Headhunter
Senior Master
So saw this on YouTube I'd like to hear opinions from kenpo guys or just anyone who understands forms and the way they should be done.
Long form 3
- Thread starter Headhunter
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I don't understand some of the short strikes and redirects that are being done. Some of the things looked "fishy" to me. In other words, more flash than function. Like the "hand clap." Not sure if that's a conditioning thing going on or not. The one hand behind the back is another. I'm assuming that simulates someone pinning his arm behind him.
You'll probably get multiple responses from people who do forms.
For me in Jow Ga Kung Fu forms simulate combinations and techniques that would be used in fighting. This means I can literally pull a piece or combination directly from a form and actually use it in a real fight. The forms also factor incoming strikes.
From an outsider looking in. I don't see anything wrong with how he is approaching the form. But I don't do kempo and I didn't understand all of the techniques being used.
Was there a specific thing about the form that makes you ask for opinions.
You'll probably get multiple responses from people who do forms.
For me in Jow Ga Kung Fu forms simulate combinations and techniques that would be used in fighting. This means I can literally pull a piece or combination directly from a form and actually use it in a real fight. The forms also factor incoming strikes.
From an outsider looking in. I don't see anything wrong with how he is approaching the form. But I don't do kempo and I didn't understand all of the techniques being used.
Was there a specific thing about the form that makes you ask for opinions.
hoshin1600
Senior Master
i really like the way that form incorporates Irish step dance and hand jive movements together.
but seriously i think (my opinion on this really doesnt matter because i do not know the form) that to me i feel that he has some power in his actions but is trying to go to fast. this may be the tempo he was taught but the end result is that it seems many of the actions are cut to short with no extension and there seems to be many poor angles due to the focus on fast. i used to do a form called Hansuki that had a very fast pace and it was always very common to see abbreviated strikes.
was there something you see?
over all as a form i am not a fan of this type of kata.
but seriously i think (my opinion on this really doesnt matter because i do not know the form) that to me i feel that he has some power in his actions but is trying to go to fast. this may be the tempo he was taught but the end result is that it seems many of the actions are cut to short with no extension and there seems to be many poor angles due to the focus on fast. i used to do a form called Hansuki that had a very fast pace and it was always very common to see abbreviated strikes.
was there something you see?
over all as a form i am not a fan of this type of kata.
It wasn't terrible, but he is too isolated, in his motion, if you ask me. He trained to be this way, the question is why.
hoshin1600
Senior Master
what do you mean by isolated, doing one action at a time?
I was thinking the same thing as well but not being a Kenpo student. I couldn't tell if that was normal for kenpo. Usually with forms we expect things to be bigger than what they would be in a real fight. Normally there is a big focus on completing the technique which is something that I didn't see here. After watching the video. I went back to see if I could find another example of the same form. Many because I'm curious about what the "hand clapping and wavy hands" were about. I couldn't find other examples. But I did see similar forms that were more of what I'm used to seeing and doing in my own training.
When I train forms, I will blast through the form for cardio purposes. But when I train for speed. I do the form in bursts. It becomes clear which strikes are single striking techniques and which ones are combinations. In the OP's video he just blasts through it but I don't know if that's intentional or not. His form 3 seems to be a combination of the short form 3 and some other form. This was a big help in explaining "what's going on" The hand behind the back is still confusing. I'm not understanding the mechanics of it. I'm trying to picture myself locking his arm behind his back and I'm not seeing the strike. Maybe if the person tries to lock the arm and follow the arm as the person tries to spin out of it.
I would be interested in hearing what the kenpo people have to say about the form. I always like to know how close or how far off my analysis of other systems is. I kind of think of it as me analyzing my opponent and trying to figure out the dangers by analyzing his movement.
hoshin1600
Senior Master
for a comparison look at this clip. this is done slow but in it we can see the extension of the arms and pronounced correct stances.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I am an ex-kenpo guy, having earned shodan in the Tracy lineage. I learned the same form as part of the curriculum, but there are some differences because this fellow is from a different lineage, but also tracing back to Ed Parker.
To address a comment or two that were made, kenpo forms are largely constructed with a series of pre-choreographed self-defense scenarios. So each scenario is based on the idea that if a bad guy attacks you like THIS, then we defend by doing THAT. And yes, the arm behind the back is a defense against a hammerlock. A number of these scenarios are strung together to create the forms, in many cases, including this one.
I am not a fan of most of the kenpo forms. Part of my dislike is in how they tend to be done by most people, as far as I have seen. People tend to rush through them, speeding to the end as if they are in a race, too focused on what is coming next and not enough attention to what they are doing at the moment, and I think that speaks to the quality of instruction that is going on in a lot of cases. Stance changes are done divorced from actual power generation in their techniques. People simply turn and hit a stance, but don’t accomplish anything in the process. Stance changes need to accomplish something, they need to be used to rotate the torso and drive technique, and not just as a posture. but in my opinion most people that I have seen simply hit the posture.
