Advanced Wing Chun Structure

Kung Fu Wang

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3. What you do in your video makes good sense to me, however you are not starting from the closer chi-sau range with each arm contacting one of your opponent's. So the details are different, but the concept is the same.
IMO, the arm drag and switch hands are similar, but the starting point are different.

Arm drag - You use your right hand to grab your opponent's left wrist, you use your left hand to grab his left elbow, you then pull his left arm toward your left side.

Switch hands - You use your right hand to grab your opponent's right wrist, you use your left hand to grab his right elbow, you then pull his right arm toward your right side.

Since arm drag start with your right arm deal with your opponent's left arm, it may suit the WC double sticky hand better.

This just lead to another question - Why did the WC double sticky hands start from your right arm to deal with your opponent's left arm? It seems to me that to start from your right arm deal with your opponent's right arm can be as important (if not more important).

What's your though on this?

In this clip, his starts from his right arm deals with his opponent's right arm. He was using "switch hands" without the wrist pulling.

Bruce-Lee-switch-hand-1.gif
 

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geezer

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IMO, the arm drag and switch hands are similar, but the starting point are different. What's your though on this?

In this clip, his starts from his right arm deals with his opponent's right arm. He was using "switch hands" without the wrist pulling.

View attachment 26856In chi-sauI
One thought is that, as you said, "the starting points are different."

In the Bruce Lee clip from Enter the Dragon, Lee and Bob Wall (playing O'hara) are starting at a longer, "semi-detached" range with only one hand touching. Lee explodes forward using a left pak-sau to free his right lead which springs forward and pops Wall in the nose. This type of "switch hands" as you call it is basic to WC. I prefer to see it as "freeing the attacking hand to thrust forward" so we can follow our motto "...lat sau jik chung."

In chi-sau, you are closer to your partner, both hands are touching, and either hand can hit directly if freed ...so each hand must control the hand it is in contact with, or else you must use one hand to control two before you try to release your "stick". So, to enter inside with a left pak-sau and right punch, for example, I prefer to step in close with my pak-sau so that my forearm functions as a lan-sau controlling both my opponent's arms with one of my arms. So... better than just "switch hands", I have control of two with one, freeing the other to strike.

In the video below, go to 1:05 - 1:18, slowed to 0.5 speed to see something similar to the inside pak-sau attack in chi-sau I described above. Notice how the attacker's forearm acts like a lan-sau to pin and control his opponent's rear arm as he executes his pak-da attack.

Inside Pak-da from Chi-Sau:


Yesterday when I was playing with arm-drags in chi-sau, I was very aware of the need to "control two hands with one" ...so we initiated the arm-drag attack much like the inside gate pak-da described above, using except instead of applying a pak, I initiated with a low, left punch, then my left hand moved across (like the pak-sau in the video) and caught my opponent's left arm behind the elbow ...as my right circled and caught his left wrist for an instantaneous "switch hands" trade off (no hanging out in the two arms on-on one position) leading to a quick snap-across arm-drag and enter via the side-gate. Complicated to describe, not so complicated to do.

As above, my left forearm momentarily functioned as a lan-sau pinning and controlling my opponent's left. This gave me the instant of control I needed to safely execute the move at the closer chi-sau range.

The real question is why? That is why would you choose to attempt a potentially risky arm-drag rather than the "bread and butter" inside pak-da? This is a question we discussed at training. What we came up with is this. Inside pak-da is a very effective chi-sau attack. Often you can score at least one or two easy hits if you know how to apply it. Then... it can get messy. In sparring you end up trading punches. Sorta like the "milling" done by young British recruits. Great for training aggression, determination, and "grit" in troops. Not so much for skill in chi-sau.

Milling:

The advantage of a move like the modified arm-drag described above is that it puts you to the outside and potentially even behind your opponent. Now that's a far better place to be to follow up your initial attack and finish the job ...without just trading punches.
 
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Oily Dragon

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I hate to break it to you, but dragons are myth. They don't exist. How can you be taught to move like something that never existed? Or, equally true, any movement of any sort can be called "like a dragon" and you can't prove otherwise.

Dragons don't exist? I beg to differ.

