Looking for a Taekwondo mentor

Status
Not open for further replies.

Earl Weiss

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
3,599
Reaction score
942
Sure. You can reach me here:
[email protected]


I still have my ITF certificates sitting in a drawer. Never did get around to finding a picture frame for them. :)
They were a goofy size. Put mine in a file. Do you have the issue dates and numbers? Would be interesting to see how the Canadian numbers Played out.

My "A" (For American) numbers were 1-1922, 2-283. 3-148, 4-101, 5-58, 6-39, 7-28 (2002) and then the ITF imploded.

I sent an e -mail and I am attempting to attach a copy of the article about GM Nam and early days of TKD.
 

Attachments

  • NamTaeHiTKDTimesJan.2000.pdf
    1.6 MB · Views: 14

BaehrTKD

Green Belt
Joined
Dec 16, 2023
Messages
136
Reaction score
21
They were a goofy size. Put mine in a file. Do you have the issue dates and numbers? Would be interesting to see how the Canadian numbers Played out.

My "A" (For American) numbers were 1-1922, 2-283. 3-148, 4-101, 5-58, 6-39, 7-28 (2002) and then the ITF imploded.

I sent an e -mail and I am attempting to attach a copy of the article about GM Nam and early days of TKD.

I only have two official ITF Dan certificates and my instructor plaque. When I left Chung Oh School in 2011, I sent the ITF copies of my certificates from Chung Oh's and they sent me back ITF certificates for the Chung Oh certificates I had at that time. My next test was going to be for full 3rd Dan at Chung Oh's (the one I kept bypassing over and over again in 2009 and 2010 because I didn't want to sign their non-compete agreement if I was going to be starting my own school), but I didn't get credit for that by the ITF for being "assistant 3rd Dan". If I had wanted to test with the ITF, I think I would have had to either drive to Toronto or Ottawa (I forget which) to find the nearest ITF-certified official/judge to test me, so I never bothered with it.

(In any event, I dug them out.)

I am C-1-5720 and C-2-1551. They are dated to match the test dates at Chung Oh's School.

I think the ITF certificates look really good, but it's highly unlikely I'll ever have another one because I'm not going to "unlearn" the style of Taekwondo that I learned at Chung Oh's School to do things the ITF approved way.
 

Earl Weiss

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
3,599
Reaction score
942
I am C-1-5720 and C-2-1551. They are dated to match the test dates at Chung Oh's School.
It's interesting to see how many people dropped out from 1st to 2nd Dan. In my case it's 85% and in yours 73% but likely more if yours were transfers.
 

BaehrTKD

Green Belt
Joined
Dec 16, 2023
Messages
136
Reaction score
21
I think the ITF certificates look really good, but it's highly unlikely I'll ever have another one because I'm not going to "unlearn" the style of Taekwondo that I learned at Chung Oh's School to do things the ITF approved way.
That should say "the more modern ITF Legacy Guide book way".

I consider Chung Oh's School to be "ITF way", even if it is an older style and even if our patterns are done a bit different. I think it's good to preserve that history.

Not to mention we learned pattern Ko-Dang, not Juche. There were certain "line in the sand" things that Chung Oh's School wasn't going to change no matter what.
 

BaehrTKD

Green Belt
Joined
Dec 16, 2023
Messages
136
Reaction score
21
It's interesting to see how many people dropped out from 1st to 2nd Dan. In my case it's 85% and in yours 73% but likely more if yours were transfers.

It would have been nice to get my full 3rd Dan before I left Chung Oh's (in hindsight) because I could have seen one more massive drop off. But either way, I would have been stuck at 2nd or 3rd as far as ITF certifications go anyway because Chung Oh's School was not ITF certified, and the only other Taekwondo school in town was a WTF style school. There were no other ITF-certified instructors anywhere near me who could verify my skills and/or test me. (But now we have YouTube, so everyone can see my channel. Shameless plug, I know.)

I asked my instructor one time if they were ITF-certified and they told me they didn't want to pay the fees to be certified, so their certificates were recognized by the ITF even without them being a paying member.
 

