Advanced Wing Chun Structure

Kung Fu Wang

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Sifu Paul agrees with this method. Which is why all pfs people are supposed to seek coaches and teachers to further delve into the different ranges.
The interested question is should the task to cross the striking art into the grappling art be the responsibility of a WC instructor, or a grappling instructor who cross trains the WC system?
 
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geezer

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The interested question is should the task to cross the striking art into the grappling art be the responsibility of a WC instructor, or a grappling instructor who cross trains the WC system?
If an instructor is going to teach how to make the transition from striking to grappling, they need to have some solid knowledge of both arts. If that cross-training knowledge is not very deep, the best thing would be to have experts in each area work together and combine their knowledge.

In short, the best answer to your question would be "Both!"
 

angelariz

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The interested question is should the task to cross the striking art into the grappling art be the responsibility of a WC instructor, or a grappling instructor who cross trains the WC system?
I think any instructor worth their salt will explore all ranges and defend common attacks in those ranges.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I think any instructor worth their salt will explore all ranges and defend common attacks in those ranges.
- What should be the extension of the WC sticky hand? under hook, over hook, head lock, neck choke, bear hug, waist wrap, ...
- How to integrate it into the current WC sticky hand training? Start from single sticky hand, or start from double sticky hands?
- What will you call it? Snake arm sounds a good name.
- Who wants to obtain the credit to produce the first video? Whoever does this will get the credit - help WC to bridge into the grappling art.

IMO, it makes sense to use

- Tan Shou to achieve over hook, head lock.
- Bon Shou to achieve under hook, bear hug, waist wrap.
- Pak Shou to achieve back neck choke.
- Fut Shou to achieve arm control.
- ...
 
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angelariz

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- What should be the extension of the WC sticky hand? under hook, over hook, head lock, neck choke, bear hug, waist wrap, ...
- How to integrate it into the current WC sticky hand training? Start from single sticky hand, or start from double sticky hands?
- What will you call it? Snake arm sounds a good name.
- Who wants to obtain the credit to produce the first video? Whoever does this will get the credit - help WC to bridge into the grappling art.

IMO, it makes sense to use

- Tan Shou to achieve over hook, head lock.
- Bon Shou to achieve under hook, bear hug, waist wrap.
- Pak Shou to achieve back neck choke.
- Fut Shou to achieve arm control.
- ...
I have been making Chis Sau link to grappling for many years. It doesn't take a system. If you are half way competent in chi sau, grapling transitions are natural.
Do not look for VC to teach grapling.
Practice setting up an arm drag to seat belt and your skill sets will fill in the gaps.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Do not look for VC to teach grapling.
You can learn the grappling skill from the grappling art. But you cannot learn "how to achieve a clinch during a fist flying situation" from the grappling art. Can you learn it through any striking art? Many striking art don't have the sticky hand training (Taiji has similar push hand training).

So WC sticky hand and Taiji push hand are both excellent bridges for this task.
 
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geezer

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I've been doing it for 30 years, almost.
Have you been drilling it out of a chi-sau format? When I wrestled as a youth, I loved the arm drag, but there are some issues applying it in chi-sau from a Wing Chun perspective:

First, in order to execute a classic arm drag by grabbing your opponent's wrist and behind his elbow, you need to break a Wing Chun rule and use two arms to control one. Not generally a good idea for a striker. This increases your chance of being hit (unless you've set it up really well) and at the same time prevents you from hitting him.

Secondly, in chi sau, you are already at a striking range. If you can set up an arm drag, controlling position well enough to be able to grab both wrist and elbow without being hit ...then you can almost certainly just hit him instead. Seeing as Wing Chun is a striking art, this makes more sense.

Ok, maybe I'm really just saying the same thing twice here ...that a classic, two-handed arm drag is a grappling move that sets you up to take your opponent's back, take him down, and control his body. Wonderful ...but not particularly helpful in a striking oriented drill like chi-sau.

Now that said, there are some variations on the arm-drag concept that can be integrated into chi sau.

1. The lap-palm or lap punch entry used in the WT system's first chi sau-section. Not exactly a classic "arm-drag" since it uses only one hand on each arm, but nevertheless it's a great entry leading to a tight clinch and a sweep/throw finish. Done right, it has a good success rate.

Here's the basic dynamic of this entry demonstrated a long time ago by my old sifu. For the gist of it check out 7:45-8:30:

2. Another way to integrate a more typical wrestler's arm drag would be as a follow up to a simple inward-angled low punch over your opponent's tan-sau. A typical follow-up would be pak-da followed by chain punches. Instead of converting your punch to pak, you could follow up catching your opponent's elbow and going for the arm drag. I've made it work ...but is it worth it?

...Sorry, don't have any video.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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First, in order to execute a classic arm drag by grabbing your opponent's wrist and behind his elbow, you need to break a Wing Chun rule and use two arms to control one. Not generally a good idea for a striker. This increases your chance of being hit (unless you've set it up really well) and at the same time prevents you from hitting him.

Secondly, in chi sau, you are already at a striking range. If you can set up an arm drag, controlling position well enough to be able to grab both wrist and elbow without being hit ...then you can almost certainly just hit him instead. Seeing as Wing Chun is a striking art, this makes more sense.
If you use your left hand to pull my right wrist to my left, you will make my body to spin to my left. In order for me to use my left hand to punch you, I need to spin my body to my right. Your left hand pull by itself can prevent my left punch already.

