Long and short range Tan Sao
- Thread starter futsaowingchun
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Well which is it??
Besides the obvious contradiction above, every picture you've posted and many of your references having little-to-nothing to do with WC. Sorry, but I'm not sure if you're being serious or just having a go at this point.
If that's all it is to you, I won't argue. But we are clearly on 2 totally different ideas of what WC is to continue this discussion further. (not to mention I am not 100% sure you are being fully genuine in this discussion per the first 2 quotes above) Thanks for sharing anyway!
This a "long Tang Shou". You can see how easy that his fingers can attack his opponent's eyes.
Good picture. In our branch we probably wouldn't consider this a "tan sau", regardless of the hand position. Now it may have been tan sau a moment before, but at this point it appears to be freed from compression and is springing forward to strike. At this point the hand could of course gouge the eyes, slip aside and strike as a spade-palm, rotate into a palm strike or close into a fist. What weapon you put on the end of your arm is not as important as the energy behind the weapon.
Even Mr. Han realized, perhaps too late ...that the weapon on the end of your arm is not as important as what you can do with that arm!
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140618030006/villains/images/c/c3/HAN.jpg
If your both arms are inside of your opponent's both arms, you can do many different things. Are you saying the following situations have nothing to do with WC?
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Do that have'nothing to do with WC'? I don't know because I don't even know what you're really talking about at this point. But they surely have nothing to do with WC taan sau (which is the subject - or was), and I'm pretty sure you're just taking the piss, so I have nothing more to say.
Vajramusti
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agree
I think he wants to talk about how wing chun relates to grappling opportunites, or how it is the same as other chinese ma. Have to say I don't really understand the point either...
WC doesn't relate to grappling opportunities - grappling and WC are 2 different trains-of-thought in terms of fighting strategy, body methods and ranges. WC's goal is to negate grappling to allow for controlled striking with a very specific ranges, facing and structural alignments. To use it as a 'tool' to grapple with is really missing the point of WC IMO.
I think I agree too. On the other hand we do some simple sweeps and throws. But that's not really grappling.
Jake104
Black Belt
Just depends on ones interpretation of what grappling means? The definition that google found for me was,
1grap·ple
\ˈgra-pəl\noun
1
a :the act or an instance ofgrappling
b :a hand-to-hand struggle
c :a contest for superiority or mastery
Personally my interpretation is when contact or a bridge is made, that's grappling. It doesn't necessarily mean that then we wrestle. Maybe I fight for positioning to punch the crap out of you? I don't know? Depends on how I'm feeling that day?
I think wing chun is not grappling because the intention is always to hit. If you are struggling or contesting hand against hand as per your definition then you are grappling I agree. But in a wing chun context this means that grappling is chasing hands.
Wing chun only seeks to move hands so that it can hit; it never contests space.
Wing chun only upsets balance so that it can hit; it never contests balance.
Wing chun is hitting first and being able to keep hitting.
PiedmontChun
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At best, I think what you are saying is an oversimplification. What does Wing Chun do when the hands are tied up? What does Wing Chun do when being locked or pinned? What does Wing Chun do when an attacker grabs and tries to take to the ground? The goal is to hit, but WC/WT/VT has tools for all the above when hitting is either not possible or efficient.
WC looks to free up the hands when bound, grabbed, tied-up etc using WC tools with the goal of hitting. So if WC's goal is to hit unrestrained, we look to 'negate grappling' using WC tools and body methods to remove one's-self from that grappling timeframe and not resorting to wrestling or grappling methods (of course, it doesn't always go as planned! lol)
To use grabbing techniques against grabs for example would be committing to 'grappling'. If I look to lock up with my opponent, it is counter to WC's goal of striking and ties my hands up voluntarily.
** And if 'negate grappling' doesn't float your boat, fill in 'negate' with whatever term you like
To use grabbing techniques against grabs for example would be committing to 'grappling'. If I look to lock up with my opponent, it is counter to WC's goal of striking and ties my hands up voluntarily.
** And if 'negate grappling' doesn't float your boat, fill in 'negate' with whatever term you like
You are basically asking "what does wing chun do when wing chun fails".
If your hands are tied up (not sure what that means exactly) then you look to clear the way for hitting or hit along another line using wing chun methods.
If you attacker attempts to grab then basically you enter and hit and finish it asap. You cut the way, you remove any obstruction, you turn him and upset his balance, you crash his stance, but above all you do these things so that you can hit him and knock him out quickly. You do not tolerate sustained arm or body contact that is not helping you to hit. You don't play his game. You connect your fist repeatedly with his chin and end the fight.
If you are on the ground being locked or pinned then sorry your wing chun failed. Bad luck. Time to hope you trained bjj.
Wing chun is not invincible, but just because you find yourself in a bad position it doesn't suddely become about grappling. Wing chun is about hitting. That is all.
PiedmontChun
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Thank you for the hypotheticals... I'll remember to make sure to enter and hit a guy before he tries to grab me, that strategy never occurred to me
To be fair, I didn't even use the word "grappling".johnsimmons
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I think our wing chun is different than others based on what I read here. We do not differentiate between boxing and grappling. The goal and practice to to close range and get up their shirt. Kicks,to punch to elbow to sweep/ throw . We drive through the opponent. We do not try to maintain a punching range. We do not want to let someone move away and maintain range. The ground is our friend. I want to either have the back of the opponents head or the front hit the ground as violently as possible. We also will lock a leg and used a standing choke if that is what is called for.
In my experience you get grabbed when close. People with skill will throw you in some fashion. Only in sport have I had the luxury of staying at boxing range. Yes when fighting the untrained you can overwhelm them with punches but that is not what will happen when facing trained and or real people set on hurting or killing you.
You also do not want to close the gap and have the other person move away. Closing the gap is the most dangerous time in a fight the less you do it the better . If they are able to move away then the fight takes longer opening you up to more trouble.
So you may call it grappling or anything else. name doesn't matter but fact is you must be able to deal with close range both being grabbed,held or throw/sweep attempts and you must also be able to keep the opponent close. This means you must understand how to control your balance ,break the opponents balance and finish with throw/sweep.
In my experience you get grabbed when close. People with skill will throw you in some fashion. Only in sport have I had the luxury of staying at boxing range. Yes when fighting the untrained you can overwhelm them with punches but that is not what will happen when facing trained and or real people set on hurting or killing you.
You also do not want to close the gap and have the other person move away. Closing the gap is the most dangerous time in a fight the less you do it the better . If they are able to move away then the fight takes longer opening you up to more trouble.
So you may call it grappling or anything else. name doesn't matter but fact is you must be able to deal with close range both being grabbed,held or throw/sweep attempts and you must also be able to keep the opponent close. This means you must understand how to control your balance ,break the opponents balance and finish with throw/sweep.
Your opponent can always jump on you from behind. You may not use "bear hug from behind", but since you can't prevent your opponent from using it, you have to know how to deal with it.
Sometime the grappling just cannot be avoided.
Sometime the grappling just cannot be avoided.
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