Long form 3

[Flying Crane]

@Flying Crane
i think we agree on a lot about kenpo in general.

There are a couple of the beginner forms that I think have some potential, but they generally suffer from the same problems I outlined above, in how people tend to do them. Honestly, if they got some instruction from a good teacher from an appropriate Chinese or Okinawan system with the goal of understanding how to properly use their stances to root and drive their techniques, then some of these forms and some of the rest of the curriculum could be salvaged. That would also give them some perspective to begin to recognize why the other forms and other parts of the curriculum may not be salvageable.

 

[Headhunter]

Actually there is a specific meaning to the salute, and it isn't all that crazy.

Yes but there's no need to be doing it at the beginning of every single form either

 

[Touch Of Death]

Yes but there's no need to be doing it at the beginning of every single form either

Says you...

 

[Headhunter]

Says you...

Well yes says me....go on then why does it need to be done at the beginning of every single form

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well yes says me....go on then why does it need to be done at the beginning of every single form

First off, most people are terrible at it, and can use the practice. It is usually the most complex part of the form.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Also this is what the technique actually is its a nice technique. Realistically it would end at the first elbow but the rest is just a what if. Like if they block or it missed etc.

That takes the "magic" out of it. When I saw some of the forms, it was clear to me that they didn't have this in mind when doing the technique. It was more like going through the motion vs doing a technique with purpose and understanding. Unfortunately going through the motions is common as well, as not every application is taught for every technique. Some teacher will say what it is or what it's used for and leave it at that. The teacher doesn't show a practical application of a technique. I like seeing things like this video, especially with the step back to break the root. I'm a big fan of anything that breaks the opponents structure or root.

 

[Headhunter]

First off, most people are terrible at it, and can use the practice. It is usually the most complex part of the form.

Yeah but really who cares because it's nothing to do with actual fighting so it's irrelevant

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yeah but really who cares because it's nothing to do with actual fighting so it's irrelevant

Each part of the salutes are supposed to have a purpose/martial applications

 

[Touch Of Death]

Yeah but really who cares because it's nothing to do with actual fighting so it's irrelevant

That is where you are wrong.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Each part of the salutes are supposed to have a purpose/martial applications

That is what I was taught.

 

[Headhunter]

That is where you are wrong.

Then explain...you seem to be unable to do that part as I've already asked you to explain but you ignored that.

 

[Headhunter]

Each part of the salutes are supposed to have a purpose/martial applications

So preying and making a triangle with your fingers and having your hands back to back has a purpose does it? And I mean an actual purpose relating to combat not symbolism because I know all that explanation.q

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So preying and making a triangle with your fingers and having your hands back to back has a purpose does it? And I mean an actual purpose relating to combat not symbolism because I know all that explanation.q

Yup, combat purpose. For any salute, I was taught the martial application behind each movement. Just like any other movement in a form.

 

[Headhunter]

I think of the biggest problems with the forms from short 3 upwards is the teachers don't teach it as the techniques. I've seen a lot of teachers just show it as one big motion instead of breaking it down techique by techique and looking at that techique and looking at the foot manoeuvres and the hand positions that are actually needed when doing that techique on a body.

One of my favourite exercises when it came to those forms was your surrounded by 4 guys and you do each move of the form on one guy then transition into the next on another as that way you have to do it in a realistic way or it won't work on the person your doing it on.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yes but there's no need to be doing it at the beginning of every single form either

The salute pays respect to the organization and or the founder. It like you are saying which group you belong to. If you are going to do a form and put it online then it's really important to do the salute. Not doing the salute is considered disrespectful. Often times it's different when training but when in public it's done.

Some salutes are for show while others have functional pieces within the salute. Jow Ga uses functional kung fu pieces within our salute. There are only 3 movements that are formal non fighting techniques.
This is a Jow Ga salute / bow at 0:32 along with it's applications. The only part that is non fighting technique is where he puts his fist into this hand. That is the formal bow. Everything else can be used to fight with.

I'm don't know anything about Kenpo but I can only assume that there is an meaning behind the salute that is important to the school. Generally the students of a school have a duty to represent the school that they train under with high respect in public.

So preying and making a triangle with your fingers

This is a technique that is used to in Kung Fu to escape a bear hug, while it's only part of the complete technique, it's the most important part because without out it there is no escape. I'm not sure if it serves the same purpose in Kenpo or if the Kenpo ever used it as a technique, but in other systems that praying motion is part of a fighting technique. It looks like praying but it isn't.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think of the biggest problems with the forms from short 3 upwards is the teachers don't teach it as the techniques. I've seen a lot of teachers just show it as one big motion instead of breaking it down techique by techique and looking at that techique and looking at the foot manoeuvres and the hand positions that are actually needed when doing that techique on a body.

I agree with this. I think most teachers do not teach the technique partly because they may not know themselves. They are teachers but that doesn't mean that they know everything. There's a lot to martial arts and I realistically don't expect any one teacher to know everything. I also think that the more a person wants to be able to use the techniques for fighting, the more likely that person will know the meaning. If a person is only taking martial arts for exercise then the application of that technique will often be lost. We see this happen with Tai Chi. Teachers who take tai chi for fitness are probably clueless about a lot of the applications found in the form.

 

[Headhunter]

I agree with this. I think most teachers do not teach the technique partly because they may not know themselves. They are teachers but that doesn't mean that they know everything. There's a lot to martial arts and I realistically don't expect any one teacher to know everything. I also think that the more a person wants to be able to use the techniques for fighting, the more likely that person will know the meaning. If a person is only taking martial arts for exercise then the application of that technique will often be lost. We see this happen with Tai Chi. Teachers who take tai chi for fitness are probably clueless about a lot of the applications found in the form.

Well they should do because the techniques are separate techniques that are required for belt levels normally the same as the form is for

 

[Touch Of Death]

Then explain...you seem to be unable to do that part as I've already asked you to explain but you ignored that.

First of all, the salutation teaches you how to move. If you punch differently, why?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Well they should do because the techniques are separate techniques that are required for belt levels normally the same as the form is for

I guess every school is different

 

[hoshin1600]

I'm don't know anything about Kenpo but I can only assume that there is an meaning behind the salute that is important to the school.

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well this is where i am going to have to be a buzz kill to the kenpo fans,,you perspective @JowGaWolf is from a Chinese view point and tradition, Kenpo is purely an American innovation. Ed Parker never learnt any forms from Chow. all of kenpo's forms were created as an after thought to produce more material because Parker ran out of stuff to teach his students. most of the forms were created by James wing woo. other forms followed from many other teachers along the way.
the opening of this form is a copy of the movement from an old okinawan form called Kusanku.

Karate Kagami - Notes on the Kata Kanku-sho
"The precise meaning of Kanku-sho means 'viewing the sky' or 'viewing emptiness', minor version. Here are the kanji:

is for kan meaning view, look or appearance.

is for ku meaning sky, empty or void. You will probably recognise this as the kanji also for kara in karate - empty hand.

is for shou meaning little or small."

there is no application for this action. i guess one could invent something and obviously some one did in kenpo. but to me this action was borrowed from kusanku and added to the kenpo form to give it a feeling of authenticity where non exists.

orginally kenpo had no forms. then people started creating some and more and more and more. kenpo forms are lacking a lot of things that other Chinese and Okinawan forms have. this is why kenpo forms seem clunky and disjointed.