Kick Penetration

mook jong man

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A long time ago I was taught to tense the wrist and ankle at the split second of impact when kicking or punching . I worked on this a lot with the punching , but not really much with the kicking .

I was pretty much satisfied with just pulling the toes back and making sure I used the heel . But now I have been actively concentrating on tensing the ankle when I kick lately and it could very well be my imagination but the power seems to have increased slightly .

I believe the ankle behaves in the same way as the WC punch on impact , relaxed up until the split second of impact and then the sudden tensing of the wrist tilts the fist up slightly and gives the strike that extra bit of penetration and speed .

With the kick the leg and ankle is relaxed as with the arm until the split second of impact and then the ankle is tensed by firming the ankle joint and pulling the toes back .

I think this slight extension of the heel on impact acts just like the punch by giving the kick that last little bit of acceleration and penetration , do other WC/WT people go along with this theory or do you have other thoughts.
 

Hagakure

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A long time ago I was taught to tense the wrist and ankle at the split second of impact when kicking or punching . I worked on this a lot with the punching , but not really much with the kicking .

I was pretty much satisfied with just pulling the toes back and making sure I used the heel . But now I have been actively concentrating on tensing the ankle when I kick lately and it could very well be my imagination but the power seems to have increased slightly .

I believe the ankle behaves in the same way as the WC punch on impact , relaxed up until the split second of impact and then the sudden tensing of the wrist tilts the fist up slightly and gives the strike that extra bit of penetration and speed .

With the kick the leg and ankle is relaxed as with the arm until the split second of impact and then the ankle is tensed by firming the ankle joint and pulling the toes back .

I think this slight extension of the heel on impact acts just like the punch by giving the kick that last little bit of acceleration and penetration , do other WC/WT people go along with this theory or do you have other thoughts.

Pretty much the same as me mate. My kicks are low, to hip level at the highest. Two reasons, (1) I'm not convinced it's practical to kick much higher in a live situ, and (2) I'm crap at kicking higher, so I don't. So, kicks to the hip, inside opponents leg ala Muay Thai, or kicks to the knee/shins, using a similar method to what you've stated MJM.

In fact, the one thing I wish my class would do more of is kicking and kicking techniques. I think it's a very valid opener, or a technique to weaken the base of an opponent, and used with a punch combo can be used to great effect.

How much do other schools train kicks? We're maybe 25% of the time, if that?
 
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mook jong man

mook jong man

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Pretty much the same as me mate. My kicks are low, to hip level at the highest. Two reasons, (1) I'm not convinced it's practical to kick much higher in a live situ, and (2) I'm crap at kicking higher, so I don't. So, kicks to the hip, inside opponents leg ala Muay Thai, or kicks to the knee/shins, using a similar method to what you've stated MJM.

In fact, the one thing I wish my class would do more of is kicking and kicking techniques. I think it's a very valid opener, or a technique to weaken the base of an opponent, and used with a punch combo can be used to great effect.

How much do other schools train kicks? We're maybe 25% of the time, if that?

Yes , but would you agree that the penetration of the heel kick comes from that little bit of extention of the heel on impact.

Which I liken to the up tilt of the fist on impact that gives a slight extension of the bottom knuckles into the target .

I think the movements are similar don't you think.
 

Hagakure

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Yes , but would you agree that the penetration of the heel kick comes from that little bit of extention of the heel on impact.

Which I liken to the up tilt of the fist on impact that gives a slight extension of the bottom knuckles into the target .

I think the movements are similar don't you think.

Absolutely. I think it's a good analogy. :)
 

geezer

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I think this slight extension of the heel on impact acts just like the punch by giving the kick that last little bit of acceleration and penetration , do other WC/WT people go along with this theory or do you have other thoughts.

Makes perfect sense to me. In fact, with diligent practice, you should be able to develop a one-inch kick, just like the punch. It should make a great demo. Now, the only problem will be finding someone who will bend over and clutch a phonebook to their backside...
 
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mook jong man

mook jong man

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Makes perfect sense to me. In fact, with diligent practice, you should be able to develop a one-inch kick, just like the punch. It should make a great demo. Now, the only problem will be finding someone who will bend over and clutch a phonebook to their backside...

