Locks in TKD: whether, when and how you teach/learn them...?

[exile]

I'm curious to know what kind of exposure TKDists on this board offer, or have had as students, to locking techniques as components of their TKD training. I'm not thinking so much of whether you teach/learn a bit of Hapkido, and its locks, say, along with your TKD (a fair number of instructors have experience in both), but whether you teach, or learn, locks as part of your instruction specifically in TKD—wrist locks like the Z-lock, say, or elbow locks as part of the application of retraction 'chambering' moves. Do you teach/learn them separately, or as parts of hyung application... that sort of thing.

I'm going to post a near duplicate of this OP in the TSD forum as well, partly because I'm interested in possible differences in syllabus and teaching methodology between these two closely related KMAs...

 

[Kacey]

I don't know that I can separate out what came from where; when I was originally taught them, I wasn't told that they were Hapkido or something similar instead of being from TKD.

 

[exile]

I don't know that I can separate out what came from where; when I was originally taught them, I wasn't told that they were Hapkido or something similar instead of being from TKD.

But you did learn them, eh? How were they introduced, and do you teach them the same way?

 

[Windsinger]

I haven't learned any, yet. However, the other day I was used as a self-defense dummy for someone's blue belt test (Wheee! That was fun! ), and a couple of locks were used on me. As far as I know, they weren't specifically Hapkido. Then again, I have no idea if out Sabum Nym has any Hapkido training.

 

[terryl965]

Exile Locks have always been part of TKD and part of my training. I teach them the way I was shown and also add some other variations that I have learned over the so many years of traing. I tell all my students this is part of your journey into TKD and yes they understand that journey. I always tend to start teaching them around 7 gup once they have a nice understanding of what I and my school teach and they are more comfitable at falling and learning how and when to tapp.

 

[Kacey]

But you did learn them, eh? How were they introduced, and do you teach them the same way?

I start teaching releases from simple grabs (not locks) to white belts; the requirements work up to controls/locks come around 5th gup, along with other, related skills.

 

[igillman]

We are taught them as part of "step sparring". For each level (some of our belts have 2 levels) you have 3 "one step" sparring moves to learn. For the first few levels they are strikes but then they add in a lock or two. We are told that this is a part of TKD and self-defence.

 

[jim777]

We do a number of them, but they are all clearly introduced as hapkido or combat hapkido locks.

 

[rmclain]

Exile Locks have always been part of TKD and part of my training. I teach them the way I was shown and also add some other variations that I have learned over the so many years of traing. I tell all my students this is part of your journey into TKD and yes they understand that journey. I always tend to start teaching them around 7 gup once they have a nice understanding of what I and my school teach and they are more comfitable at falling and learning how and when to tapp.

Actually no, locks have not always been a part of TKD. "TKD" was around for several decades before you started in the early 1980's, and it did not include joint-locks.

You've been very fortunate to find a TKD instructor to study under that had the extra training in (probably) Hapkido and open-mindedness to teach these things to you. You are a bit rare among the TKD people/instructors even today. So, please keep passing it along.

I didn't get the impression that the students in your class had any falling training when I taught the short self-defense segment during my visit a few years ago. I had to re-cover this as if they were 1st lesson Hapkido students before we could continue. Please keep covering proper falling with them, for their safety, along with their normal class curriculum.

R. McLain

 

[StuartA]

Exile Locks have always been part of TKD and part of my training. I teach them the way I was shown and also add some other variations that I have learned over the so many years of traing. I tell all my students this is part of your journey into TKD and yes they understand that journey. I always tend to start teaching them around 7 gup once they have a nice understanding of what I and my school teach and they are more comfitable at falling and learning how and when to tapp.

Ditto to the above.

Remember, General Choi had a healthy exposure to Hapkido, so they possibly came from there originally, though Karate also has locks etc. Plus the exposure to Pioneer masters to judo meant throws became part of TKD. I have never learnt hapkido.. but I have always taught locks & throws (and was taught them by my instructor and he too has never done Hapkido). Whatever way they got there, they are part & parcel of TKD now.

