Liu He Ba Fa

[Xue Sheng]

There is a 4th Chinese internal martial art that I tend to forget about because I know little about it beyond the following;

Liu He Ba Fa – Literally, “six combinations eight methods”. One of the Chinese internal martial arts, its techniques are combined from Taijiquan, Xingyquan and Baguazhang. It is reported that this internal martial art was created by Chen Bo during the Song Dynasty (960-1279)
[From Shaolin White Crane by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming]

I am wondering if there are any practitioners of this style out there that can shed a little more light on the subject.

Another thing I am wondering about is the creator of Liu He Ba Fa the same as the historically excepted creator of Taijiquan - Chang, Sen-Feng (960-1127), also from the Song Dynasty (960-1279). I have seen references to Chang Sen-Feng being called Chen Bo in more places than just the Jet Li movie. But this name similarity can by no means be considered solid proof of this, I am certain there was more than one person called Chen Bo during the Song Dynasty.

Mandarin – Liu He Ba Fa
Cantonese - Lok Hop Ba Fa

http://www.answers.com/Liu%20He%20Ba%20Fa

 

[Flying Crane]

There is a 4th Chinese internal martial art that I tend to forget about because I know little about it beyond the following;

Liu He Ba Fa – Literally, “six combinations eight methods”. One of the Chinese internal martial arts, its techniques are combined from Taijiquan, Xingyquan and Baguazhang. It is reported that this internal martial art was created by Chen Bo during the Song Dynasty (960-1279)
[From Shaolin White Crane by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming]

I am wondering if there are any practitioners of this style out there that can shed a little more light on the subject.

Another thing I am wondering about is the creator of Liu He Ba Fa the same as the historically excepted creator of Taijiquan - Chang, Sen-Feng (960-1127), also from the Song Dynasty (960-1279). I have seen references to Chang Sen-Feng being called Chen Bo in more places than just the Jet Li movie. But this name similarity can by no means be considered solid proof of this, I am certain there was more than one person called Chen Bo during the Song Dynasty.

Mandarin – Liu He Ba Fa
Cantonese - Lok Hop Ba Fa

http://www.answers.com/Liu%20He%20Ba%20Fa

I had never heard of this, or at least not in the context of it being a fourth internal art, but something has caught my eye. The Cantonese Lok Hop Ba Fa. My sifu has taught me a set called Lok Hop Kuen, and he says he knows a Broadsword and a Spear set from the same system, but that is all he knows of this. I believe he learned it from Sifu Wong, Jack Man of the Ching Wu association in San Francisco. Now that I think about it, I think I remember him referring to it as more "internal", at least more so than most people realize. Perhaps it is from the system you are referring to. I shall have to ask him about it.

Stylistically, it has many similarities to Tibetan White Crane technique (which is why he taught it to me since I am most interested in this art), but the Tibetan crane is entirely different from the Fujian crane. Technique is entirely different, different history, totally separate arts.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I had never heard of this, or at least not in the context of it being a fourth internal art, but something has caught my eye. The Cantonese Lok Hop Ba Fa. My sifu has taught me a set called Lok Hop Kuen, and he says he knows a Broadsword and a Spear set from the same system, but that is all he knows of this. I believe he learned it from Sifu Wong, Jack Man of the Ching Wu association in San Francisco. Now that I think about it, I think I remember him referring to it as more "internal", at least more so than most people realize. Perhaps it is from the system you are referring to. I shall have to ask him about it.

Stylistically, it has many similarities to Tibetan White Crane technique (which is why he taught it to me since I am most interested in this art), but the Tibetan crane is entirely different from the Fujian crane. Technique is entirely different, different history, totally separate arts.

I would be interested to hear what your Sifu says about it. I would like to find out more about Liu He Ba Fa. I heard about it years ago, but I never researched it, until now.

Also as a bit off topic, I was just reading a little about Tibetan white crane and a Shaolin type of White crane last night and they seemed a bit different. I may have this entirely wrong, but it appeared that the Tibetan version has a bit of a higher stance. Is the Tibetan version as big on external Qi training as the Shaolin version appears to be? I will have to look into Fujian white crane. However the differences do not surprise me, look at Yang style tai chi as compared to Chen and you will see big differences.

 

[Flying Crane]

I usually meet with my sifu on Saturday mornings, but was unable to attend today due to other personal obligations (we are babysitting my in-law's dog while they are out of town, and he is old and getting sick and we were afraid he was taking a turn for the worse so we felt the need to stay with him. Poor little guy, I'm afraid he is living on borrowed time right now.) So I don't expect to see him again until next week. Send me a PM on Friday and remind me to ask him about it.

As to Tibetan vs. Southern Shaolin (Fujian) White Crane, they are established as completely separate and not from the same root at all. No similarity with technique. Tibetan is the ultimate longfist style, with fairly high and mobile stances. Stylistically it is similar to Choy Lay Fut. We do use the lower stances, but they are more transitory. Our focus is either hit and run, or blitzkreig and overwhelm the opponent. Basically, if we decide we have to fight you, then we charge in throwing everything we have as fast as we can and from every angle and with full power until you go down. You may block the first couple shots, but we switch and never stop until we hit you. It's a bit hard to spar that way.