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
23,506
Reaction score
9,307
Location
Pueblo West, CO
[TL/DR] So, short version. You trained at a school under an instructor the details of whose own training history seems somewhat difficult to confirm, and may be mildly inflated (pretty common. For example, "trained the Korean military" is claimed by just about every Korean immigrant instructor, and is pretty much meaningless. I've had police officers in my class. So I guess I can advertise that I trained the police force.). Made it to 2nd Dan and then left under what seems to be somewhat acrimonious circumstances (it would be interesting to hear the other side of that story) and then self-promoted to 7th Dan. Why try to obfuscate the details? How do you think General Choi and the other founders got their ranks? They self-promoted.
 

bluepanther

Orange Belt
Joined
Nov 18, 2023
Messages
96
Reaction score
19
When the time came to leave Chung Oh's School, I got my credentials ITF verified. However, since they wanted me to test with ITF-certified instructors from that point on, and there were none around where I lived, it was sort of pointless.
So as far as official ITF rank, you hold a 2 Dan, correct?
 

bluepanther

Orange Belt
Joined
Nov 18, 2023
Messages
96
Reaction score
19
If you're self-promoted past 3rd Dan, why shouldn't I just do the same, instead of going through a virtual mentorship?
You should. Since you will be teaching your own curriculum it would make more sense than self promoting to teach a set curriculum in which you never achieved a high level of master rank.
 

Earl Weiss

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
3,599
Reaction score
942
. For example, "trained the Korean military" is claimed by just about every Korean immigrant instructor, and is pretty much meaningless.
How many times have I heard "Personal Student of General Choi? " Or that they knew him etc. For the most parts those names can be found in his Biography and other historical works.
 

BaehrTKD

Green Belt
Joined
Dec 16, 2023
Messages
136
Reaction score
21
[TL/DR] So, short version. You trained at a school under an instructor the details of whose own training history seems somewhat difficult to confirm, and may be mildly inflated (pretty common. For example, "trained the Korean military" is claimed by just about every Korean immigrant instructor, and is pretty much meaningless.
Oh I see where this is going and I think you would be way wrong to question the credentials of my instructor. People don't often talk about their history. My grandfather never once talked about the war, yet he fought in World War II and I can give you all the documentation to prove it if you don't believe that either.

Why would my instructor start talking about 1960's Korea out of the blue? For what reason? Over time we picked up tidbits of information here and there, but nobody ever sat down and talked about how it all began.

Everyone wants to believe that they learned from the greatest TKD instructor. I get it. However, few people can claim what I can. My instructor was Korean-born and raised. (There goes 99% of all TKD instructors out the window.) My instructor was one of the original black belts in TKD. My instructor immigrated to Canada along with General Choi. My instructor ran the largest collection of TKD schools in southern Ontario. My instructor was open and operating his school in 1973. General Choi lived 45 minutes away from us. ITF headquarters was here in Canada. We were at the epicenter of Taekwondo. Whether you choose to believe me or not is your choice, but it's absolutely the truth.

I've had police officers in my class. So I guess I can advertise that I trained the police force.). Made it to 2nd Dan
3rd dan. (Assistant 3rd was considered to be 3rd at Chung Oh's School.) Again, you're beginning to fudge things in an attempt to discredit me. I get it. I knew that's where this thread was going all along, and it's why I normally don't bother with forums. I'm simply not going to get into rank-based arguments because I know that people are jealous and resentful of where I'm at. People are always trying to discredit and defame others, and I won't be part of it.

and then left under what seems to be somewhat acrimonious circumstances (it would be interesting to hear the other side of that story)
By all means ask them. I already told you what happened, and it's the truth. I told them I was planning to open my own school to teach people privately on the side (since all of their other branch instructors were being paid to teach). I was teaching for free at their Kitchener main school. They told me not to open my own school. We negotiated for a bit back and forth, and couldn't reach any agreement, so they told me I couldn't train there if I was going to run my own school. That's EXACTLY what happened and there's only TWO people who were privy to those discussions: Inn and myself. Inn has since died.

Chung Oh's School was very protective of their business. They viewed other TKD schools as a threat, and they were terrified at the notion of me opening a school they didn't have complete control of, and me potentially competing against them, knowing everything that I know (which was their full curriculum).

and then self-promoted to 7th Dan.
Promoted over a period of 12 years.

Why try to obfuscate the details?
I've literally given ALL the details including my full test history for transparency. I didn't hide anything!

