Looking for a Taekwondo mentor

[bluepanther]

I suspect that is how and why my instructor came to Canada. The opportunity was there to earn a living being the first (or second) person into Canada to teach Taekwondo, and that's exactly what he did. His whole life was dedicated to TKD, and that was his living.

Once here, there would have been General Choi, my instructor (Chung Oh), and the guy in Toronto (I forget the name) and that's it. A pretty exclusive club. Not to mention ITF headquarters was moved here also. In effect, we were located at the home of Taekwondo. Not the birthplace of Taekwondo, but certainly its "home base" for the better part of decades.

Just curious, with your direct lineage to General Choi, what belt did you make it to under your instructor? And have you self-promoted any beyond that rank when you opened your own school?

 

[skribs]

We used to call that "Flavor of the Month".

You're old enough that months can be equated to decades?

 

[BaehrTKD]

You have incomplete information. First and foremost the times you specify are recent guidelines. For many years it was not the rank you were going for, it was the rank you were that equaled the minimum time in grade. For instance 2nd to 3rd was 2 years. Next, there were programs available that credited time for certain things like Instructor courses. This varied from a year credit to 3 months credit available once per year per course. Next, there was was not originally any time in grade for promotions to 8th or 9th. This is a recent invention. Lastly for this portion all the time in grade requirements seem to have been "Relaxed" for many of the pioneers.

At Chung Oh School they made it 3 years between every Dan level to balance things out, and at one point 2 years between 1st and 2nd, but then they bumped it up to 3 years like everything else.

I think most schools ignore the ITF guidelines for rank progression because they're just too long.

As it pertains to Han Cha Kyo - he was part of the 1952 Demonstration known for his jumping and a Chung Do Kwan Black Belt at the time . I think he was a first dan at the Time and Nam Tae Hi was a 2nd Dan. General Choi specified that all Chung Do Kwan Black Belts retained their rank but those from other Kwans would have to test. Pissed off a lot of people.

Another factor worth considering is my instructor's background in Hapkido. Maybe he came into Taekwondo training as a Hapkido black belt already. It's certainly possible. He would later select Hapkido-style uniforms as the uniforms for his school.

 

[BaehrTKD]

Just curious, with your direct lineage to General Choi, what belt did you make it to under your instructor? And have you self-promoted any beyond that rank when you opened your own school?

Long answer to this question indeed:

Under my original instructor (Chung Oh) I made it to assistant 3rd Dan, which doesn't sound like much, but I was the highest ranking active student at their Kitchener main school, and second/third overall in all of their schools only to Mike Malleck (who still runs a school in Cambridge) and his daughter Elizabeth Malleck. All of us are in the group photo I posted from 2008.

As you know, not all students are equal. Technique for technique, day in and day out, I was the best student they had. (I know people are supposed to be humble but sometimes I need to toot my own horn because I'm not written in any books.) Best flying side kick? I had it. Best jumping high kick? I had it. Best cardio? I had it. Even Chung Oh would get a smirk on his face watching me do side kicks, because that was one of his trademark kicks, where he was featured in a huge photograph at the front of the class.

Some of my immediate instructors right from white belt were also world champions at one time. (Three of them made the newspaper one time. Google search: "Seoul men" article with Perry Nicolau, Benson, and I forget the third guy.) I consider myself to have learned from the best of the best in TKD right from day one.

I put in almost 1500 training classes at their school in 10.5 years, more than anyone else. I learned everything that they could teach me. (Sam-Il was the final ITF pattern he taught.)

From what I've heard (other students that left the school to join others) they were immediately promoted up in rank because Chung Oh's School made the ranks take much longer than other schools were. Especially the lower ranks. They had 4 levels of test between each belt color. (3 levels per belt when I was color belt.)

Towards the end of my time at Chung Oh's, I voluntarily passed up on multiple tests: 2009 (2 tests), 2010 (2 tests), and early 2011 because I was already the highest ranked student and wanted to open my own school in my own name. That led to a falling out. Chung Oh's son Inn wanted me to open a school in their name and pay a 30% royalty to them. I wanted a school in my name, and wanted more freedom to set the content my way. Inn refused. As another test rolled around that I wasn't going to be going to, we parted ways in early 2011. Inn told me I couldn't train there if I was going to teach people privately and have my own school on the side.