Stuart

 

[terryl965]

Actually no, locks have not always been a part of TKD. "TKD" was around for several decades before you started in the early 1980's, and it did not include joint-locks.

You've been very fortunate to find a TKD instructor to study under that had the extra training in (probably) Hapkido and open-mindedness to teach these things to you. You are a bit rare among the TKD people/instructors even today. So, please keep passing it along.

I didn't get the impression that the students in your class had any falling training when I taught the short self-defense segment during my visit a few years ago. I had to re-cover this as if they were 1st lesson Hapkido students before we could continue. Please keep covering proper falling with them, for their safety, along with their normal class curriculum.

R. McLain

Master McLain we let you cover what you do when you visited, believe me my students know how to fall properly and they get training on it at least twice a week. I would like to say this since you bring it up, how far back are you going in TKD because Gen. Choi always had them as part of his curriculum since they named it TKD. Maybe I was fortunite with who I train with and also maybe I just had the right people.

Sometime when you talk about me anfd my training it is always in a negative way, sorry if you do not approve with what I do, but I do TKD plan and simple.

Hope you are well and have great health with all this heat.:asian:

 

[exile]

See, what I'm interested in primarily is, how early do you start them and what is the vehicle for transmitting that knowledge. Kacey, for example, mentioned wrist releases, which seems to me a very good starting place, because a rapid reversal of a wrist grab can very directly morph into a lock on the grabber's wrist. When I show students locks I tend to introduce them as parts of applications of the most basic hyungs. Kicho Il Jang's very first moves, taken as a response to a grab against the defender's clothing, is a nice place to start introducing wrist and arm locks in connection with the hikite interpretation of chambering retraction moves. But I know that some instructors who teach locks teach them as separate techs, independent of they hyungs. And apparently there's a good range in the points in the curriculum where they're introduced....

 

[YoungMan]

I learned joint locks from various instructors in our organization who had experience in this aspect of Taekwondo. However, much of what I learned as far as SD application involved joint breaks, not locks. Some of the applications came from sessions with Hae Man Park, who showed entirely new ways of looking at what appeared to be simple forms.
I was never a big fan of joint locks unless under basic self defense, for the simple reason that it prolongs my contact time with an attacker and gives him more time to counterattack. I'd rather break the joint and be done with it.

 

[StuartA]

Actually no, locks have not always been a part of TKD. "TKD" was around for several decades before you started in the early 1980's, and it did not include joint-locks.

Actually, flicking through Gen Chois 1965 manual.. there are some locks, releases and throws in that!

You've been very fortunate to find a TKD instructor to study under that had the extra training in (probably) Hapkido and open-mindedness to teach these things to you.

Hapkido in the UK when I started TKD was as rare as hens teeth... its still not that common now, however, I was taught basic locks and throws, though I agree that compared to a locking art, they are basic, but are then none-the-less. Gen Choi was not big on complicated locking techniques.. that is true and this I believe is down to his military side, hence why only quick/basic lcoking techniques form part of TKD training.

Like Terry, my students are well versed in falling and throwing.. though they do not know as many throws as a Judo BB, they can certainly perform many of the basic throws (Body drop, hip throw, reaps, sweeping throws, shoulder throws etc.) to a decent standard.


Stuart

 

[Khengi]

To my knowledge, Throws/locks aren't in our curriculum. Aside from the Hapikido that we learn (which we use mostly for self defense. Someone grabs you = grab meaty part of hard, hit point on wrist that causes excruciating pain, pull down to break wrist, punch in the nose).

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

When I took taekwondo in the eighties, we were taught locks, sweeps and take downs, as well as falling.

When I came back to taekwondo, this was incorporated into the class on Tuesday evenings and Saturday mornings for those interested. Then Master Kim made hapkido a separate class, but made Tuesdays and Thursdays a combo class. Now, we have a full hapkido schedule and a full taekwondo schedule and will do the locks, throws and takedowns with some of the upper belt classes.

We do not learn them as part of hyung application, but specifically as SD.

Daniel

 

[bluekey88]

I come to TKD from an Aikido background and incorporate a lot of wristlocks, throws and takedowns in my freestyle SD.