I can think of some old bosses of mine that I would have liked to have tried that on , except minus the phone book and a couple of metres run up.
 

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Makes perfect sense to me. In fact, with diligent practice, you should be able to develop a one-inch kick, just like the punch. It should make a great demo. Now, the only problem will be finding someone who will bend over and clutch a phonebook to their backside...

:rofl:

It makes me wonder how much kicking techniques have been lost in WC. I would like to believe that there use to be a lot of leg work used but now it seems like WC is pretty much hands and a occaional push kick.

Snapping that wrist isn't something easily done. It takes a lot of practice. I am seeing that now. It has me looking at all those youtube links where you see guys doing chain punches at 50mph.....as that guy said in that youtube video about locking the wrist upon impact.. "all that machine gun rubbish." lol He is right, if you are doing it correctly you can't have these super fast punches.
 

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If you train wing chun with a knowledgable teacher, none of the kicks are lost.

You won't see many wing chun kicks outside of a real fight, simply because it's very damaging. People with genuine experience know kicking is very dangerous, that's why some kicks are left out even in heavy gwoh-sau.
 

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It is these subtleties, that make the differences between a hit and a well executed strike or technique. The palm heel strike is also an example of the wrist action adding power at the end.
 

geezer

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If you train wing chun with a knowledgable teacher, none of the kicks are lost.

You won't see many wing chun kicks outside of a real fight, simply because it's very damaging. People with genuine experience know kicking is very dangerous, that's why some kicks are left out even in heavy gwoh-sau.

This is very true. My old Sifu was incredibly adept with his legs, both in offense and defense. His kicks were very relaxed, but both subtle and powerful... moving in a manner much like we train to move our arms. Unfortunately, I have screwed up legs and ankles (old injuries) and can't even dream of developing that level of skill. On the other hand, I feel I can spend the rest of my life happily exploring what WC/WT offers in hand to hand fighting, and never run out of things to learn.
 

geezer

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....as that guy said in that youtube video about locking the wrist upon impact.. "all that machine gun rubbish." lol He is right, if you are doing it correctly you can't have these super fast punches.

But doesn't it look impressive when the techniques are all shot out so fast that you can only see a blur? LOL. But seriously, think about it. If you really nail a guy hard once... that's good. Two or three times, really hard, in a couple of seconds... and he'll be reeling back so fast that you won't be able to keep throwing that blur of technique even if you're sticking to him like glue! Hell, even with a machine gun, you shoot short bursts, reset and shoot again. It's not a wild, continuous spray of bullets! Same with WC/WT. I hate it when I see clips of guys flailing away in the air, spraying out chain-punches when they're out of range and have no chance of landing them. I agree that it's far more important that each individual punch be fast, sharp, and focused than to be able to launch 7, 8 or even "10 per second".
 

AceHBK

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If you train wing chun with a knowledgable teacher, none of the kicks are lost.

You won't see many wing chun kicks outside of a real fight, simply because it's very damaging. People with genuine experience know kicking is very dangerous, that's why some kicks are left out even in heavy gwoh-sau.

I think as things get passed down over the years to different students and goes to different countries, somethings are lost/changed and added.

It would be very interesting to see how WC was then it was passed down from Leung Jan to Leung Bik and onto others.

The concept is no different than it is from stories passed down orally from generation to generation. The story cannot have stayed the same, Each person ads to it and takes something from it as it is passed down.

Heck just look at all of the different versions there are now.
 

AceHBK

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But doesn't it look impressive when the techniques are all shot out so fast that you can only see a blur? LOL. But seriously, think about it. If you really nail a guy hard once... that's good. Two or three times, really hard, in a couple of seconds... and he'll be reeling back so fast that you won't be able to keep throwing that blur of technique even if you're sticking to him like glue! Hell, even with a machine gun, you shoot short bursts, reset and shoot again. It's not a wild, continuous spray of bullets! Same with WC/WT. I hate it when I see clips of guys flailing away in the air, spraying out chain-punches when they're out of range and have no chance of landing them. I agree that it's far more important that each individual punch be fast, sharp, and focused than to be able to launch 7, 8 or even "10 per second".