(All I would have had to do is show up, pay my test fee, do what I do, and I would have had those extra ranks but I couldn't justify the $450 fee when we weren't in agreement.)

Once on my own, I set my rank up to where it should have easily been when I opened (full 3rd Dan), and I've had my Dad as a witness to any future tests, forcing myself to meet all of the same training, teaching, and study hours expected of my students. (My Dad has done multiple martial arts.)

Today, I have both no instructor and I have all instructors. I have the 15 volume Legacy encyclopedia and videos. I have YouTube. I have books. I learn from a variety of different sources. I've never stopped learning and studying Taekwondo and Hapkido, even comparing the differences Chung Oh had at his school to the books.

I've now been away from Chung Oh's longer than I was there. Chung Oh died in 2015. He oldest son Inn died in 2020. The school is gone.

However, I never stopped training or teaching. I still do things the "Chung Oh way", for the most part. I recognized that I know far too much not to be given credit for it. (Still lots to learn, but lots has been learned.) Getting away from Chung Oh's has also helped because I can see what other schools do too, something not possible prior to 2007 (YouTube).

 

[bluepanther]

Long answer to this question indeed:

Under my original instructor (Chung Oh) I made it to assistant 3rd Dan, which doesn't sound like much, but I was the highest ranking active student at their Kitchener main school, and second/third overall in all of their schools only to Mike Malleck (who still runs a school in Cambridge) and his daughter Elizabeth Malleck. All of us are in the group photo I posted from 2008.

As you know, not all students are equal. Technique for technique, day in and day out, I was the best student they had. (I know people are supposed to be humble but sometimes I need to toot my own horn because I'm not written in any books.) Best flying side kick? I had it. Best jumping high kick? I had it. Best cardio? I had it. Even Chung Oh would get a smirk on his face watching me do side kicks, because that was one of his trademark kicks, where he was featured in a huge photograph at the front of the class.

Some of my immediate instructors right from white belt were also world champions at one time. (Three of them made the newspaper one time. Google search: "Seoul men" article with Perry Nicolau, Benson, and I forget the third guy.) I consider myself to have learned from the best of the best in TKD right from day one.

I put in almost 1500 training classes at their school in 10.5 years, more than anyone else. I learned everything that they could teach me. (Sam-Il was the final ITF pattern he taught.)

From what I've heard (other students that left the school to join others) they were immediately promoted up in rank because Chung Oh's School made the ranks take much longer than other schools were. Especially the lower ranks. They had 4 levels of test between each belt color. (3 levels per belt when I was color belt.)

Towards the end of my time at Chung Oh's, I voluntarily passed up on multiple tests: 2009 (2 tests), 2010 (2 tests), and early 2011 because I was already the highest ranked student and wanted to open my own school in my own name. That led to a falling out. Chung Oh's son Inn wanted me to open a school in their name and pay a 30% royalty to them. I wanted a school in my name, and wanted more freedom to set the content my way. Inn refused. As another test rolled around that I wasn't going to be going to, we parted ways in early 2011. Inn told me I couldn't train there if I was going to teach people privately and have my own school on the side.

(All I would have had to do is show up, pay my test fee, do what I do, and I would have had those extra ranks but I couldn't justify the $450 fee when we weren't in agreement.)

Once on my own, I set my rank up to where it should have easily been when I opened (full 3rd Dan), and I've had my Dad as a witness to any future tests, forcing myself to meet all of the same training, teaching, and study hours expected of my students. (My Dad has done multiple martial arts.)

Today, I have both no instructor and I have all instructors. I have the 15 volume Legacy encyclopedia and videos. I have YouTube. I have books. I learn from a variety of different sources. I've never stopped learning and studying Taekwondo and Hapkido, even comparing the differences Chung Oh had at his school to the books.

I've now been away from Chung Oh's longer than I was there. Chung Oh died in 2015. He oldest son Inn died in 2020. The school is gone.