1622514057449.png


The entire history of human artwork contains dragons, and in particular the Chinese dragons are very specifically defined throughout literature, and especially throughout the Yongchuen Kuen.

The central motif in southern Chinese hand to hand wrestling is undeniably dragon-esque.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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The real question is why?
WC guys (also praying mantis guys) all believe in Pak Shou. They don't like grabbing.

- Pak Shou is like "glue". It gives you temporary connection.
- Grabbing is like "hook". It gives you much longer connection.

Many years ago, a friend of mine said, "If I can move faster than you, none of your move will work on me." His comment bothered me for a lot time. One day, I realized that if I can put a hook to connect his body and mine, his fast move will pull my body with him, and his speed won't do him any good.

Both arm drag and switch hands can give me that "hook".
 

geezer

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WC guys (also praying mantis guys) all believe in Pak Shou. They don't like grabbing.

- Pak Shou is like "glue". It gives you temporary connection.
- Grabbing is like "hook". It gives you much longer connection.

Many years ago, a friend of mine said, "If I can move faster than you, none of your move will work on me." His comment bothered me for a lot time. One day, I realized that if I can put a hook to connect his body and mine, his fast move will pull my body with him, and his speed won't do him any good.

Both arm drag and switch hands can give me that "hook".
I'm a WC guy who does use "hooks"...they can be very useful, especially when your opponent tries to pull away. You can really stick with him!

BTW, we had another class tonight working at applying and countering arm drags in chi-sau and lat-sau drills. Interesting results. When your partner resists the arm drag and tries to pull away, the "hook" really helps you move fast and get a great position.
 

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Dragons don't exist? I beg to differ.

View attachment 26862

The entire history of human artwork contains dragons, and in particular the Chinese dragons are very specifically defined throughout literature, and especially throughout the Yongchuen Kuen.

The central motif in southern Chinese hand to hand wrestling is undeniably dragon-esque.
The history of humanity is filled with lots of mythology. If you actually think dragons are/were real, fine. There are certainly lots of delusional people out there, and that particular delusion seems fairly harmless.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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countering arm drags ...
Most of the time when your opponent applies arm drag on you, he wants to move behind of you. If you can step in to block/trap his leg and use your arm to push his body, he will fall by your "body squeeze".

Your opponent tries to use circular footwork to move around you. You use straight line footwork to cut in front of him. It's an excellent strategy. Your opponent tries to pull you toward southeast direction. You move toward southwest direction.

arm-drag-counter.gif
 
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hunschuld

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Wing Chun basic rule is go with the pull. What you are showing is basic WC. However I don't think what you are showing is really an arm drag from a wrestling pov. A Russian Tie or 2 on one would be done to the outside not inside and would be done in such a way as to prevent the step in that you are showing via arm control and stepping tight to the side of the opponent.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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However I don't think what you are showing is really an arm drag from a wrestling pov. A Russian Tie or 2 on one would be done to the outside not inside and would be done in such a way as to prevent the step in that you are showing via arm control and stepping tight to the side of the opponent.
I'm not sure what A Russian Tie, or 2 on 1 that you are talking about?

The definition of "arm drag" is to use the 1st hand to grab opponent's wrist. You then use the 2nd hand to pull his elbow, and free your 1st hand.

You can use "arm drag" to move from

1. side door into front door - you have to deal with your opponent's other arm. But you are now in your opponent's front door. All your back touch your opponent's chest throws can be applied now.

The counter for this will be different. A bear hug will be a good counter.

reverse-arm-holding.gif


2. front door into side door - you can then move into back door if you want to. All your chest touch your opponent's back throws can be applied now.

In this clip, A uses left hand to grab B's right wrist. A then uses right hand to pull B's right elbow, and tries to move toward B's right side door.

arm-drag-counter.gif
View attachment 26867

In this clip, A uses right hand to grab B's left wrist. A then uses left hand to pull B's left elbow, and tries to move toward B's left side door.

 
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hunschuld

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In looking at things from a strict WC POV. Lop Sau= arm drag. Lop's are both inner and outer. The throw you show in the first clip of the three is found in the very first section of the wooden dummy. Strict basic WC would lop inside the elbow upper forearm instead of outside the elbow as shown.