And this is why you are Grandmaster Almightyness Geezer of WC. :)
 

chisauking

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It's very true that information get lost \ distorted over transmission -- especially when that information get relayed by many different people. If one analyse the family tree of the wing chun style, one will find it isn't coincidence that the further from the original source, the more distorted the original teachings. Practitioners that are 3 or 4th generation down from Yip Man tend to have a very much different view and approach to the people that are 1st or 2nd generation students. I won't say whether it's better or worst, because it will become very heated.

However, I will also add that since all the kicks of wing chun are very simple and is contained in the muk-yan-chong form, unless one forgets the form, it's next to impossible to 'lose' the kicks of the system.

It's true that not many people use the kicks of wing chun, but that's due to other reasons besides it being lost.
 

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A long time ago I was taught to tense the wrist and ankle at the split second of impact when kicking or punching . I worked on this a lot with the punching , but not really much with the kicking .

I was pretty much satisfied with just pulling the toes back and making sure I used the heel . But now I have been actively concentrating on tensing the ankle when I kick lately and it could very well be my imagination but the power seems to have increased slightly .

I believe the ankle behaves in the same way as the WC punch on impact , relaxed up until the split second of impact and then the sudden tensing of the wrist tilts the fist up slightly and gives the strike that extra bit of penetration and speed .

With the kick the leg and ankle is relaxed as with the arm until the split second of impact and then the ankle is tensed by firming the ankle joint and pulling the toes back .

I think this slight extension of the heel on impact acts just like the punch by giving the kick that last little bit of acceleration and penetration , do other WC/WT people go along with this theory or do you have other thoughts.


Right, I read this post when you posted it and thought I'd give it a try. I practiced on my 'new' dummy I built and I think I see that you're getting at. I didn't think there'd be much in it to be honest, and thought the heal would just add a small amount of extra damage. Boy, was I wrong. Have you actually tried this? I occasionally still practice some of the Wing Chun basics, because I believe in their effect. I don't usually use much leg work because I refer Muay Thai style kicks for street defence along with push kicks to the navel and low centreline.
I LOVE this kick! It really drives through with the extra tension. The heel feels more 'concentrated' overall and when you have the right point of the heel making the contact, it is an awesome kick.

Thanks for the idea, MJM. I am certainly going to incorporate it and get my students to try it out. See what happens against another moving body:ultracool

Kind regards

John
 
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mook jong man

mook jong man

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Right, I read this post when you posted it and thought I'd give it a try. I practiced on my 'new' dummy I built and I think I see that you're getting at. I didn't think there'd be much in it to be honest, and thought the heal would just add a small amount of extra damage. Boy, was I wrong. Have you actually tried this? I occasionally still practice some of the Wing Chun basics, because I believe in their effect. I don't usually use much leg work because I refer Muay Thai style kicks for street defence along with push kicks to the navel and low centreline.
I LOVE this kick! It really drives through with the extra tension. The heel feels more 'concentrated' overall and when you have the right point of the heel making the contact, it is an awesome kick.

Thanks for the idea, MJM. I am certainly going to incorporate it and get my students to try it out. See what happens against another moving body:ultracool

Kind regards

John

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It is something that I have always known about but not something I have really worked on a lot.
A while back I had an old metal heavy bag stand , as a stand for a heavy bag it was ***** .

So I converted it into kicking dummy with a board screwed onto the upper level with a canvas wall bag attached for punching . On the lower uprights of the apparatus corresponding to shin ,knee and groin height I have covered in padding that I nicked umm I mean borrowed from work .

I then wound this in many layers of duct tape to keep it all together , on the bottom of the structure I glued small plywood skids on the bottom of it so it will have a little bit of give and be able to slide on our outdoor pavers .

As the original stand already had places to put weight plates on it to keep it stable I can vary the amount of weight on it and vary the resistance and sort of see how powerful my kicks are by how much it moves .

I also do hook kicks on it to condition my shins , It has improved my stance a great deal , and I pretty much use it all the time , much to the irritation of my neighbours .
 

Nabakatsu

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Gave me a good laugh envisioning all of that along with your neighbors looks of confused exasperated anguish :D
 
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