However, I never stopped training or teaching. I still do things the "Chung Oh way", for the most part. I recognized that I know far too much not to be given credit for it. (Still lots to learn, but lots has been learned.) Getting away from Chung Oh's has also helped because I can see what other schools do too, something not possible prior to 2007 (YouTube).

Long answer, but a good read. Thanks for sharing. What rank do you hold today?

 

[BaehrTKD]

Long answer, but a good read. Thanks for sharing. What rank do you hold today?

As of December 8, 2023, now 7th Dan black belt.

My complete test history (I keep a journal):

PROMOTIONS @ CHUNG OH’S:
- Joined on August 16, 2000.***
- Obtained yellow belt on September 24, 2000.
- Obtained green stripe on November 19, 2000.
- Obtained green belt on January 21, 2001.
- Obtained blue stripe on March 18, 2001.
- Obtained double blue stripe on June 24, 2001.
- Obtained blue belt on August 19, 2001.
- Obtained red stripe on November 18, 2001.
- Obtained double red stripe on February 24, 2002.
- Obtained red belt on April 28, 2002.
- Obtained black stripe on July 21, 2002.
- Obtained double black stripe on September 22, 2002.
- Obtained assistant black belt on November 2, 2002.
- Obtained assistant 1st degree black belt (white stripe) on May 31, 2003.
- Obtained 1st dan black belt on November 8, 2003.
- Obtained senior 1st dan black belt on November 13, 2004.
- Obtained assistant 2nd dan black belt on November 5, 2005.
- Obtained 2nd dan black belt on March 31, 2007.
- Obtained senior 2nd dan black belt on November 3, 2007.
- Obtained assistant 3rd dan black belt on October 4, 2008.
- Final class at Chung Oh's School on March 21, 2011.
Total number of tests @ Chung Oh’s: 19.

***Was originally a student as a child in the 1990's for a time, but rejoined at white belt as an adult.

PROMOTIONS @ BAEHR TAEKWONDO:
- Joined on March 23, 2011
- Obtained 3rd dan black belt on March 23, 2011.
- Obtained senior 3rd dan black belt on November 21, 2013.
- Obtained 4th dan black belt on September 27, 2015.
- Obtained 5th dan black belt on March 27, 2021.
- Obtained 6th dan black belt on March 20, 2022.
- Obtained 7th dan black belt on December 8, 2023.
Total number of tests @ Baehr Taekwondo: 6.

(Because some of the earlier tests were way too long in coming, some of the latter ones have been made sooner than they otherwise would have been.)

At my school there are two levels between each Dan level up until 4th Dan. (At Chung Oh's school there were 3 levels between each Dan level.)

 

[BaehrTKD]

Thank you sir. Now We just need 4-3-2-1.

Out of curiosity, wouldn't the ITF have a log of every certificate they have issued? The ITF should have the #, name, date, and rank of every certificate they have issued to prevent fraudulent/counterfeit certificates.

Someone at the ITF should be able to present a list of every certificate they have ever issued.

 

[skribs]

PROMOTIONS @ BAEHR TAEKWONDO:
- Joined on March 23, 2011
- Obtained 3rd dan black belt on March 23, 2011.
- Obtained senior 3rd dan black belt on November 21, 2013.
- Obtained 4th dan black belt on September 27, 2015.
- Obtained 5th dan black belt on March 27, 2021.
- Obtained 6th dan black belt on March 20, 2022.
- Obtained 7th dan black belt on December 8, 2023.
Total number of tests @ Baehr Taekwondo: 6.

(Because some of the earlier tests were way too long in coming, some of the latter ones have been made sooner than they otherwise would have been.)

At my school there are two levels between each Dan level up until 4th Dan. (At Chung Oh's school there were 3 levels between each Dan level.)

It's your school and you set the curriculum. How do you test?

You went from 4th Dan to 7th Dan in 8 years? It took you <20 years to go from 1st to 7th?

Using the "easy" route of 1 year per dan per dan, it should normally take 21 years to go from 1st to 7th. Using the "hard" route of 1 year per next dan per dan, it would take 27 years minimum.

