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Nabakatsu

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So, while my wing tzun is no where nearrrr where I want it to be before I venture into cage fighting, I was curious as to what long distance attacks I could use to close the distance or to supplement my wing tzun, it would be awesome to remain a purist and i'm sure most fighters will be quite agressive to the point where I could just take a few steps and go into IRAS and not have to worry about whether they will come at me or not, but I figure gathering some ideas to play with can't hurt, will keep me entertained, and possibly give me another excuse to train harder :)
 

Beginner's Mind

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I've never done cage fighting, so I can't tell you with 100% certainty. I know when I spar against other styles, it comes naturally to me to use kicks from my previous karate training if an opponent break contact. I think it's not a bad idea to cover various ranges (and man, will this thread have comments on ground game!) because cage isn't the street, smart fighters will retreat to ranges which give them advantage over you.
 

Hagakure

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I'd question my mindset about doing cage-fighting. It's a very specific set of circumstances/rules etc that need to become more familiar to you.

Most MMA guys for example, certainly at a higher level (I'm talking entirely hypothetically here, I freely admit) I'd have thought are pretty used to sparring, grappling, semi-to full contact etc. Us Chunners although will do full force, bare knuckle attacks, normally, if you catch your training opponent, you'll both stop, ask if you're ok etc. You're in a cage environment, that's unlikely to happen, from co-operative partners to those who are actively trying to punch/kick you in the face takes getting used to. Perhaps getting used to getting hit would be a good thing to aclimatise to?

Also, fitness. Needs to be waaay up.

Ground game. Train it.

Also, all this "If you don't use pure Wing Chun then you're not good enough or failing the art" is just BS in my view. As I see it, Wing Chun is more about concepts and ideas of simplicity rather than a list of set moves. Sure it has it's central tennets, all the arts do, regardless of country of origin/MMA/TMA, but that doesn't mean you don't have to be enslaved by them. "If" you add bits and bobs such as grappling to your game, you may be lambasted from certain traditional quarters. If you do, discount them. Those who only want to knock you for doing this, without offering anything constructive, shouldn't be listened to.

Finally, you're a braver man than me for willingly putting yourself into this position, good on yer for doing it. Without taking anything away from this forum, there is a specific Wing Chun fight club forum that specifically deals with trying to raise the profile and effectiveness of WC in the cage environment, and there are a few guys now realising the advantages of it. I won't post it here in case it violates forum rules, but maybe I could PM it to you if that doesn't?

:)

H
 
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Nabakatsu

Nabakatsu

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Such a forum sounds amazing, should it be within the rules, I would definitely enjoy pouring over some of those ideas, this is more of a far off goal than something I will be doing asap, like.. 2-3 years, I've only been doing wing tzun for like 4-5 months, I've been trying to find someone to practice with outside of classes.. with no luck at all.. I have no friends in real life, or I would have bugged them to the point of them not wanting to be friends any more anyways, -chuckles- I've been training pretty hard for past 5 days, and intend to step it up shortly once my body gets a little more used to it.
I practice ebmas, which does have a pretty solid ground game from the looks of it anyways, I really can't say for sure as I am a complete novice in such things, I would certainly study a bit a BJJ, just to know how they think, basic defenses against their more threatening attacks, ect ect, my brother was a wrestlling champion in ohio state for a few years, and wants to train for mma style fighting, hopefully he will move out here so I can practice take down defense/ground defense.. that would be awesome!
I like the way muay thai round houses look to be honest, and i'm kind of curious about other short range styles, more out of curiosity than anything, I've been looking at bak mei and southern mantis as an acedemic study for sorts :p
Thanks for your replys!
 

Hagakure

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Such a forum sounds amazing, should it be within the rules, I would definitely enjoy pouring over some of those ideas, this is more of a far off goal than something I will be doing asap, like.. 2-3 years, I've only been doing wing tzun for like 4-5 months, I've been trying to find someone to practice with outside of classes.. with no luck at all.. I have no friends in real life, or I would have bugged them to the point of them not wanting to be friends any more anyways, -chuckles- I've been training pretty hard for past 5 days, and intend to step it up shortly once my body gets a little more used to it.
I practice ebmas, which does have a pretty solid ground game from the looks of it anyways, I really can't say for sure as I am a complete novice in such things, I would certainly study a bit a BJJ, just to know how they think, basic defenses against their more threatening attacks, ect ect, my brother was a wrestlling champion in ohio state for a few years, and wants to train for mma style fighting, hopefully he will move out here so I can practice take down defense/ground defense.. that would be awesome!
I like the way muay thai round houses look to be honest, and i'm kind of curious about other short range styles, more out of curiosity than anything, I've been looking at bak mei and southern mantis as an acedemic study for sorts :p
Thanks for your replys!