How do you think General Choi and the other founders got their ranks? They self-promoted.
I'm confused. Are you being critical of them for doing so or just being critical of me for testing myself up in level since leaving Chung Oh's School (in the absence of other instructors in my area doing ITF-style TKD)?

It was literally me or them, and I wasn't going to go back to them unless they were okay with me having a school doing private instruction.
 

BaehrTKD

Green Belt
Joined
Dec 16, 2023
Messages
136
Reaction score
21
How many times have I heard "Personal Student of General Choi? " Or that they knew him etc. For the most parts those names can be found in his Biography and other historical works.

You may have heard it multiple times, but in the case of my instructor it's actually true.
 

BaehrTKD

Green Belt
Joined
Dec 16, 2023
Messages
136
Reaction score
21
So in any event, I believe this thread started with someone looking for a Taekwondo mentor!

I'm not sure what level the person is at who was requesting, but if you would like to learn then I'm willing to teach. A great place to start would be my Lessons playlist on YouTube:

As an aside, you'll note that I've never questioned anyone else's credentials here. I have taken you at your word and trusted that you are the rank you claim to be. I ask you to do the same of me. That's literally all I ask. Not everyone is ITF-certified. Not being ITF-certified to a given rank does not mean the person isn't that rank.
 

BaehrTKD

Green Belt
Joined
Dec 16, 2023
Messages
136
Reaction score
21
By what criteria or authority are you getting your rank?
My school's curriculum and authority. I have to be able to practice what I preach, and I have mastered that curriculum. I have a well-defined curriculum for Taekwondo and Hapkido, learned from Chung Oh, and that's what I teach.

You forget that Chung Oh didn't teach any ITF patterns beyond Sam-Il. I decided to learn Yoo-Sin and Choi-Yong on my own, make them "mine" so to speak (unique to my school), and then called it a day. The remaining ITF patterns are mostly repetition of existing movements, and some of them are quite long. I studied them extensively, pulled what I needed out, and put it into Yoo-Sin and Choi-Yong to complete my school's pattern set.

The people who stayed at Chung Oh's School beyond 3rd Dan level didn't learn any additional patterns or techniques beyond what I already knew. It was just a formality at that point.

I have 6 patterns that are of my own design (like Chung Oh did) and the rest are ITF patterns, to make 24 total.

If you're self-promoted past 3rd Dan, why shouldn't I just do the same, instead of going through a virtual mentorship?
At the end of the day, if you believe you've earned it, I'd take you at your word for it. Why do you need validation from others?

You're either being true to yourself or you're lying to yourself.

If someone comes to me and wants help with pattern Sam-Il, I don't know what rank they actually are. I don't do background checks on them. But I can certainly work with them on it regardless. It would become apparent pretty quickly if they were fibbing.

You're right, slightly over 20. But that's still less than 21, and far less than 28.
The guidelines are for the average student. I am not average!

While I would never boast and say that I was the best student they ever had (because it's not true), I was definitely the best overall student they had during the decade that I was there, and a number of people will back that up. There have been other really good students who came before me, and I'm sure there have been great ones since, but I was "top dog" during my time there. I set the example that everyone else followed. I led every kicking line during training drills. I demonstrated every technique for others to learn from. I held the highest rank position in class when we lined up at the beginning and end and did our foundation movements. Many of the students I taught at Chung Oh's School are now 5th Dan black belt.

4th to 7th should take either 15 years or 18 years, depending on whether you're on a "per current rank" or "per next rank" system. Even if we assume that you should've been a 4th dan in 2011, you should've gotten 6th dan in 2020 or 2022 (minimum) and be 3 or 1 years (respectively) towards 7th.

I wouldn't be against these numbers if you were promoted by someone above you. It's not unheard of for someone to skip faster if there is a good reason for it (although it typically involves getting to a point with specific privileges, like the right to be an instructor or open your own school, and not ceremonial ranks beyond), or it involves a transfer or other specific circumstances.

I also wouldn't be against the idea of self-promotion (it actually is something I'm considering if this virtual mentor idea doesn't work out). It's the two together - the self-promotion through a faster timeline - that makes it suspect.
I understand that there are always going to be skeptics, but I assure you it's earned and legit.