I put in almost 1500 training classes at their school in 10.5 years, more than anyone else. I learned everything that they could teach me. (Sam-Il was the final ITF pattern he taught.)

That's an average of 2.75 classes per week. The 10 year duration is impressive, but the number of classes per week is not. I'm also assuming you only mean classes in which you were a student, not classes in which you were instructing.

In both my old TKD/HKD and my current BJJ/MT schools, I'm averaging 15+ per week if you combine student and instructor hours. Just as a student, it was 5 in TKD/HKD and now 10 in BJJ/MT.

 

[BaehrTKD]

It's your school and you set the curriculum. How do you test?

I do all of the patterns, step-sparring movements, weapons, or whatever is required for that belt level... just as if I was doing it at Chung Oh's School. At one test for example, I did all 24 patterns, one after another from white belt on up, did every step-sparring set in my entire curriculum, and did knife fighting attacks/movements.

My curriculum is largely the same curriculum that was taught at Chung Oh's School. It should be noted that at Chung Oh's School, there were no new patterns or techniques to learn beyond 3rd dan black belt level. Students would create their own techniques and demonstrate them. (Sam-Il was the final ITF pattern at Chung Oh's.)

Tests become more ceremonial as you go up in rank, because you have nothing to prove any more.

You went from 4th Dan to 7th Dan in 8 years? It took you <20 years to go from 1st to 7th?

Actually it was just over 20 years. I received my 1st Dan black belt in Nov. 2003.

Had I tested at Chung Oh's in 2009, 2010, and 2011 before I left, (all tests that I voluntarily skipped), I would have been assistant 4th Dan in 2011. So realistically, 4th Dan black belt should have come in 2012. Despite skipping five test sessions (2 per year) I was still the highest ranked student at their Kitchener school when I left.

For the time period from 2008 to 2015 I only went from 3rd to 4th. That's 7 years of full time training where I opted not to test multiple times, even though I was eligible.

So realistically, it's 4th Dan to 7th Dan in 11 years.

Using the "easy" route of 1 year per dan per dan, it should normally take 21 years to go from 1st to 7th. Using the "hard" route of 1 year per next dan per dan, it would take 27 years minimum.

I thought about following the ITF system on that, but I noticed that Chung Oh's School did not follow that system. They went 3 years for every full degree of black belt (on average). Some students might get fast-tracked based on how often they trained or taught classes however.

Based on the research I've done, it seems most schools don't follow the ITF system on time between Dan levels.

Not many students do Taekwondo for even 10 years let alone 20 years.

That's an average of 2.75 classes per week. The 10 year duration is impressive, but the number of classes per week is not. I'm also assuming you only mean classes in which you were a student, not classes in which you were instructing.

But you have to consider that they were only open four days per week. (M-Th). Friday was black belt class.

They were also closed for a week during summer and a week during Christmas, plus they were closed on statutory holidays.

Once you weigh those factors in, you can see that I was there about 75% of the time. 3 out of every 4 available class days that I could have trained, I trained.

And yes, that's only counting classes I was training in. Teaching was separate from that. I taught one day per week consistently for 7 of those 10.5 years, and at times it went up to two days per week.

In both my old TKD/HKD and my current BJJ/MT schools, I'm averaging 15+ per week if you combine student and instructor hours. Just as a student, it was 5 in TKD/HKD and now 10 in BJJ/MT.

One thing I found is that it's not just about quantity, it's about having time to reflect, study, and explore different ideas and concepts.

I got into a routine where I was doing the same thing over and over again, and could do the techniques in my sleep, but I didn't have the "why" behind it, and didn't ever consider all of the other uses a particular technique might have. I sort of got "tunnel vision".

In any event, if you're putting in that much time you've certainly earned a high rank!

Even the Legacy Guide shows that one possible path to black belt could be obtained in one year (I think that's what it was) if the student trained 8 hours per day, 5 days per week. Even though the book lists it as a possible path, I know from experience that no student can learn in one year what it takes to be black belt. The human body can't even properly develop the flexibility and muscles to do the kicks in that short a time (at black belt level quality).