Yeah the tips on this forum are pretty good. Solid actual advice that you can put into practice. The first point it mentions is "get hit" as often as you can. It advises standing in the corner somewhere with a training partner, both gloved up to start with, and to have them attack you at around 30-40% power (again, to start with). You, can only defend. That way, they'll put all their efforts into trying to hit you, head, face, ribs, wherever. You'll be learning to duck and weave, block etc, and, when you miss, get hit. To carry on when you've been smashed in the mouth or nose and fight through the watery-eyed, stunned sensation will be vital. Those guys will be used to it, so will you need to be. :) This is just the start for the advice.
 
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Nabakatsu

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-contemplates building the bronze men from that shaolin jackie chan movie-
Seriously tho, that sounds like good advice, I hope I find someone who wants to train this kind of stuff some time in the near future, seeing as how I rarely venture outside of my house apart from walking in nature and going to wing tzun classes not sure if that'll be the case, maybe i'll practice punching myself for the time being hehe :p
 

mook jong man

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So, while my wing tzun is no where nearrrr where I want it to be before I venture into cage fighting, I was curious as to what long distance attacks I could use to close the distance or to supplement my wing tzun, it would be awesome to remain a purist and i'm sure most fighters will be quite agressive to the point where I could just take a few steps and go into IRAS and not have to worry about whether they will come at me or not, but I figure gathering some ideas to play with can't hurt, will keep me entertained, and possibly give me another excuse to train harder :)

There is a move in our lineage called the charging knee it covers a hell of a lot of ground .

Its used to protect your groin as you bridge the gap when you think the opponent might be preparing to kick you , like they might have transfered their weight to the back leg and their ready to throw out a front kick .

You do it by taking a very fast step with one leg and almost simultaneously raise the other leg with knee on centerline to protect your groin and midsection .

You can use the knee to strike the opponents bladder area or just use it to protect until you are in punching range , once your in range plant your foot down and strike at the exact instant your foot hits the ground to maximise your punching power.

When you practice this one do it in front of a mirror and make sure your action is very sharp and sudden and watch you don't telegraph by leaning just before you pounce in.

As for kicks the longest one I know in Wing Chun is what we called the Wing Chun sidekick or some call it bong gerk , its done by swinging the hip right through till your knee and ankle line up on the centerline and your foot is facing in a diagonal position , let your support leg pivot naturally , and kick through the heel .

Target it at the knee to break the leg or for maximum distance kick to the groin or bladder .

I was always told to kick the bladder and not the stomach because a person can strengthen their abs but they can't build much muscle over the bladder region .

You could probably even do this kick with a short step to get more distance , normally I wouldn't advocate a step before kicking because of the chance of being countered, but I've come to realise it depends how good you are .

How fast your footwork is and how non telegraphic you are as to whether you can make it work or not. Like the bloke I learned the knife fighting under he can stab you with a training knife in one lunge from about 2 and a half metres away and theres not a friggin thing you can do to stop him , it all comes down to how good you are.
 

Eru Il繙vatar

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Mook, this charging knee of yours reminds me a lot of the thing William and David Cheung people do. I had a discussion about it with a new training buddy of mine just last Thuersday. He has trained both David and William C. styles of WC and has completed the system in one of the two. Don't realy know which one.

They acctualy have it in the beginning of the dummy form(
). I personaly like the concept behind it. We came to the subject of this charging knee when we discused the problem of bridging the gap, using WC, against a guy whos game/strategy is to keep distance(virtualy most popular styles).

I've personaly done variations of the move myself when experimenting/sparring in the past, but have never thought of it as a specifc technique from WC. In anycase it's a usefull move indeed.
 