There are 6 Dans from 1st to 7th (2,3,4,5,6,7). I have progressed at a rate of one Dan level every 3.3 years on average. (20/6).

While it may be hard to believe, there was nobody above me in my area in ITF Taekwondo after I left Chung Oh's School. I left as the top student. Only Chung Oh, his sons, and Mike Malleck (who runs a Chung Oh's branch school) were higher rank. Everyone else had retired from the school (no longer active) and the other schools in the area were WTF.

When you're at the top of the mountain there's no more mountain to climb.

I got my 3rd degree in August of 2018. I should've tested for 4th degree in December of 2021 (maybe June, if he would've let me), but my tests kept getting pushed back for one reason or another. I made it through 4 of 4 in-between tests, so really I was 80% there already, and my Master had said that at any other school I'd be a 4th degree. I'm now working on my own curriculum and forms on the side, but my active martial arts training is in BJJ and MT. One thing I'm considering is if I open my own school and I can't find a mentor to continue my progress, do I start myself at 3rd or 4th, with the understanding that 3rd degree is generally not considered high enough in TKD to open a school, and self-promotion is generally frowned upon in martial arts.
Many students flock to the instructor that has the highest listed rank. No avoiding it. But if you fudge your rank, students will know. Based on what you've said, I'd say you should start at 4th Dan black belt. Be truthful and build up only as you gain knowledge and experience and time.

Why not do a test for me? Show me Sam-Il, Yoo-Sin, and Choi-Yong. (The 3rd Dan patterns.) I won't judge your style or how you learned them. Show me that you know them. Are you testing for Taekwondo? (I can't help you with BJJ.)

I'd also run you through some foundation movements to verify that you can perform a variety of different Taekwondo techniques at a high level.

But if I open my school 3 years from now, when I'm hopefully a purple belt in BJJ and have a few years of Muay Thai under my belt, I'm not going to look through and go:

"December 2021 I should've been a 4th degree, and 4 years from that is December 2025, it's now December 2026, so I easily should be a 5th degree by now, I'll start my school as a 5th degree."

Instead, I'll look through and go:

"I was a 3rd degree. I can justify to myself why I should be a 4th degree, but I don't know if the pros of being 'Master Level' will outweigh the cons of 'How did he get that belt?'"
If you're there, you're there. You know it inside when you're ready. I've never once gone into a test without knowing that I was ready.

I would be weighing the options between 3rd and 4th based on optics, not doing the math of what degree I'm owed based on what should've happened if I hadn't had a falling out with my old school.

It might be a lot at that school, but it's still not a lot in general. My school only had 1 Hapkido class per week. I went to 90%+ of the Hapkido classes. That doesn't mean I learned a lot of Hapkido relative to folks who train it even 2-3 days per week. It just means I learned a lot compared to the others at my school.
Hapkido and Taekwondo are more similar than they are different. By learning one you are learning the other. Hapkido gives you the grappling and weapons that Taekwondo is missing. Taekwondo gives you the patterns.

I asked my instructor what our skills were in Hapkido. He said if we were 3rd Dan in TKD, we were also 3rd Dan in HKD.
 

BaehrTKD

Green Belt
Joined
Dec 16, 2023
Messages
136
Reaction score
21
I certainly cannot speak to all the groups out there concerning their current procedures but before General Choi's death I had a certificate kicked back because they miscalculated the Time in grade with an IIC credit. After explanation the issue was resolved. Point being a school cannot ignore the organizational requirements because the organization would not issue the certificate.

You're assuming the school is ITF-certified. Chung Oh's School wasn't.

Only ITF-certified schools follow those rules/guidelines.
 
OP
skribs

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
7,575
Reaction score
2,581
My school's curriculum and authority. I have to be able to practice what I preach, and I have mastered that curriculum. I have a well-defined curriculum for Taekwondo and Hapkido, learned from Chung Oh, and that's what I teach.
You should have mastered your own curriculum. I'd consider that bare minimum.
You forget that Chung Oh didn't teach any ITF patterns beyond Sam-Il. I decided to learn Yoo-Sin and Choi-Yong on my own, make them "mine" so to speak (unique to my school), and then called it a day. The remaining ITF patterns are mostly repetition of existing movements, and some of them are quite long. I studied them extensively, pulled what I needed out, and put it into Yoo-Sin and Choi-Yong to complete my school's pattern set.
I don't see what this has to do with anything. This may be a qualification for you. For me, this is "Well so-and-so did something." I don't know who Chung Oh is, or what he did, or why he did it.
The people who stayed at Chung Oh's School beyond 3rd Dan level didn't learn any additional patterns or techniques beyond what I already knew. It was just a formality at that point.
Not learning more forms doesn't mean they weren't learning.
At the end of the day, if you believe you've earned it, I'd take you at your word for it. Why do you need validation from others?