As far as the forms themselves, it is my opinion that they are largely poorly designed. Many of the self-defense scenarios are ill-conceived, not terribly functional, unrealistic, and can be downright bad ideas.
The transitions from one scenario to the next that are found in the forms often feel forced and unnatural, and can put you into awkward positions from which efficient and effective movement becomes difficult or impossible. In some cases they feel like examples of what not to do.
That is my opinion of the kenpo forms as a whole, and most examples of them, including this one.
To address a comment or two that were made, kenpo forms are largely constructed with a series of pre-choreographed self-defense scenarios. So each scenario is based on the idea that if a bad guy attacks you like THIS, then we defend by doing THAT. And yes, the arm behind the back is a defense against a hammerlock. A number of these scenarios are strung together to create the forms, in many cases, including this one.
I am not a fan of most of the kenpo forms. Part of my dislike is in how they tend to be done by most people, as far as I have seen. People tend to rush through them, speeding to the end as if they are in a race, too focused on what is coming next and not enough attention to what they are doing at the moment, and I think that speaks to the quality of instruction that is going on in a lot of cases. Stance changes are done divorced from actual power generation in their techniques. People simply turn and hit a stance, but don’t accomplish anything in the process. Stance changes need to accomplish something, they need to be used to rotate the torso and drive technique, and not just as a posture. but in my opinion most people that I have seen simply hit the posture.
As far as the forms themselves, it is my opinion that they are largely poorly designed. Many of the self-defense scenarios are ill-conceived, not terribly functional, unrealistic, and can be downright bad ideas.
The transitions from one scenario to the next that are found in the forms often feel forced and unnatural, and can put you into awkward positions from which efficient and effective movement becomes difficult or impossible. In some cases they feel like examples of what not to do.
That is my opinion of the kenpo forms as a whole, and most examples of them, including this one.
Headhunter
Senior Master
Okay so my opinion is it's not good he's rushing through the motions not putting any emphasis on the forward bows or any stances. Yeah it's good hand speed but he's missing a number of the fundamentals of the form and this guys a 5th dan. Tbh I've seen brown belts do it better
I would call that, no body, but yeah.
I mean he isn't using center line, and step through, properly.
Headhunter
Senior Master
I know some kenpo guys use bigger than normal movements but I stick with normal height as what's the point in training one thing in techique and another in form.
Also the move with the arm behind the back is from a techique called locked wing. It's a hammer lock. The attacked basically grabs the arm and tries to pull it up your back and then you step into him with the elbow.
I saw this as well to when comparing it to other similar Kenpo form 3 videos out there. Some had a clear purpose in their stance and others had a stance that was more like a dance. It's not just a Kenpo thing as I've seen it in other styles to.
For me, once a saw a person truly drive power from the stance it just stuck with me as something I should do in my own forms. There is a noticeable difference between those who can do it and those who just go through the motion of the stance. Those who drive power from the stance tend to look as if they are heavy. They move quickly but not lightly. When they stomp you can feel it in the floor. My Sifu once stomped the pavement while under a pavilion in the park. The stomp wasn't a high pitch slapping sound of a food hitting the ground. I had a heavy bass sound and I could feel the vibration in the ground from the stomp.
When people drive that stance their punches have a solid look look. It's fast but it also looks heavy and solid. It doesn't have that light look that people do with jabs that tap. Their strikes clearly look like something you want to avoid vs trying to stop it with force or allow it to land.
I was thinking this, but wasn't sure because it looked off. I guess the way that he put it behind his back vs turning in a way as if someone was actually trying to lock the arm. We have have a similar technique that is done in our empty 2 man set but the arm isn't just place behind the back it's twisted behind the back. The guy in the OP's videos just puts his hand behind his back as if he is trying to hide something and it just made the mechanics of it all look off.
Thanks for clearing that up thought about what was going on.
Headhunter
Senior Master
I hate forms in competitions because in my eyes it ruins it. It makes people dance around like idiots basically destroying everything the form teaches just for a silly trophy and then people see that and think that's what form is meant to be. To me it's no different to shadow boxing that's how I've always explained them.
Headhunter
Senior Master
Also this is what the technique actually is its a nice technique. Realistically it would end at the first elbow but the rest is just a what if. Like if they block or it missed etc.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
He isn’t racing through it and he makes his movement clean and distinct, so that is a big improvement. There is still a big disconnect between his stances and his upper body. He turns and hits the stance but doesn’t do any work with the stance change. It’s better than the guy who is racing through it, but still has a lot to be desired.
I also dislike how the opening salutation takes almost as long as the form itself. Some of the lineages really overdid that and created a bunch of symbolism that, in my opinion, is meaningless.
hoshin1600
Senior Master
@Flying Crane
i think we agree on a lot about kenpo in general.
i think we agree on a lot about kenpo in general.
Actually there is a specific meaning to the salute, and it isn't all that crazy.
It is also realistic to assume, it ain't over til it's over.
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