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Si-Je

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There is also a charging heel kick we do. Work it with another person holding the big kicking pad to their chest.
Have them charge towards you as you step in to do the charging heel kick so you get used to meeting the force of the body weight of the attacker.
If then end up too close to you to kick your already in position for a knee.
Ask you Sifu about WT defense against the shoot, mount, and opponent between your legs. They may deem that your not quite ready for it yet, but you can learn the very basics that will help you to defend against most entries for grappling, shoots, and such.
Don't worry about the "rules" of the cage so much, and focus on you Grade one techniques. In the cage you'll only use about grade 1-3 at the most. So that's all your going to need technique wise anyway and all you'll be really allowed to use in the cage rules.

1. Make sure you get your cardio way up. Ride a bike every other day.

2. And work with building up your punching and kicking power on a heavy bag every day (about 80lbs. or more is best to start with) When you can hit that bag for one minute in sets, start to build up the time.

3. Then do drills on the bag with single punch with tan sau, pak sau, (all of your deflections) so you focus on generating power in that first punch when you deflect.
When you build that first punch's power up on the bag, do the same drill but add the chainpunching follow through.

4. stand at the heavy bag and do repetitive heel kicks without putting your foot back down between kicks. Keep that leg up there and kick as fast as you can with the leg staying up. Do this with a partner holding the kicking pad to their chest too. Don't worry about really knocking them back your focusing on isometrics.
Do this 25 to 50 kicks per leg and then build up to 100 per leg. This will give you big power in your heel kick, and heel kick to the midsection is great for closing the gap.

4. Hook kick would be good to train for "hooking" their standing leg to bring them closer to you. MMA guys like to punch as they run backwards. Practice hook kick more as a hook than such a "kick" to keep your opponent close.
Another thing to practice with a partner too is to make sure you step on that foot everytime you step toward your partner/opponent when you step forward into advanced stance (one leg forward, C-step, etc.) this will keep them from being able to shoot backwards and run from you when you advance. You don't want to chase them all over the ring. That's what they want. They bait you to go forward and then shoot into your knees for the takedown.

5. Do lat/lop sau drills with your partner spontaneously shooting into your legs/hips to get you use to responding to the shoot when it comes as your chainpunching and advancing on the opponent. When they shoot use your stance and a rising tan sau under the chin as you step right into them. Ask your Sifu, he should be hip to these moves since your training Wing Tzun. Let him know you would like to focus on defenses against the shoot, bridging the gap and work that foot step.
When you do advanced C-step stance and plant your front foot on thier front foot this will make it very hard for them to shoot low into you and shoot backwards to retreat when you come into them chainpunching. Use that hook kick too.

Heel kicking their knee (inside of the theigh) is legal too. They won't know what to think of that kick, use it to bring them down when you get to the side of them too (make sure that's legal to kick the back of the knee, I think it is, not sure) And when you kick that leg make sure you follow through with the kick where your standing on their theigh/calf whatever part of that leg. Plant it on there. Keep them from squirrling around while you focus on getting the side of their head and chainpunching.

Oh, they'll also try to expose the back of the head to you so you cannot punch them when your on the ground or when their down. Be aware of this little chicken stratagy. They know you can't punch 'em in the back of the head and neck and when they shoot in and are on the ground they expose that area on purpose to "cover". Your going to need WC hook punch and upper cut, elbows too before you compete.
Again, talk to your Sifu and find out a time frame for training for you to learn WC hook punch, upper cut, and elbows before you compete.
I'd advise you to know Dai sau for defense on the boxers hook punches because it's fairly easy to learn (more so than bong sau) but, I don't think that WTzun does that move. It would be invaluable to you, tan sau will not deflect most boxer hook punches when they bend that elbow and try for a punch/elbow tight hook, and bong sau is easy to get collapsed until you've got it down perfect which just takes time.

I'd hate for you to go in the cage too early into training and get discouraged if you get overwhelmed. Make sure you've got the areas fully covered, your cardio extremely high, muscle endurance tip top, and your grappling defense\shoot defense down really well.
Work on chainpunching while on your back on the floor, latching, and deflecting too. Bicycle kicking and lots of core training. Lots of core training!
Hope this helps. ;)
 
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Nabakatsu

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Thanks, that truly is some amazing advice and a wealth of information, I don't have anyone to do training drills with yet, not sure if this will change anytime soon, nobody in my class really wants to train outside of class, and I don't have any friends outside of the internet, so.. it's a bit difficult at the moment for me to do such things, my cardio is doing really well tho, I run 45 mns and bike 45 mns daily, with ease I might add, I really need to focus more on my shoddy footwork I think, doing a perfect step just messing around away from combat is something I can't do yet.. so.. yeah hehe, thanks so much guys!
 

mook jong man

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Eru Il繳vatar;1134665 said:
Mook, this charging knee of yours reminds me a lot of the thing William and David Cheung people do.
Yeah , Billy the kid and his mob probably copied the move from us , as far as I know it is a part of Wing Chun. I mean it just makes perfect sense to me that a front on facing style like ours would have to have some sort of technique to protect the groin and midsection as you are moving in against somebody who is just waiting there on the back foot to kick you. And if its not a part of most peoples WC/WT then I reckon it bloody well should be in my humble opinion of course.
 