 

[Earl Weiss]

Correction - The Demo may have been 1954 - not 1952. I have an article published in TKD Times containing this dare. PM me with an e-mail if you would like me to send you a copy in PDF.

Out of curiosity, wouldn't the ITF have a log of every certificate they have issued? The ITF should have the #, name, date, and rank of every certificate they have issued to prevent fraudulent/counterfeit certificates.

Someone at the ITF should be able to present a list of every certificate they have ever issued.

They do have a log at the HQ in Vienna. It is not easy to get information from them however I was fortunate to recently obtain a replacement for my lost first Dan Certificate from 1976.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Even the Legacy Guide shows that one possible path to black belt could be obtained in one year (I think that's what it was) if the student trained 8 hours per day, 5 days per week. Even though the book lists it as a possible path, I know from experience that no student can learn in one year what it takes to be black belt. The human body can't even properly develop the flexibility and muscles to do the kicks in that short a time (at black belt level quality).

If by "Legacy Guide" you refer to the 1972 Text the one year guide would likely have applied to the Military age males who populated the Oh Do Kwan most of whom had Prior MA experience. Also of note is that as the Calender time was shorter for certain Time lines the total training hours increased so that the number of hours for the 1 year time frame higher than the 18 month time frame which was higher than the 3 year time frame

 

[HighKick]

As of December 8, 2023, now 7th Dan black belt.

My complete test history (I keep a journal):

PROMOTIONS @ CHUNG OH’S:
- Joined on August 16, 2000.***
- Obtained yellow belt on September 24, 2000.
- Obtained green stripe on November 19, 2000.
- Obtained green belt on January 21, 2001.
- Obtained blue stripe on March 18, 2001.
- Obtained double blue stripe on June 24, 2001.
- Obtained blue belt on August 19, 2001.
- Obtained red stripe on November 18, 2001.
- Obtained double red stripe on February 24, 2002.
- Obtained red belt on April 28, 2002.
- Obtained black stripe on July 21, 2002.
- Obtained double black stripe on September 22, 2002.
- Obtained assistant black belt on November 2, 2002.
- Obtained assistant 1st degree black belt (white stripe) on May 31, 2003.
- Obtained 1st dan black belt on November 8, 2003.
- Obtained senior 1st dan black belt on November 13, 2004.
- Obtained assistant 2nd dan black belt on November 5, 2005.
- Obtained 2nd dan black belt on March 31, 2007.
- Obtained senior 2nd dan black belt on November 3, 2007.
- Obtained assistant 3rd dan black belt on October 4, 2008.
- Final class at Chung Oh's School on March 21, 2011.
Total number of tests @ Chung Oh’s: 19.

***Was originally a student as a child in the 1990's for a time, but rejoined at white belt as an adult.

PROMOTIONS @ BAEHR TAEKWONDO:
- Joined on March 23, 2011
- Obtained 3rd dan black belt on March 23, 2011.
- Obtained senior 3rd dan black belt on November 21, 2013.
- Obtained 4th dan black belt on September 27, 2015.
- Obtained 5th dan black belt on March 27, 2021.
- Obtained 6th dan black belt on March 20, 2022.
- Obtained 7th dan black belt on December 8, 2023.
Total number of tests @ Baehr Taekwondo: 6.

(Because some of the earlier tests were way too long in coming, some of the latter ones have been made sooner than they otherwise would have been.)

At my school there are two levels between each Dan level up until 4th Dan. (At Chung Oh's school there were 3 levels between each Dan level.)

Hmm, three different 1st (Dan) black belts and 23 years to 7th Dan? That dog does not hunt.

 

[BaehrTKD]

Correction - The Demo may have been 1954 - not 1952. I have an article published in TKD Times containing this dare. PM me with an e-mail if you would like me to send you a copy in PDF.

Sure. You can reach me here:
chrisbaehr1978@gmail.com

They do have a log at the HQ in Vienna. It is not easy to get information from them however I was fortunate to recently obtain a replacement for my lost first Dan Certificate from 1976.

I still have my ITF certificates sitting in a drawer. Never did get around to finding a picture frame for them.