The art was known as "Lion's Roar" in Tibet, when it was supposedly developed by the Lamas. Once it was brought into Southern China it was known as Lama Style, then later Hop Gar (hero's style, named after a famous guy who is now something of a folk hero), and later (1950s, I believe) splintered into the sister style of White Crane. The art itself supposedly was developed when a Lama witnessed a fight between a Crane and a "mountain ape" (there is a species of macaque that lives in some areas of Tibet, so it is possible). Lama, Hop Gar, and White Crane all exist as sister arts and are very similar but with some differences as they went their own way.

Fujian Crane is something that I have only seen a few video clips of. It seemed to me somewhat similar to Wing Chun and Southern Mantis. Wish I knew more about it.

The art does have qi development, what I have learned of it is what I refer to as "hard qi" (see my post in the Internal-External thread). There is also a lengthy Internal form in the system, but I have not learned it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sorry to hear about the pup.

If I remember I will PM you next Friday, if I remember, and lately with everything going on (my youngest is learning to walk and with the China trip pending) I do not remember much. However I am very interested in finding out if that has anything to do with Liu He Ba Fa.

What I read about Tibetan White crane described the same sort of fighting style. I have never seen it in action and I just read about it yesterday, and it sounded impressive. I was going through some old books and found a short description.

The Shaolin type White Crane I was reading about is the stuff Yang Jwing-ming does.

I will have to see what I can find about the Fujian style.

 

[Flying Crane]

The Shaolin type White Crane I was reading about is the stuff Yang Jwing-ming does.

I will have to see what I can find about the Fujian style.

They are the same.

 

[Xue Sheng]

They are the same.

Ahh, then my observation about them is incorrect; I will have to read them more closely.

Of course the book I have that talks about "Tibetan white crane" only dedicated 3 pages to it and Dr Yang's is an entire book about it and he is calling it "Shaolin White Crane".

There was one stance, that the shorter book discussed, that I did not see in Dr Yang's and it may be that I missed it in one or one was incorrect. It was a very high stance with arms stretched above the head in Cranes Beak (sorry a Tai Chi Term) apparently ready to strike. The philosophy behind both seemed the same the attitude seemed the same but the stances looked different. It could also be the teacher. Sorry about the error.

There is a lot of external Qi work in his book, and it doesn't look easy. There is also a section on internal too.

It appears that I need to find out more about Fujian White Crane to make a better comparison. As well as Liu He Ba Fa (Lok Hop Ba Fa) that I was originally looking for.

Hey, I may be in error, but at least my wife has no reason to think I'm crazy this time.

 

[Flying Crane]

Ahh, then my observation about them is incorrect; I will have to read them more closely.

Of course the book I have that talks about "Tibetan white crane" only dedicated 3 pages to it and Dr Yang's is an entire book about it and he is calling it "Shaolin White Crane".

There was one stance, that the shorter book discussed, that I did not see in Dr Yang's and it may be that I missed it in one or one was incorrect. It was a very high stance with arms stretched above the head in Cranes Beak (sorry a Tai Chi Term) apparently ready to strike. The philosophy behind both seemed the same the attitude seemed the same but the stances looked different. It could also be the teacher. Sorry about the error.

There is a lot of external Qi work in his book, and it doesn't look easy. There is also a section on internal too.

It appears that I need to find out more about Fujian White Crane to make a better comparison. As well as Liu He Ba Fa (Lok Hop Ba Fa) that I was originally looking for.

Hey, I may be in error, but at least my wife has no reason to think I'm crazy this time.

Yes, I have Dr. Yang's book on Shaolin (Fujian) White Crane and am familiar with it to some extent but have not read it thoroughly. It does treat extensively with the qi gong aspects of that art.

The other book you refer to could be Jane Hallander's? I have read that and yes, that one is about Tibetan Crane. I remember the picture you refer to, it is a posture found in one (at least of what I know) of our forms tho I have to confess I am not entirely clear on just what the use is. I think there are other pictures that illustrate a straight punch, with the other arm extended behind. This illustrates our full body pivot to generate extra torque for power in our punches. We use an exaggerated reverse swing with the other arm to help drive the striking hand forward.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yes, I have Dr. Yang's book on Shaolin (Fujian) White Crane and am familiar with it to some extent but have not read it thoroughly. It does treat extensively with the qi gong aspects of that art.

The other book you refer to could be Jane Hallander's? I have read that and yes, that one is about Tibetan Crane. I remember the picture you refer to, it is a posture found in one (at least of what I know) of our forms tho I have to confess I am not entirely clear on just what the use is. I think there are other pictures that illustrate a straight punch, with the other arm extended behind. This illustrates our full body pivot to generate extra torque for power in our punches. We use an exaggerated reverse swing with the other arm to help drive the striking hand forward.