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Nabakatsu

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I liked watching the knee, that is a good technique to have developed for sure, I want to work on a really long lunging circle step eventually, could be a waste of time but my sifu told me he saw emin boztepe cover a massive ammount of space in almost an instant using something similar.
 

mook jong man

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Like I said before I've seen my late Sifu demonstrate a charging knee , and It was like he went from 0 to 100mph in a split second , It was like one second he was there and the next second he was in another place .

I only saw him do it once but it was something that I could sit there and watch all day .

There was no leaning in just before he was about to move or any sort of telegraph , it was just bang and he was there right in front of an instructors face from a starting distance quite a bit further than kicking range.

Thats the point really if you are in kicking range you use a kick , if you are just out side of kicking range use a charging knee to bridge the gap safely.
 
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Nabakatsu

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Awesome, more first hand accounts the better I feel about eventually being able to do this, I can move pretty fast normally, wing tzun stepping still feels a bit unnatural, practice practice practice!
 

mook jong man

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Awesome, more first hand accounts the better I feel about eventually being able to do this, I can move pretty fast normally, wing tzun stepping still feels a bit unnatural, practice practice practice!

Yeah but he'd been training for 40 years .
 
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Nabakatsu

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Well i'm only 22 years old, I'm sure if I dedicate 15-30 mns a day to it I could close the gap incredibly fast, my online friend is into fighting a fair amount, more into the grappling stuff, showed me all these aikido and other holds eerrrr.. you know what, i'll make a new thread about this, trying to keep this place alive, hopefully my newb questions aren't boring the snot out of some of our other members ;)
 

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Well i'm only 22 years old, I'm sure if I dedicate 15-30 mns a day to it I could close the gap incredibly fast, my online friend is into fighting a fair amount, more into the grappling stuff, showed me all these aikido and other holds eerrrr.. you know what, i'll make a new thread about this, trying to keep this place alive, hopefully my newb questions aren't boring the snot out of some of our other members ;)

Purely out of curiosity, can I ask why you're wanting to fight?
 
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Nabakatsu

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Ever since I was a kid I've fantasized about living on a shaolin temple and learning kung fu and just fighting all day, I've always loved to play fight with people, I've never actually swung at someone or been in a real fight tho, so, maybe I don't really want to fight.. but I think I do.. I'm not going to find out until I feel confident with my wing tzun abilities and perhaps a bit of knowledge of ground game be it wt or not, I don't want to hurt anybody.. which is kind of a concern of mine, but I know from my perspective if I get hurt it's my own responsbility and so I beleive anyone else who would willingly fight me would share that perspective I hope. It just looks like fun! I love physical contact, idk.. I would literally fight and train all day with people if I could.. it's almost like a drug.. I want to be really good.. and I want to fight people who are really good, I think about it almost all day.. I know eventually I want to be a martial arts instructor, and I feel like having experience fighting and having tested these things for myself I will be a bit more authentic in some respects, the only thing i'm really worried about is seriously hurting somebody else, because i'm quite sensitive to the things I do and how people react to them, knocking somebody out is one thing, but a serious injury.. would fill with guilt for quite some time i'm sure. None the less.. I feel with all of my heart that I want to give it my best effort before I write it off.. it just.. feels right :)
 

