Long and short range Tan Sao

[guy b.]

** And if 'negate grappling' doesn't float your boat, fill in 'negate' with whatever term you like

I like good old anti grappling. It has a nice early 90s vibe to it and it pisses everyone off if you say it

 

[guy b.]

Thank you for the hypotheticals... I'll remember to make sure to enter and hit a guy before he tries to grab me, that strategy never occurred to me To be fair, I didn't even use the word "grappling".

You asked a load of questions that I answered. I take it you didn't like the answers? Hitting is wing chun stategy. Grappling is not. Make of that what you will.

Wing chun is a specialised tool for a particular job. It is a very good tool, maybe the best. But it isn't a multi tool that can do everything. If you try to use it in that way then you are kidding yourself. Your standing joint lock applications will look ridiculous against a decent grappler. Your throws will be weak. Your grip fighting will be pathetic. You will be destroyed because you will be playing someone else's game instead of your own.

If you find yourself grappling with someone, especially on the floor, then it is not the time for wing chun. That time has passed and your wing chun failed. Timescale of wing chun is sub 20 seconds, preferably sub 5 seconds. It is hitting and not letting up until the opponent falls down, all the while making it almost impossible to avoid being hit. It is a horrible thing to happen to a person, and it is very good at what it does.

 

[guy b.]

So you may call it grappling or anything else. name doesn't matter but fact is you must be able to deal with close range both being grabbed,held or throw/sweep attempts and you must also be able to keep the opponent close. This means you must understand how to control your balance ,break the opponents balance and finish with throw/sweep.

Grabbed? Punch to face

Held? Punch to face

Throw and sweep attempts? Don't allow these to happen. If they do then you are too late for wing chun. Maybe wing chun can resume if they fail, but you need to be fast

Wing chun does break balance but only with the intention of hitting, if just hitting is not an option. It is always about hitting. Finishing with a throw is not wing chun.

 

[guy b.]

Your opponent can always jump on you from behind. You may not use "bear hug from behind", but since you can't prevent your opponent from using it, you have to know how to deal with it.

Sometime the grappling just cannot be avoided.

Lol

What if your opponent gets the jump on you and you wake up with your hands tied together in the trunk of a car that is filling with water? Which wing chun moves to use?

 

[JPinAZ]

So you may call it grappling or anything else. name doesn't matter but fact is you must be able to deal with close range both being grabbed,held or throw/sweep attempts and you must also be able to keep the opponent close. This means you must understand how to control your balance ,break the opponents balance and finish with throw/sweep.

Agreed, except the underlined part isn't a requirement or a 'must' - just your personal preference and a nice added bonus for most.

 

[guy b.]

Wing chun is a thing that needs to happen really fast and not let up. I can't see how you end up throwing unless your wing chun fails

And if you do want to throw and grapple, why on earth look to wing chun for that skill? There are a million better places to look.

 

[JPinAZ]

Your opponent can always jump on you from behind. You may not use "bear hug from behind", but since you can't prevent your opponent from using it, you have to know how to deal with it.

Sometime the grappling just cannot be avoided.

Duh - thanks for stating the obvious lol
I don't believe anyone said grappling isn't going to happen, we've just been discussion different views on how Wing Chun deals with grappling. Any thoughts on that from a WC perspective?

 

[johnsimmons]

Agreed, except the underlined part isn't a requirement or a 'must' - just your personal preference and a nice added bonus for most.

Actually in our wing chun it is all part of the system not personal preference. Lo Kwai's notes are very clear. Our wing chun contains a large amount of close body work with many sweeping and throwing methods. I realize that this is not emphasized in more modern forms of wing chun but was and is most definitely part of Leung Jan's teaching as passed to Lo Kwai.

 

[johnsimmons]

Wing chun is a thing that needs to happen really fast and not let up. I can't see how you end up throwing unless your wing chun fails

And if you do want to throw and grapple, why on earth look to wing chun for that skill? There are a million better places to look.

Um, in the real world everything happens fast. I can assure you based on years of military and contract security work , training with the best special ops in the world and being in very close quarters with the enemy in Iraq ,Yemen, Ukraine and Belarus among others if you think you can punch out when you are grabbed it is best if you stay in your school. A trained man can throw you upon contact. It happens just as fast if not faster than you can punch.
Personally I have trained in Sambo and JJ for about 20years and my Kwai family wing chun close range skills have saved my life more than once.