When the time came to leave Chung Oh's School, I got my credentials ITF verified. However, since they wanted me to test with ITF-certified instructors from that point on, and there were none around where I lived, it was sort of pointless. I was also worried that they were going to try to change everything we were doing (our style) and that was a non-starter for me, but I digress.

 

[BaehrTKD]

Hmm, three different 1st (Dan) black belts and 23 years to 7th Dan? That dog does not hunt.

I got 1st Dan black belt in Nov. 2003. There aren't three different black belts, only one.

Chung Oh's School required 3 tests for every Dan level of black belt.

Example:
- 1st Dan
- Senior 1st Dan
- Assistant 2nd Dan
- 2nd Dan
- etc...

 

[HighKick]

I got 1st Dan black belt in Nov. 2003. There aren't three different black belts, only one.

Chung Oh's School required 3 tests for every Dan level of black belt.

Example:
- 1st Dan
- Senior 1st Dan
- Assistant 2nd Dan
- 2nd Dan
- etc...

Potato, potahto

 

[BaehrTKD]

Potato, potahto

They definitely knew how to get paid.

That's why I'm saying most of those Dan levels were unnecessary and only added delay to the inevitable.

 

[HighKick]

They definitely knew how to get paid.

That's why I'm saying most of those Dan levels were unnecessary and only added delay to the inevitable.

It you do the simple math of adding the belt ranks together (1 to 7) to get the years required, the math does not add up. Having step promotions in between would not matter (except for the money grabs).
Time in grade is still very important. By my math, you are one maybe two ranks ahead even if there were no time skips in training, which is very rare.

I started and 1984 and did have some significant skips, both from absence/injury and other training other styles. I am 7th MDK TKD, 5th KKW TKD, 1st Kali, 1st Shotokan. They are just numbers.

 

[BaehrTKD]

It you do the simple math of adding the belt ranks together (1 to 7) to get the years required, the math does not add up. Having step promotions in between would not matter (except for the money grabs).
Time in grade is still very important. By my math, you are one maybe two ranks ahead even if there were no time skips in training, which is very rare.

I started and 1984 and did have some significant skips, both from absence/injury and other training other styles. I am 7th MDK TKD, 5th KKW TKD, 1st Kali, 1st Shotokan. They are just numbers.

I agree, but we generally don't follow the ITF guidelines for time in rank. At Chung Oh's School, they do 3 years per Dan level on average. I decided to do the same, although I do believe reaching 8th and 9th Dan levels should require more than 3 years each. It's definitely not something that I take lightly. Nobody at Chung Oh's School ever reached 8th or 9th Dan except his two sons, and the latter is questionable because his youngest son (who I've been told was disowned by his father for not following his instruction) has been calling himself a 9th Dan black belt for years and years now, and he's maybe 50 years old today. Since I have the ability to set my own curriculum, I think it's reasonable that 8th and 9th Dan should take at least 5 years each, maybe more. That seems to be the standard that Chung Oh was held to.

I also look at overall time rather than time in one specific Dan. If someone spends far too long in one Dan level they don't need to spend the full time in the next Dan level as well, especially if they were qualified to test all along.

I've known many students who went away for long periods of time (usually to start a family) and then rejoined several years later, having to re-learn much of what they had forgotten. Other students would take summers off and then reappear in September. While age and injuries have slowed me down in recent years, I've never stopped doing Taekwondo and Hapkido as an adult. More than that, I've never stopped studying it, and I keep finding new things. A lot of people "do" TKD but they're not thinking about what they're doing or why.

You're right. At the end of the day they're just numbers.

 

[skribs]

I do all of the patterns, step-sparring movements, weapons, or whatever is required for that belt level... just as if I was doing it at Chung Oh's School. At one test for example, I did all 24 patterns, one after another from white belt on up, did every step-sparring set in my entire curriculum, and did knife fighting attacks/movements.

My curriculum is largely the same curriculum that was taught at Chung Oh's School. It should be noted that at Chung Oh's School, there were no new patterns or techniques to learn beyond 3rd dan black belt level. Students would create their own techniques and demonstrate them. (Sam-Il was the final ITF pattern at Chung Oh's.)