The arm drag is the same as the CMA "switch hands". You use left hand to control my right wrist, when you use your right hand to pull my right elbow, you can free your left hand, you can then use your left hand to strike on my face. So the arm drag is not only used in wrestling art. It's also used in striking art.

For example, I have right side forward. You have left side forward (mirror stance).

1. You use your leading left hand to pull my leading right wrist.
2. You use right hand to pull my right elbow (to free your left hand).
3. Your left hand palm strike on my face.

This 1, 2, 3 "switch hands" can be as fast as 1 move. If you use your left leg to control my leg, you can take me down to. So whether you use arm drag as striking art, or grappling art, it depends on whether you apply your "leg skill" or not.

Also, the issue is whether or not a WC guy want to cross that striking art to grappling art boundary.

Example of switch hands (arm drag) - right hand wrist control, left hand elbow control, right hand strike.

You can see that it's so fast that your opponent doesn't have chance to punch back.

Brendan-switch-hand-1.gif
 
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geezer

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If you use your left hand to pull my right wrist to my left, you will make my body to spin to my left. In order for me to use my left hand to punch you, I need to spin my body to my right. Your left hand pull by itself can prevent my left punch already.

Yes. This is what I mean by controlling position. The movement demonstrated by Leung Ting in the old video shown above accomplishes this while maintaining control of both arms and not committing two hands to one.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Yes. This is what I mean by controlling position. The movement demonstrated by Leung Ting in the old video shown above accomplishes this while maintaining control of both arms and not committing two hands to one.
If you can put one hand on your opponent's leading arm elbow joint, you can push his leading arm to jam his back arm. At the same time your other hand can punch to his face. This way, you don't need 2 on 1.

IMO, this move is so important, but it's not part of the WC sticky hand training.

Why?
 

geezer

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Example of switch hands (arm drag) - right hand wrist control, left hand elbow control, right hand strike.

You can see that it's so fast that your opponent doesn't have chance to punch back.

View attachment 26840
Breandan Lai's movement above is indeed fast but it is not really a great example for this discussion since:

1. It is not anything like an arm drag....
2. It leaves Sifu Lai in a position with his center facing away from his opponent and with his opponent's arms uncontrolled....
3. It depends upon unequal speed. Yes it is possible to do two movements as fast as your opponent can do one ...if they are done simultaneously. Doing several sequential movements faster than your opponent can respond is not such a great idea outside of "demos".

In short, by the standards of Wing Chun, and the standards of wrestling, the sequence as shown in the gif is problematic. Perhaps it would make more sense seen in context.
 
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geezer

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If you can put one hand on your opponent's leading arm elbow joint, you can push his leading arm to jam his back arm. At the same time your other hand can punch to his face. This way, you don't need 2 on 1.

IMO, this move is so important, but it's not part of the WC sticky hand training.

Why?
What you describe is trained very early on in our double-arm chi-sau ...that's we we label it "Section 1".

Take another look at what Leung Sifu demonstrates in the old video I posted above. He moves his left hand forward on his opponent's extended right arm, he grabs it just behind the elbow and pins it to the left, across his opponent's chest, forcing his opponent to the left and making it momentarily impossible for his opponent to bring either hand into play to strike back.

That is the simplified explanation. Of course there is a lot of finesse required to set this up and apply it against resistance.
 
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geezer

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BTW, I see the EWTO people have labeled Leung Sifu's movement in the video I provided as zugangriff. Basically, I'd call it an entry-grapple ...since I don't speak German or Cantonese.

It is kind of a "sheung-lap-sau" or double-arm snap. It isn't a pull at all, but a short, sharp, lateral snap using body-pivot power. Your energy must be explosive and springy. In other words....

"It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that spring... doo-wah doo-wah doo-wah doo-wah doo-wah...

...my apologies to Ella Fitzgerald. ;)
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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It isn't a pull at all, but a short, sharp, lateral snap using body-pivot power.
You can borrow the counter force of your pulling. This way you can move in faster than you can move in with just your own speed.

If you always move in through the side door (as in the following clip), can the WC double sticky hand training (your right arm deal with your opponent's left arm, your left arm deal with his right arm) be needed?

Your thought?

 
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geezer

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You can borrow the counter force of your pulling. This way you can move in faster than you can move in with just your own speed.

If you always move in through the side door (as in the following clip), can the WC double sticky hand training (your right arm deal with your opponent's left arm, your left arm deal with his right arm) be needed?

Your thought?

Several thoughts.

1. You say: You can borrow the counter-force of your pulling. Yes. In fact you have to to get any speed.

2. You advocate entering through the side door. Yes. ...Or you can do a split entry like Leung Ting did in his video. That also allows you to put pressure across your opponent's body (your left arm pinning his right arm across, or your right pinning his left) and keep him from being able to punch you as you move in close.

3. What you do in your video makes good sense to me, however you are not starting from the closer chi-sau range with each arm contacting one of your opponent's. So the details are different, but the concept is the same.

4. 1. If that is your driveway, you live in a beautiful, green place. On the other hand I live in Phoenix and ....Summer is coming. :eek:
 

geezer

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Hey John- We did our usual Sunday training at the park this morning and spent a lot of time playing with arm-drags from Chi-Sau. Good stuff. One thing we discovered was that:

People with some basic grappling instincts (like me) like to take the back and move in really close to gain body control over our opponent.

Other people like to keep their personal space and work at a striking distance while leaving some space between their body and their opponent's. This can work too for a close-range striking-style like Wing Chun.

The problem, from my perspective, is that the strikers who are not prepared to grapple are more vulnerable. Working in-close, like we do in WC, you may have to grapple whether you want to or not.
 
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