Long form 3

[Touch Of Death]

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well this is where i am going to have to be a buzz kill to the kenpo fans,,you perspective @JowGaWolf is from a Chinese view point and tradition, Kenpo is purely an American innovation. Ed Parker never learnt any forms from Chow. all of kenpo's forms were created as an after thought to produce more material because Parker ran out of stuff to teach his students. most of the forms were created by James wing woo. other forms followed from many other teachers along the way.
the opening of this form is a copy of the movement from an old okinawan form called Kusanku.

Karate Kagami - Notes on the Kata Kanku-sho
"The precise meaning of Kanku-sho means 'viewing the sky' or 'viewing emptiness', minor version. Here are the kanji:

is for kan meaning view, look or appearance.

is for ku meaning sky, empty or void. You will probably recognise this as the kanji also for kara in karate - empty hand.

is for shou meaning little or small."
View attachment 21165

there is no application for this action. i guess one could invent something and obviously some one did in kenpo. but to me this action was borrowed from kusanku and added to the kenpo form to give it a feeling of authenticity where non exists.

orginally kenpo had no forms. then people started creating some and more and more and more. kenpo forms are lacking a lot of things that other Chinese and Okinawan forms have. this is why kenpo forms seem clunky and disjointed.

There is an application for leaving that position. You move like the human body moves.

 

[Touch Of Death]

SF 3 is a series of takedown techs, and nobody is wondering about making it all mean something or fit a larger pattern. Hit those bows, and we will be happy as clams.

 

[Headhunter]

I guess every school is different

Not really because by black belt (or earlier in some places) every single self defence technique has been taught to you and your tested on them so everyone by black belt should know those techniques inside out

 

[Headhunter]

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well this is where i am going to have to be a buzz kill to the kenpo fans,,you perspective @JowGaWolf is from a Chinese view point and tradition, Kenpo is purely an American innovation. Ed Parker never learnt any forms from Chow. all of kenpo's forms were created as an after thought to produce more material because Parker ran out of stuff to teach his students. most of the forms were created by James wing woo. other forms followed from many other teachers along the way.
the opening of this form is a copy of the movement from an old okinawan form called Kusanku.

Karate Kagami - Notes on the Kata Kanku-sho
"The precise meaning of Kanku-sho means 'viewing the sky' or 'viewing emptiness', minor version. Here are the kanji:

is for kan meaning view, look or appearance.

is for ku meaning sky, empty or void. You will probably recognise this as the kanji also for kara in karate - empty hand.

is for shou meaning little or small."
View attachment 21165

there is no application for this action. i guess one could invent something and obviously some one did in kenpo. but to me this action was borrowed from kusanku and added to the kenpo form to give it a feeling of authenticity where non exists.

orginally kenpo had no forms. then people started creating some and more and more and more. kenpo forms are lacking a lot of things that other Chinese and Okinawan forms have. this is why kenpo forms seem clunky and disjointed.

I'm a big kenpo fan but not really a Parker fan. I have no problem talking about the guys faults and I don't hold him up as a god like some do. I know a lot of the stuff was invented by his students or taken from other styles including the salutation. Funnily enough I actually saw in the movie dragon the bruce lee story, the guy playing bruce lee doing what is basically the kenpo salutation in a scene set in ed Parkers karate tournament which ed parker jr was playing his dad.

Now I do have a lot of respect for ed Parker he was obviously a very clever man and from videos he was obviously very fast for a guy his size and he did loads for karate in the west. But I know he had faults and it doesn't bother me at all knowing he didnt invent a lot of the stuff I don't care because I enjoy the system for what it is and I accept it's faults

 

[Touch Of Death]

I'm a big kenpo fan but not really a Parker fan. I have no problem talking about the guys faults and I don't hold him up as a god like some do. I know a lot of the stuff was invented by his students or taken from other styles including the salutation. Funnily enough I actually saw in the movie dragon the bruce lee story, the guy playing bruce lee doing what is basically the kenpo salutation in a scene set in ed Parkers karate tournament which ed parker jr was playing his dad.

Now I do have a lot of respect for ed Parker he was obviously a very clever man and from videos he was obviously very fast for a guy his size and he did loads for karate in the west. But I know he had faults and it doesn't bother me at all knowing he didnt invent a lot of the stuff I don't care because I enjoy the system for what it is and I accept it's faults

I wouldn't call not inventing martial arts moves a fault. What is to invent?

 

[hoshin1600]

If all the romantics are taken away from martial arts we are really talking about punching, kicking and generally just fighting so in a way it doesn't matter who taught who and what was what, as long as you fight. But human nature is one of ego, expectations and is very complex. Layers of the human psyche get added to the Primal ability to fight and that's where everything gets a little funky.
Often people judge others with black and white generalities. If we find someone has lied or been deceptive we will, like they do in court cases "throw out ones entire testimony" we will discount the entire person and everything they have done. Ignoring the good. Others will ignore the bad because they are invested in a positive outcome or outlook. They do not want the negative to reflect on themselves. Such is life. Those who wish to progress have to see through all this and focus on the truth for what it is and not be judgemental. "Take what is useful" and move on.