Tests become more ceremonial as you go up in rank, because you have nothing to prove any more.

By what criteria or authority are you getting your rank?

If you're self-promoted past 3rd Dan, why shouldn't I just do the same, instead of going through a virtual mentorship?

Actually it was just over 20 years. I received my 1st Dan black belt in Nov. 2003.

You're right, slightly over 20. But that's still less than 21, and far less than 28.

Had I tested at Chung Oh's in 2009, 2010, and 2011 before I left, (all tests that I voluntarily skipped), I would have been assistant 4th Dan in 2011. So realistically, 4th Dan black belt should have come in 2012. Despite skipping five test sessions (2 per year) I was still the highest ranked student at their Kitchener school when I left.

For the time period from 2008 to 2015 I only went from 3rd to 4th. That's 7 years of full time training where I opted not to test multiple times, even though I was eligible.

So realistically, it's 4th Dan to 7th Dan in 11 years.

4th to 7th should take either 15 years or 18 years, depending on whether you're on a "per current rank" or "per next rank" system. Even if we assume that you should've been a 4th dan in 2011, you should've gotten 6th dan in 2020 or 2022 (minimum) and be 3 or 1 years (respectively) towards 7th.

I wouldn't be against these numbers if you were promoted by someone above you. It's not unheard of for someone to skip faster if there is a good reason for it (although it typically involves getting to a point with specific privileges, like the right to be an instructor or open your own school, and not ceremonial ranks beyond), or it involves a transfer or other specific circumstances.

I also wouldn't be against the idea of self-promotion (it actually is something I'm considering if this virtual mentor idea doesn't work out). It's the two together - the self-promotion through a faster timeline - that makes it suspect.

I got my 3rd degree in August of 2018. I should've tested for 4th degree in December of 2021 (maybe June, if he would've let me), but my tests kept getting pushed back for one reason or another. I made it through 4 of 4 in-between tests, so really I was 80% there already, and my Master had said that at any other school I'd be a 4th degree. I'm now working on my own curriculum and forms on the side, but my active martial arts training is in BJJ and MT. One thing I'm considering is if I open my own school and I can't find a mentor to continue my progress, do I start myself at 3rd or 4th, with the understanding that 3rd degree is generally not considered high enough in TKD to open a school, and self-promotion is generally frowned upon in martial arts.

But if I open my school 3 years from now, when I'm hopefully a purple belt in BJJ and have a few years of Muay Thai under my belt, I'm not going to look through and go:

"December 2021 I should've been a 4th degree, and 4 years from that is December 2025, it's now December 2026, so I easily should be a 5th degree by now, I'll start my school as a 5th degree."

Instead, I'll look through and go:

"I was a 3rd degree. I can justify to myself why I should be a 4th degree, but I don't know if the pros of being 'Master Level' will outweigh the cons of 'How did he get that belt?'"

I would be weighing the options between 3rd and 4th based on optics, not doing the math of what degree I'm owed based on what should've happened if I hadn't had a falling out with my old school.

But you have to consider that they were only open four days per week. (M-Th). Friday was black belt class.

They were also closed for a week during summer and a week during Christmas, plus they were closed on statutory holidays.

Once you weigh those factors in, you can see that I was there about 75% of the time. 3 out of every 4 available class days that I could have trained, I trained.

And yes, that's only counting classes I was training in. Teaching was separate from that. I taught one day per week consistently for 7 of those 10.5 years, and at times it went up to two days per week.

It might be a lot at that school, but it's still not a lot in general. My school only had 1 Hapkido class per week. I went to 90%+ of the Hapkido classes. That doesn't mean I learned a lot of Hapkido relative to folks who train it even 2-3 days per week. It just means I learned a lot compared to the others at my school.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I think most schools ignore the ITF guidelines for rank progression because they're just too long.

I certainly cannot speak to all the groups out there concerning their current procedures but before General Choi's death I had a certificate kicked back because they miscalculated the Time in grade with an IIC credit. After explanation the issue was resolved. Point being a school cannot ignore the organizational requirements because the organization would not issue the certificate.