You're either being true to yourself or you're lying to yourself.

Then why do you need to be a 7th degree?

If people Google "Skribs Taekwondo school" and see rank that looks suspicious, it's going to hurt my reputation more than help it.

And if you're giving lessons and credentials to people while claiming a rank you did not earn, you're flirting with fraud. I'm not going to outright accuse you of it, but I know others would.
If someone comes to me and wants help with pattern Sam-Il, I don't know what rank they actually are. I don't do background checks on them. But I can certainly work with them on it regardless. It would become apparent pretty quickly if they were fibbing.
I don't see what this has to do with the discussion.

Also, I don't know Sam-Il. I've never even heard of it. Do I deserve to be [whatever belt is before Sam-Il] because I don't know it?
The guidelines are for the average student. I am not average!
No, the guidelines are minimums. The average student shouldn't be at the minimums. Heck, the average student shouldn't even make it past 1st dan.

By whose standards are you above average? Your own. This makes your rank look more like self-indulgence than an actual achievement.
While I would never boast and say that I was the best student they ever had (because it's not true), I was definitely the best overall student they had during the decade that I was there, and a number of people will back that up. There have been other really good students who came before me, and I'm sure there have been great ones since, but I was "top dog" during my time there. I set the example that everyone else followed. I led every kicking line during training drills. I demonstrated every technique for others to learn from. I held the highest rank position in class when we lined up at the beginning and end and did our foundation movements. Many of the students I taught at Chung Oh's School are now 5th Dan black belt.
I can say a lot of the same for myself, but that doesn't mean I deserve to be 7th degree.

Just because people you used to teach are now a higher rank doesn't mean you deserve that rank. If I were to find out 10 years from now that someone I used to teach is 5th degree, is that a qualification for 6th? No, because I didn't get them to 5th.
I understand that there are always going to be skeptics, but I assure you it's earned and legit.

There are 6 Dans from 1st to 7th (2,3,4,5,6,7). I have progressed at a rate of one Dan level every 3.3 years on average. (20/6).
That's not how the math works. Each Dan takes progressively longer, so you can't just look at the average.

If you require number of years equal to current rank in order to reach the next rank (i.e. 3rd Dan requires 3 years to get to 4th), it should take 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 = 21 years to get from 1st to 7th. That's an average of 3.5 years per belt to get there. Which is higher than the length it took you.

If it's a number of years equal to the next rank in order to reach the next rank (i.e. 3rd Dan requires 4 years to get to 4th), it should take 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 to get from 1st to 7th, an average of 4.5 years per belt to get there.

While it may be hard to believe, there was nobody above me in my area in ITF Taekwondo after I left Chung Oh's School. I left as the top student. Only Chung Oh, his sons, and Mike Malleck (who runs a Chung Oh's branch school) were higher rank. Everyone else had retired from the school (no longer active) and the other schools in the area were WTF.

When you're at the top of the mountain there's no more mountain to climb.
This doesn't address the point you quoted. Yes, I get that you had to forge your own way after leaving your organization. But that doesn't mean you should self-promote beyond what even the most apologetic of critics (such as myself) would see as legitimate.

As I said, if you would have self-promoted to 4th degree when you opened your own school in 2011, and then self-promoted to 5th in 2015-2016 and to 6th in 2020-2022, that would have made sense to me. Or, since you promoted yourself to 5th in 2021, if you would have held off on self-promoting to 6th until 2026-2027, and then 7th until 2032-2034, then that would have made sense.

