's easy to embellish a little.