Clip number 2 is a very poor arm drag to use when striking is allowed. perfectly ok when just grappling without strikes. The arm dragger is crossing his center line and his head is wide open and angled for a knockout strike. It is a speed move.ie success relies on speed of the dragger vs reaction time of defender.
Clip 3 same thing crossing body to drag opposite arm leaves one open for a strike among other things. Also success depends on head position and depth of step. Again speed vs opponents awareness and reaction time. I don't believe in doing moves that leave my head open for a clean strike. good grappling move though.

Now to more wing chun.

Russian tie is a basic move found in freestyle,greco roman and catch wrestling as well as BJJ and Judo although I would guess BJJ incorporated it from wrestling . It is done to the outside so to punch you the opponent has to cross his own body.

In wing chun we have the double lop as geezer showed above( please don't perform it in a way that you destroy your own ACL the way Leung Ting is). The double lop is done with straight arms to prevent the shoulder charge and is either a direct pull into a face plant or you kick out a knee as you drag the arm .

If you fail and you get a lan sau or a shoulder charge you change to a move directly out of most pole forms that is identical to the Russian Tie or the two on one as it is also called. Here you pull the arm tight to you body across your lower chest or abdominal area . Control wrist and elbow. You step deep into the outside shoulder area of your opponent using your dropping body weight to keep control of the arm and keeping him off balance. this leads to 3 lop chop variations including an easy arm break and 2 different throws/sweeps.

In grappling this position leads to various take downs. Also several standing submissions
 

geezer

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In wing chun we have the double lop as geezer showed above( please don't perform it in a way that you destroy your own ACL the way Leung Ting is)...
Thanks for your concern, Hunter, but I am already quite knowledgeable about destroying my own ACL ...I succeeded in doing that, all by my self, while skiing about 20 some years ago. I've also had some bad breaks and a spiral fracture, not to mention some congenital bone anomalies which make my stance-work less than "textbook perfect". ;)

On the other hand, I never (yet) have experienced a severe stress to my knee doing the move that Leung Ting is shown demonstrating in that old videoclip. Perhaps the video doesn't accurately show how he is positioning and weighting his legs ... I can't say.

I will say that there are a lot of knee locks and "shin bites" integrated into the Leung Ting chi-sau movements, especially as practiced by the European branches, such as the EWTO. LT would occasionally demonstrate these, but I was also exposed to these by Emin (who has very long, strong, and boney legs). The movements are very effective, but I will not do them as I feel that they are just too risky for both partners (attacker and defender). This is backed up by personal experiences from back when I was young and trained "as I was told". Now I try to think for myself, especially where my health is involved.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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A Russian Tie or 2 on one ...
Since you have mentioned the WC Lop Sau, I think I know what Russian Tie is. In CMA, the

- arm drag is called "Dao Shou - arm drag".
- Russian Tie or 2 on 1 is called "Lou Shou - double pulling hands".

Is this the Russian Tie (2 on 1) at 3.40?

 
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hunschuld

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Thanks for your concern, Hunter, but I am already quite knowledgeable about destroying my own ACL ...I succeeded in doing that, all by my self, while skiing about 20 some years ago. I've also had some bad breaks and a spiral fracture, not to mention some congenital bone anomalies which make my stance-work less than "textbook perfect". ;)

On the other hand, I never (yet) have experienced a severe stress to my knee doing the move that Leung Ting is shown demonstrating in that old videoclip. Perhaps the video doesn't accurately show how he is positioning and weighting his legs ... I can't say.

I will say that there are a lot of knee locks and "shin bites" integrated into the Leung Ting chi-sau movements, especially as practiced by the European branches, such as the EWTO. LT would occasionally demonstrate these, but I was also exposed to these by Emin (who has very long, strong, and boney legs). The movements are very effective, but I will not do them as I feel that they are just too risky for both partners (attacker and defender). This is backed up by personal experiences from back when I was young and trained "as I was told". Now I try to think for myself, especially where my health is involved.
I understand I have done more damage to my body myself than any outside force has done although I don't think I can blame myself for my brain tumor but one day the doc's may tell me I caused that too!