But since you've accelerated yourself under your own authority, it does not look legitimate.
Many students flock to the instructor that has the highest listed rank. No avoiding it. But if you fudge your rank, students will know. Based on what you've said, I'd say you should start at 4th Dan black belt. Be truthful and build up only as you gain knowledge and experience and time.
Ironic that you should say this.
Why not do a test for me? Show me Sam-Il, Yoo-Sin, and Choi-Yong. (The 3rd Dan patterns.) I won't judge your style or how you learned them. Show me that you know them. Are you testing for Taekwondo? (I can't help you with BJJ.)

I'd also run you through some foundation movements to verify that you can perform a variety of different Taekwondo techniques at a high level.
If you're there, you're there. You know it inside when you're ready. I've never once gone into a test without knowing that I was ready.
The second part makes sense to me. The first does not. I've never even heard of these forms.
Hapkido and Taekwondo are more similar than they are different. By learning one you are learning the other. Hapkido gives you the grappling and weapons that Taekwondo is missing. Taekwondo gives you the patterns.

I asked my instructor what our skills were in Hapkido. He said if we were 3rd Dan in TKD, we were also 3rd Dan in HKD.
In my experience they are very different. This just seems like a cheap way of claiming rank in multiple martial arts.

-----

I think you've figured it out by my responses here, but I will not be looking to use you as a mentor. It's not just the comments here. I looked at the way you've organized your videos on youtube, and your curriculum is the kind of rigid structure I'm trying to mostly move away from. I just don't think we see eye-to-eye on anything.
 

BaehrTKD

Green Belt
Joined
Dec 16, 2023
Messages
136
Reaction score
21
You should have mastered your own curriculum. I'd consider that bare minimum.
I agree, and I have.

Not learning more forms doesn't mean they weren't learning.
I can say the exact same thing. I have learned from a variety of different sources (online, books, and in person) since leaving Chung Oh's School.

Then why do you need to be a 7th degree?
It's not something I need. It's what I am.

I haven't needed any ranks in Taekwondo at all. They come naturally over time with training, teaching, reflection, and overall experience. It's the ITF that instituted the concept of ranks and belts for Taekwondo, and it existed in other martial arts prior to that.

Perhaps the biggest drawback to learning Taekwondo is the inevitable "rank envy" and "politics" that comes with it. Everything becomes about rank and what people think you "ought" to have based on some faulty or generalized notion of "service time" that they cling to. It doesn't take 40 years to learn Taekwondo.


If people Google "Skribs Taekwondo school" and see rank that looks suspicious, it's going to hurt my reputation more than help it.
Know thyself.

And if you're giving lessons and credentials to people while claiming a rank you did not earn, you're flirting with fraud. I'm not going to outright accuse you of it, but I know others would.
I have earned every rank that I have. The only difference is I didn't pay an exorbitant fee to get the most recent ones.

I know there are others who might accuse me of that, but I don't claim to be ITF-certified, so there is no fraud.

If ITF certification matters to people, they will need to train elsewhere. Chung Oh's School wasn't ITF-certified either, and it was the largest school in southern Ontario. Never bothered me at all.


Also, I don't know Sam-Il. I've never even heard of it. Do I deserve to be [whatever belt is before Sam-Il] because I don't know it?
Pattern Sam-Il is the first pattern taught to 3rd Dan black belts.

At my school, you would be required to know Sam-Il and Yoo-Sin and Choi-Yong to be able to test for 4th Dan (Master) black belt.

After that, we don't teach any of the remaining ITF patterns.

By whose standards are you above average? Your own. This makes your rank look more like self-indulgence than an actual achievement.
By Chung Oh's standards. Again, this has been covered ad naseum.

I can say a lot of the same for myself, but that doesn't mean I deserve to be 7th degree.

Just because people you used to teach are now a higher rank doesn't mean you deserve that rank. If I were to find out 10 years from now that someone I used to teach is 5th degree, is that a qualification for 6th? No, because I didn't get them to 5th.
That would be true if I had retired but I didn't.

I don't have to personally get someone up to a particular rank to be that rank.

My point is, in the time they were learning to get to where they are, I was learning beyond that. The only way they "catch up" in rank is if I retire from Taekwondo.

That's not how the math works. Each Dan takes progressively longer, so you can't just look at the average.
These are made-up rules that not everyone follows!

If you require number of years equal to current rank in order to reach the next rank (i.e. 3rd Dan requires 3 years to get to 4th), it should take 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 = 21 years to get from 1st to 7th. That's an average of 3.5 years per belt to get there. Which is higher than the length it took you.