However, we introduce rudimentary locking/throwing techniques in our hosinsul techs and one-step punch sparring. This starts at white belt and is eexpanded on through every belt (with blackbelts repsonsible for being able to perform 10 prescribed hosinsul techs that have wrist locks and throws in most of them, 10 punch sparring techs with some basic throws and locks, 3 knife defense with wrist locks)

In the black belt curriculum, more advanced techniqes are taught and drilled.

Peace,
Erik

 

[howard]

When I show students locks I tend to introduce them as parts of applications of the most basic hyungs. Kicho Il Jang's very first moves, taken as a response to a grab against the defender's clothing, is a nice place to start introducing wrist and arm locks in connection with the hikite interpretation of chambering retraction moves.

Hi exile,

Would you mind elaborating a bit on this part of your post?

In your reference to the first moves of the Ki Cho hyung, do you mean the downward block? I could see that representing a defense against a garment grab on the shoulder (the downward movement of the blocking arm could be peeling off the grab and moving into an arm bar)...

Also, in hikite, could you explain what joint is being locked? Is it the wrist or the elbow?

Just for some context, I trained in Ji Do Kwan for a few years quite some time ago before switching over to Hapkido. I never learned a single joint lock in Ji Do Kwan.

Nice topic for discussion.

 

[IcemanSK]

I teach joint locks to my students. I tell them it is more Hapkido than TKD, because that's what I was taught.

 

[exile]

Hi exile,

Would you mind elaborating a bit on this part of your post?

In your reference to the first moves of the Ki Cho hyung, do you mean the downward block? I could see that representing a defense against a garment grab on the shoulder (the downward movement of the blocking arm could be peeling off the grab and moving into an arm bar)...

Also, in hikite, could you explain what joint is being locked? Is it the wrist or the elbow?

Howard—it works like this:in response to a grab to your arm or the front of your shirt, cover the grabbing hand (call it H1) and rotate your body 90º while pulling H1 towards you, thrusting your other forearm above the attacker's extended elbow (E1), moving your bodyweight into the pin thus on E1, forcing the attacker's upper body down, while twisting the H1 wrist counterclockwise. At this point, you're outside the attacker, you have leverage on both E1 and H1, your attacker's head is in close and low, and you can release the pin on E1 to deliver a very hard spearing elbow strike to the attacker's face followed by a hammer fist to his throat. The 'retraction chamber' is the wrist grab-into-lock plus the pulling extension (enforced by the 90º rotation). The down block comprises (i) the elbow pin on the attacker's arm, forcing his upper body down, (ii) an elbow strike on the way up to establish the 'chamber' of the down block, (iii) a spearing elbow to the face strike as the 'blocking' arm descends, and then (iv) the 'block' itself, which is a hammerfist to the attacker's throat, temple, collarbone or any other high value breakable target. The critical point is that the initial wrist grip and twist forces compliance with the pulling extension of the attacker's grabbing arm; the elbow pin (the actual meaning of the first part of the block's chambering phase), with strong projection of weight into the pin via the 'front stance' movement, drives his upper body down, and all the rest follows. I've taught this application of the first two moves of Kicho Il Jang (a straight importation of Shotokan's Taikyoku Shodan proto-kata) to nearly complete beginners and they get the wrist twist/arm pull easily (way more easily than they learn a proper chamber for a roundhouse kick, but that's another thread topic).

Just for some context, I trained in Ji Do Kwan for a few years quite some time ago before switching over to Hapkido. I never learned a single joint lock in Ji Do Kwan.

Nice topic for discussion.

I interpret pretty much every hikite retraction movement in TKD forms as as a pulling/controlling move, typically implemented via a lock. It seems almost formulaic... but there's plenty of evidence now available that grabs to the arm or clothing are among the most common violence-initiations in street attacks and similar assaults. And once the student recognizes that such grabs represent a gift (in disguise, of course!) from the attacker, to be capitalized on by use of pinning and locking techniques, it not only opens up a world of SD possibilities that the student hadn't imagined, but changes the grab itself from something maybe parylizingly scary to a much appreciated opportunity to terminate the attack quickly and decisively).