 

[wckf92]

Actually in our wing chun it is all part of the system not personal preference. Lo Kwai's notes are very clear. Our wing chun contains a large amount of close body work with many sweeping and throwing methods. I realize that this is not emphasized in more modern forms of wing chun but was and is most definitely part of Leung Jan's teaching as passed to Lo Kwai.

@johnsimmons I haven't heard of Lo Kwai before...who is he? Does he/his lineage have any schools in the US? Thx

 

[PiedmontChun]

You asked a load of questions that I answered. I take it you didn't like the answers? Hitting is wing chun stategy. Grappling is not. Make of that what you will.

Wing chun is a specialised tool for a particular job. It is a very good tool, maybe the best. But it isn't a multi tool that can do everything. If you try to use it in that way then you are kidding yourself. Your standing joint lock applications will look ridiculous against a decent grappler. Your throws will be weak. Your grip fighting will be pathetic. You will be destroyed because you will be playing someone else's game instead of your own.

If you find yourself grappling with someone, especially on the floor, then it is not the time for wing chun. That time has passed and your wing chun failed. Timescale of wing chun is sub 20 seconds, preferably sub 5 seconds. It is hitting and not letting up until the opponent falls down, all the while making it almost impossible to avoid being hit. It is a horrible thing to happen to a person, and it is very good at what it does.

Dude, you are fighting a straw man. You are imagining arguments that frankly, I was not making. No one here is talking about Wing Chun being "grip fighting" or trying to out-grapple a grappler, and I never even mentioned ground fighting like you are bringing up. If someone throws a punch and my strike intercepts it, but they don't retract it, they are giving me an opportunity to possibly grab and control while I continue to strike. That might be prolonged contact, but that is Wing Chun. A headlock applied from the side can be countered with a over the arm fak sau movement to the opponent's face for example, but that is more than a strike. Its applying pressure to their head while simultaneously trying to step into their stance and uproot them, disrupting their grab. If I were opponent facing and hit the head but my other hand is blocked from replacing with another punch, why not dissipate my original punch and grab the back of their neck on its route back in order to disrupt? My descriptions might be lacking, but my point is that Wing Chun gives you options.
Its reductionist to look at the WC forms and say "this is all just to move an obstruction and hit, nothing more" like you appear to be saying.
In a potentially dangerous self defense situation, I'm glad my wing chun (as I am learning it) has tools to sweep or throw if the opportunity is there, so I can possibly strike the back of the head on the way down or stomp on them before practicing my run-fu to get the heck out of there, not hang around and punch until they are knocked out. Have you ever knocked anyone out? I'd like to think I could if I needed to , but I don't want my entire training to fail just because I have to knock them out to succeed.

 

[Vajramusti]

Wing chun is a thing that needs to happen really fast and not let up. I can't see how you end up throwing unless your wing chun fails

And if you do want to throw and grapple, why on earth look to wing chun for that skill? There are a million better places to look.

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Wing chun is not limited to punching/hitting... sheesh

 

[Danny T]

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Wing chun is not limited to punching/hitting... sheesh

Maybe his is limited to punching/hitting but the wing chun I have been exposed to certainly isn't.

 

[geezer]

At best, I think what you are saying is an oversimplification. What does Wing Chun do when the hands are tied up? What does Wing Chun do when being locked or pinned? What does Wing Chun do when an attacker grabs and tries to take to the ground? The goal is to hit, but WC/WT/VT has tools for all the above when hitting is either not possible or efficient.

Good points, but Guy b is correct in that all that we do is ultimately directed at striking. What is our best defense against a wrist grab? Not huen sau/circle hand, not tut sau/freeing arm. The first, most efficient response is ...a punch!

I guess I've been thinking more about WC's focus lately. Just this last Sunday I drove up to Sedona to meet with an old friend (definitely old, about 73 or something) who is a highly ranked WC sifu (with WT roots like me). As a youth he was a power lifter, a boxer and a high level TKD guy who was on Jhoon Rhee's demo team. Now, with two artificial knees he sticks to WC and Escrima.