 

[Headhunter]

If all the romantics are taken away from martial arts we are really talking about punching, kicking and generally just fighting so in a way it doesn't matter who taught who and what was what, as long as you fight. But human nature is one of ego, expectations and is very complex. Layers of the human psyche get added to the Primal ability to fight and that's where everything gets a little funky.
Often people judge others with black and white generalities. If we find someone has lied or been deceptive we will, like they do in court cases "throw out ones entire testimony" we will discount the entire person and everything they have done. Ignoring the good. Others will ignore the bad because they are invested in a positive outcome or outlook. They do not want the negative to reflect on themselves. Such is life. Those who wish to progress have to see through all this and focus on the truth for what it is and not be judgemental. "Take what is useful" and move on.

Personally I've never cared about any of this. People on here have called me selfish for saying this but I don't care about who my founder is or who my instructors lineage is or who did what and who made what. All I care about is my training. Why should I worry about anyone else I'm training for me because I enjoy it no other reason

 

[hoshin1600]

Personally I've never cared about any of this. People on here have called me selfish for saying this but I don't care about who my founder is or who my instructors lineage is or who did what and who made what. All I care about is my training. Why should I worry about anyone else I'm training for me because I enjoy it no other reason

From a certain perspective you are absolutely correct. But there are aspects of training where it is important. Unless someone enjoys the practice of getting in fights on a regular basis some of our training is theoretical and some is based on assumption. In those cases we rely on those who have gone before us to fill in the voids of our own ignorance. It is important that the guidance we receive is correct.

 

[Headhunter]

From a certain perspective you are absolutely correct. But there are aspects of training where it is important. Unless someone enjoys the practice of getting in fights on a regular basis some of our training is theoretical and some is based on assumption. In those cases we rely on those who have gone before us to fill in the voids of our own ignorance. It is important that the guidance we receive is correct.

Yep and I prefer to make my own assumptions instead of blindly following someone else's. I'll listen to what the others say I'll accept what I believe works for me and ignore what doesn't. I don't treat every word they say as gospel text. I'm experienced to know enough about what works for me and my way of doing things. No of course I don't know everything and I'm happy to listen to anyone's advice no matter who it is but I'll analyse what they say and see if I agree or not

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

Interesting posts, just going to chime in with my humble opinion ; )

The meaning of movements in American Kenpo are not limited to a single correct and specific interpretation as is the initial approach of some traditional systems before students progress to the level equivalent to "closed-door disciple" and find out that what they thought was a very exact and correct application when their Sifu wanted them to get a good foundation is actually a many layered onion of applications depending on circumstances. Once the disciple trains the layers of application within a movement they will increase their ability to adapt to the chaos of combat and increase the usefulness of their traditional martial art.

Unfortunately, many students of traditional martial arts remain on the outside of the full scope of their chosen martial arts leaving them with a feeling of elitism for knowing only one right and correct way to execute a movement. The American Kenpo founder emphasized that the ideal phase is an idea and serves as a frame of reference for further exploration of what-if possibilities. It is when the student realizes this in Kenpo that it too becomes more useful in an actual altercation.

Kenpo can be as theoretical and based on assumptions as the practitioner wants to make it but my advice is to test your theories and assumptions through the exploration of the three phases and pressure test, improve on, rinse and repeat until your Kenpo is as far from theoretical as possible. If you want to know if a certain knife grip is more secure than another for the purposes of slashing against someone with a thick winter coat, work it on a tire wearing a thick winter coat, if you want to know if a certain footwork will get you to flank your attacker while at the same time loading your leg for a kick with enough time to execute the kick before your target adapts work it on skilled fighters and refine, refine, refine. Try not to make excuses to avoid testing because in the end someone may be counting on this stuff.

Lastly, I want to address the idea of authenticity in a martial art system. In my opinion its not about some mortal and flawed human being developing a systematic approach to martial arts training versus an immortal sage or divine being teaching it to a man while he slept as we all know that it was customary in the Asian martial arts to give things an older and divine origin to increase their value rather than admit that some guy who liked to fight consolidated his experiences into a system. After the communist take-over it became all the rage to advertise a martial art to sound like a high science and elevate it from merely an effective form of pugilism to "martial science" just as in Japan as peace took hold it became more in vogue to treat martial arts as ways of life leading to zen enlightenment than as a collection of techniques that destroy human life in combat. I am grateful that the founder of American Kenpo moved away from the custom of sugar-coating violence into something other than its self... his saying about when pure fists meet pure flesh rings true to me. Authentic and Pure versus contaminated and merely invented be a flawed human and other such statements betray the lack of experience with the raw truth of martial arts and show that the speaker is a bit gullible to believe that what they do is really invented by an immortal or deity etc. its kind of laughable...sorry to ramble its getting late.

I will end by saying sorry to everyone that I almost always seem to offend every time I post, so lets just get that out the way now, I am sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings of superiority just sharing my opinion.