My point about LT is that I believe we have a duty to point out problems or issues with anything that anyone teaches so those that follow will be better than we are. Look at 6.38.6.59,7,32., 8.14 he is pulling the person directly into the shift leg at 7.46 and 8.05 he is pulling the person directly into the side of his shifted leg knee and 8.23 he roasts his own chestnuts. If he was working with strangers and not his own line of students something very bad may have occurred. From my POV that is just not the correct way to perform or demonstrate the move
 

hunschuld

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Since you have mentioned the WC Lop Sau, I think I know what Russian Tie is. In CMA, the

- arm drag is called "Dao Shou - arm drag".
- Russian Tie or 2 on 1 is called "Lou Shou - double pulling hands".

Is this the Russian Tie (2 on 1) at 3.40?

yes basically this is it however the front hand should be using the pole grip. Front hand under fingers on top. wrestlers would be practicing in a different way. This a correct general lop sau position.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Look at 6.38.6.59,7,32., 8.14 he is pulling the person directly into the shift leg at 7.46 and 8.05 he is pulling the person directly into the side of his shifted leg knee and 8.23
Does stealing step, or wheeling step that you move yourself outside of your opponent's incoming path commonly used in WC?
 

geezer

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Yes, I would.
I understand I have done more damage to my body myself than any outside force has done although I don't think I can blame myself for my brain tumor but one day the doc's may tell me I caused that too!

My point about LT is that I believe we have a duty to point out problems or issues with anything that anyone teaches so those that follow will be better than we are. Look at 6.38.6.59,7,32., 8.14 he is pulling the person directly into the shift leg at 7.46 and 8.05 he is pulling the person directly into the side of his shifted leg knee and 8.23 he roasts his own chestnuts. If he was working with strangers and not his own line of students something very bad may have occurred. From my POV that is just not the correct way to perform or demonstrate the move
Hunter, I see you have looked at this clip with some care. In response, all I can say is that there are a lot of different things happening in this video. And like a lot of LT's demo's it is loose and spontaneous, parts are exaggerated for emphasis, ...even "hammed-up" a little. That's just the way LT explains his stuff.

At some points LT is deliberately altering his footwork, and eliminating the front step to show the use of the turn and rebound energy to power the technique ... and this makes it look like the student is crashing forward into the side of his lead (right) leg. This is not a problem when you step forward (as you normally do) with that leg.

Another thing to consider: In LT's "WT" system, when turned or advancing, the lead leg is unweighted and is kept flexible to use offensively and defensively ....almost like man-sau. You could call it a "man-gherk" strategy. This allows the led to flex and absorb impact. When he dos the complete movement with the advancing step, I really don't think his ACL is in danger.

Now as far as his "chestnuts" go ...knowing the man's history regarding women ...there's no way I'm even going there! :eek:
 

geezer

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Yes, I would.
If you use this movement as shown and enter with the left (outside foot) you cannot use the mini-turn and rebound energy being demonstrated (in an exaggerated way) here. Nor can you pierce your opponent's stance (yap-ghurk) attacking and uprooting his center the same way.

Yes, it is possible to attack with the outside leg, but it is an entirely different movement. And not one that capitalizes on LT's concept of "Springy Energy".

Personally, I think this is a case of misconstruing what is really being taught based on an watching an imperfect video. Without feeling what is going on, it is easy to focus on the sketchy details.
 

hunschuld

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Does stealing step, or wheeling step that you move yourself outside of your opponent's incoming path commonly used in WC?
WC doesn't have footwork using those names however all WC I have seen has foot work to move out of incoming path and for getting to the sides or inside angles. If you look at Chum Kiu the footwork is not limited to how it is performed in the form. I can use that foot work to move off the line at 90 degrees forward and backward I can use it to go forward 45 degrees or back on an angle. Moving on from Chum Kiu.
The dummy has even more footwork to move outside and the Pole and Knives even more. Third form teaches the circle step which can be used as moving off the center and then cutting into the center from the side.

The issue with wing chun footwork is receiving energy and then how one performs swallow, float,sink ,spit. If someone cant recieve well then they will have footwork limitations keeping things simple which is not necessarily a bad thing.
 
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