On a break from training he commented that as much as he loves WC and believes it to be effective, he feels that WC really does have NO ground game, that most WC schools don't spar enough, underestimate boxers, and seriously underestimate how damaging good, old-school TKD kicks can be. He felt that cross-training WC, a good long range kicking art, and some good grappling would be ideal. After a moment, he also added Escrima and tactical firearms training to the list (he does both). ...Smart old guy IMO.

 

[geezer]

BTW ...the previous post is a bit delayed and out of context. I wrote it yesterday but by some glitch it didn't post until today. Still worth sharing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't believe anyone said grappling isn't going to happen, we've just been discussion different views on how Wing Chun deals with grappling. Any thoughts on that from a WC perspective?

That is the question that I would like to ask you. When someone gets you into a "bear hug" from behind, first, you will need to break that "hug". Which WC principle will you use to achieve that?

IMO, what you will do after you have broken that "hug" may be different between style to style (You may punch him if you are a striker. You may take him down if you are a grappler.) But how to break that "hug" is a general MA issue which will have nothing to do with "WC perspective".

 

[JPinAZ]

Answering a question with a question? sorry, not going to play that game. But yes, you can break a bear hug with WC principle/methods, given you aren't already lifted off the ground or fully locked down.

To be frank, while it's always good to know how 'the other side' does thing, I'm not really interested in discussing basic generalities with you (as it seems you always steer discussions). I'd rather stick to the current topic and discuss from WC perspective. So, if that interests you, let's hear what you have to say regarding how you deal with grappling from a WC perspective?

 

[guy b.]

That is the question that I would like to ask you. When someone gets you into a "bear hug" from behind, first, you will need to break that "hug". Which WC principle will you use to achieve that?

IMO, what you will do after you have broken that "hug" may be different between style to style (You may punch him if you are a striker. You may take him down if you are a grappler.) But how to break that "hug" is a general MA issue which will have nothing to do with "WC perspective".

There is no effective wing chun response to a bear hug. If you are bear hugged then it is not time for wing chun.

There are wing chun "responses" to bear hugs, but mostly they are stupid and unworkable and based on a misunderstanding of what grappling entails. If you find yourself in a bear hug your best bet is to have trained bjj, the most effective grappling method available.

 

[guy b.]

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Wing chun is not limited to punching/hitting... sheesh

What is more simple, direct and efficient than punching someone in the face?

 

[guy b.]

Dude, you are fighting a straw man. You are imagining arguments that frankly, I was not making. No one here is talking about Wing Chun being "grip fighting" or trying to out-grapple a grappler, and I never even mentioned ground fighting like you are bringing up. If someone throws a punch and my strike intercepts it, but they don't retract it, they are giving me an opportunity to possibly grab and control while I continue to strike. That might be prolonged contact, but that is Wing Chun. A headlock applied from the side can be countered with a over the arm fak sau movement to the opponent's face for example, but that is more than a strike. Its applying pressure to their head while simultaneously trying to step into their stance and uproot them, disrupting their grab. If I were opponent facing and hit the head but my other hand is blocked from replacing with another punch, why not dissipate my original punch and grab the back of their neck on its route back in order to disrupt? My descriptions might be lacking, but my point is that Wing Chun gives you options.
Its reductionist to look at the WC forms and say "this is all just to move an obstruction and hit, nothing more" like you appear to be saying.
In a potentially dangerous self defense situation, I'm glad my wing chun (as I am learning it) has tools to sweep or throw if the opportunity is there, so I can possibly strike the back of the head on the way down or stomp on them before practicing my run-fu to get the heck out of there, not hang around and punch until they are knocked out. Have you ever knocked anyone out? I'd like to think I could if I needed to , but I don't want my entire training to fail just because I have to knock them out to succeed.

As a non-grappler you are not fighting to your strengths in grabbing someone. Why would you do that? Why chase hands? Why not punch them instead?

Non retracted punches are a fantasy by the way. Doesn't happen in reality

You cannot rely on countering anything that a good grappler does with a fak sau to the face. If you want to grapple then learn the optimised methods of grappling from grappling MA, and ignore the pitiful grappling applications that people insist on dragging from the wing chun forms. It is literally insane to grapple with wing chun.