OK so I was right originally but wrong the second time, I got to pay more attention. Dr Yang's is Fujian which IS different from Tibetan.

ok, I feel slightly less silly…..I think…..

The "full body pivot" seems similar to something that I learned in my brief stint with Shaolin Long fist, if it is, it is a very powerful attack.

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

There is an excellent book by Khan Fox "The Kung Fu of Six Combinations and Eight Methods (Liu Ho Pa Fa) published privately in 1995 which gives an excellent description of Liu Ho Pa Fa. I don't know how difficult it is to get now, but I bought it several years ago when I learned the form (sadly not kept up). That was in an earlier life when I didn't know any better and was in the "collecting forms" stage!!! There are also a series of teaching videos by Paul Dillon produced by Great Achievement Enterprises Santa Rosa CA.

Liu Ho PA Fa is a beautiful form and as you suggest, a synthesis of Taiji, Bagua and Xing-Yi.

Hope this helps

Best wishes

 

[Flying Crane]

The "full body pivot" seems similar to something that I learned in my brief stint with Shaolin Long fist, if it is, it is a very powerful attack.

I think so and I imagine it is found in many systems, but in Tibetan Crane I think we take the pivot to the extreme.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

There is an excellent book by Khan Fox "The Kung Fu of Six Combinations and Eight Methods (Liu Ho Pa Fa) published privately in 1995 which gives an excellent description of Liu Ho Pa Fa. I don't know how difficult it is to get now, but I bought it several years ago when I learned the form (sadly not kept up). That was in an earlier life when I didn't know any better and was in the "collecting forms" stage!!! There are also a series of teaching videos by Paul Dillon produced by Great Achievement Enterprises Santa Rosa CA.

Liu Ho PA Fa is a beautiful form and as you suggest, a synthesis of Taiji, Bagua and Xing-Yi.

Hope this helps

Best wishes

Thank You I will look for the book.

I am basically curious to know more about it. I too went through a collecting forms stage way back when, but Liu Ho Pa Fa was not one of them. And although I no longer collect forms I do internal CMA and I know little about Liu Ho Pa Fa .

Thanks.

 

[TaiChiTJ]

Master Wai Lun Choi is retired now. His videos are still available.

http://www.liuhopafa.com/





Also, on Mike Patterson's Hsing I site, he teaches the Liu Ho Pa Fa form on video and you can see the first few moves of it, as well as Mike's self defense applications for those moves.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Master Wai Lun Choi is retired now. His videos are still available.

http://www.liuhopafa.com/





Also, on Mike Patterson's Hsing I site, he teaches the Liu Ho Pa Fa form on video and you can see the first few moves of it, as well as Mike's self defense applications for those moves.

Thanks I will check it out

 

[Gaoguy]

LHBF cannot be Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua. Bagua was developed around the turn of the century. Khan Foxx? Hmmm.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Liu He Ba Fa contains form and principle elements from the arts of Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan

Bagua - Dong Haichuan in the early 19th century

I have found no date of Liu He Ba Fa I have only found a referrence to

Liu He Ba Fa proponents say that it contains form and principle elements from the arts of Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan. Each of these art forms are believed by some schools to share principles extending back to various precursor disciplines, Tao Yin, for one example.

I can find no date to the origin of Liu He Ba Fa so if you have one I would appriciate the info. I currently have found nothing that says it came before Bagua.

 

[Xue Sheng]

LHBF cannot be Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua. Bagua was developed around the turn of the century. Khan Foxx? Hmmm.

Liu He Ba Fa contains form and principle elements from the arts of Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan
Bagua - Dong Haichuan in the early 19th century

I have found no date of origin for Liu He Ba Fa I have only found a reference to

Liu He Ba Fa proponents say that it contains form and principle elements from the arts of Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan. Each of these art forms are believed by some schools to share principles extending back to various precursor disciplines, Tao Yin, for one example.

I can find no date to the origin of Liu He Ba Fa so if you have one I would appreciate the info. I currently have found nothing that says it came before Bagua.

And I have found that the book by Khan Foxx appears to be out of print.

 

[Gaoguy]

No more info than you. Doesn't look like baguazhang to me. You can probably order Foxx's book from his site. Something like watersprite.

 

[CrushingFist]

Since I am tall and young, I was always told to practice Long Fist, White Crane style Kung Fu. going back to topic

I am too learning about Liu he ba fa. It sounds pretty good according answers.com , but can't let everything sound good to me

 

[Flying Crane]

Since I am tall and young, I was always told to practice Long Fist, White Crane style Kung Fu. going back to topic

I am too learning about Liu he ba fa. It sounds pretty good according answers.com , but can't let everything sound good to me

I know of a school in New York that teaches Tibetan White Crane, but they go under the name Lama Pai. I have never met the instructors so I can't vouch for them, but I know they are there. I believe one instructor's name is David Ross, can't remember the others. I know they have a website, you'll probably find it if you poke around a bit.