If it's a number of years equal to the next rank in order to reach the next rank (i.e. 3rd Dan requires 4 years to get to 4th), it should take 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 to get from 1st to 7th, an average of 4.5 years per belt to get there.
This is why Taekwondo is dying. The bureacracy has killed it. It's absurd.

It takes as long as it takes. There is no fixed period of time that it "should" take.

The more you train and learn, the faster you get there.

This doesn't address the point you quoted. Yes, I get that you had to forge your own way after leaving your organization. But that doesn't mean you should self-promote beyond what even the most apologetic of critics (such as myself) would see as legitimate.
Again, I'm the only person being questioned here. Nobody has done a "colonoscopy" of the legitimacy of anyone else here in this forum. It just seems like a witch hunt to me.

I came here to bounce ideas off my peers, not to be investigated.

I'll put my skills and knowledge up against anyone here of equal rank. I am absolutely legitimate in every way.

As I said, if you would have self-promoted to 4th degree when you opened your own school in 2011, and then self-promoted to 5th in 2015-2016 and to 6th in 2020-2022, that would have made sense to me. Or, since you promoted yourself to 5th in 2021, if you would have held off on self-promoting to 6th until 2026-2027, and then 7th until 2032-2034, then that would have made sense.
Originally I was going to follow the ITF system you described earlier but I decided as a former Chung Oh student to adopt their system instead. (3 years for almost every Dan level.)

I opened as 3rd Dan in 2011.

By Chung Oh: 4th (2014), 5th (2017), 6th (2020), 7th (2023).
By ITF: 4th (2015), 5th (2020), 6th (2026), 7th (2033).

But since you've accelerated yourself under your own authority, it does not look legitimate.
It's perfectly in line with Chung Oh's School and that's the authority/model that I follow.

With the ITF, black belt comes after red belt. Chung Oh added a belt there. 2nd to 3rd should take 2 years. Chung Oh added a year there. It tends to balance out over time.

Ironic that you should say this.

The second part makes sense to me. The first does not. I've never even heard of these forms.
Well they are there. Learn them!

In my experience they are very different. This just seems like a cheap way of claiming rank in multiple martial arts.
Well your experience is different from mine.

I learned from an instructor that was 9th Dan in both of them. I trust him.

I think you've figured it out by my responses here, but I will not be looking to use you as a mentor. It's not just the comments here. I looked at the way you've organized your videos on youtube, and your curriculum is the kind of rigid structure I'm trying to mostly move away from. I just don't think we see eye-to-eye on anything.

That's fine. I like having things well structured and organized.

The videos are free to watch, so maybe you'll pick up some things from them anyway.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
23,530
Reaction score
8,201
[TL/DR] So, short version. You trained at a school under an instructor the details of whose own training history seems somewhat difficult to confirm, and may be mildly inflated (pretty common. For example, "trained the Korean military" is claimed by just about every Korean immigrant instructor, and is pretty much meaningless. I've had police officers in my class. So I guess I can advertise that I trained the police force.). Made it to 2nd Dan and then left under what seems to be somewhat acrimonious circumstances (it would be interesting to hear the other side of that story) and then self-promoted to 7th Dan. Why try to obfuscate the details? How do you think General Choi and the other founders got their ranks? They self-promoted.
Good job we don't do fraud busting here then. And we will just have to take him at his word
 

Earl Weiss

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
3,599
Reaction score
942
Over time we picked up tidbits of information here and there, but nobody ever sat down and talked about how it all began.
That is unfortunate. I had a couple occasions to speak about history with Han Cha Kyo. sadly he died before I really got a lot of information. It encouraged me to seek out Nam Tae Hi and the result is the article i linked above which to my knowledge contained information never before appearing in print and was quoted by later works sometimes with citation to my article and sometimes not.
 

Earl Weiss

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
3,599
Reaction score
942
You're assuming the school is ITF-certified. Chung Oh's School wasn't.

Only ITF-certified schools follow those rules/guidelines.

My post was in response to your statement copied an pasted below. about ITF schools not following ITF guidelines :

>>>>I think most schools ignore the ITF guidelines for rank progression because they're just too long.<<<<

Perhaps you meant ITF / Chang Hon Style" ???
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest Discussions

Top