Hagakure

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Ever since I was a kid I've fantasized about living on a shaolin temple and learning kung fu and just fighting all day, I've always loved to play fight with people, I've never actually swung at someone or been in a real fight tho, so, maybe I don't really want to fight.. but I think I do.. I'm not going to find out until I feel confident with my wing tzun abilities and perhaps a bit of knowledge of ground game be it wt or not, I don't want to hurt anybody.. which is kind of a concern of mine, but I know from my perspective if I get hurt it's my own responsbility and so I beleive anyone else who would willingly fight me would share that perspective I hope. It just looks like fun! I love physical contact, idk.. I would literally fight and train all day with people if I could.. it's almost like a drug.. I want to be really good.. and I want to fight people who are really good, I think about it almost all day.. I know eventually I want to be a martial arts instructor, and I feel like having experience fighting and having tested these things for myself I will be a bit more authentic in some respects, the only thing i'm really worried about is seriously hurting somebody else, because i'm quite sensitive to the things I do and how people react to them, knocking somebody out is one thing, but a serious injury.. would fill with guilt for quite some time i'm sure. None the less.. I feel with all of my heart that I want to give it my best effort before I write it off.. it just.. feels right :)


Well, good luck to you mate. Me? I'm waaaay too pretty to fight in the ring, squashed nose? Cauliflower ears? Pfft! You can keep that mate. ;)
 

Si-Je

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Sounds like you want to compete and fight for most of the right reasons. :)
I read you talking about a long lunging circle step earlier. You'll get into that pretty soon I believe. We call it "humbo" step (hubbie likes the Kempo term I guess because they have a similar stance in Kempo) or C-stepping. Boztepe uses that alot and can really shoot forward and close the distance on a fighter. Scary. lol!
But, that will take alot of time before you can do that.

When you start stepping in to "pressure" the opponent, take your time. I usually just take smaller steps in basic stance (Sil Lim Tao stance, whatever ya'll were calling it eariler) until they run out of room and have to make a move. This leaves you uncommitted and gives nothing to your opponent to work off of, no energy, no inertia, no telegraphing. As soon as they move, whether a feignt, punch, kick, or shoot then you "shoot" in with your C-step, or advanced stance. I'm lazy, so I usually tend to step forward with a heel kick as I step into their stance. This will cover you if they happen to kick, and works almost every time.
Don't worry so much about covering alot of distance to chase your opponent. This mentality could set you up to play their game and bait you into whatever combo, takedown, etc. they are planning.
Just, walk. Relax. And wait to respond to their movement. Let them jump around all over the place, that will just save up your cardio and waste theirs.

Anyways, I think it's cool that your wanting to cage fight. We need more like you. Don't let people convince you too much on all this cross training and grappling/wrestling stuff yet. Just stick with Sifu and train the dickens out of what your learning now. Your doing great so far. Very dedicated and very energetic by what you say about your training. You train way harder than I do! lol!
I don't know if you chainpunching the bag for 10min. without stop or what, but if your doing that already then,.. Damn! lol! Very good! Just quite using those shoulder muscles. If you want big shoulder muscles work weights or restiance bands. Use your lats when chain punching, that's where you should be sore. ;)

Anyway, deviated. :) Save your "long distance" techniques for bridging the gap for when you have something to work with from the opponent. Don't anticipate and instigate the encounter. Wait until they commit to a course of action, then bridge what little gap there is left. ;)
A good creedo for WC/WT: "maximum amount of effeciency, minimal amount of effort."
ex. When they kick, you C-step into their kick/stance.
ex. When they kick, you simply heel kick their kicking leg, like a door jam.
ex. When they hook punch you bridge the gap and chainpunch straight in (sometimes you don't even have to deflect, you just punch them first. Kinda messes up their hook punch )
ex. When they shoot in take the head and knee, stepping in with elbows all the way. (Until you learn the other stuff. I'm just getting into the advanced, "I won't name it because I don't feel like dealing with crap", now and I've been training 4 years) If they pick you up off the ground keep hold of that head and sit down on your butt. Use basic stance, lat sau, and chain kicking until you get up.
ex. When they straight punch or boxer's jab or feight, you shoot in chainpunching, lat sau, lop sau right there.

Always try to train the moves your learning with your hands and stepping while adding a kick. Alot of schools don't do this early or at all. But, if you chainpunch and step make sure to heel or hook kick as you do it at least once.
If you tan sau and punch, you heel or hook kick as your tan sauing.
The more you use your kicking with your hands the more devastating you will be. You'll get two attacks for the price of one.
And don't worry, the more you practice this the more power you'll develop while deflecting, punching, and kicking at the same time. It's awkward as hell at first, and you get off-balance, but like anything in MA you'll get better and more stable when you do it.
Doing this will be one of the major factors for defeating a stronger, faster, or more "experienced" opponent in the ring or elsewhere.
Keep training like you are, your an inspiration. Great job!
 
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