Limits on sharing information

[Koinu]

In short the Dojo and and good instructor/s is the place for teaching and to have any questions answered , ( Oximoron as all questions I have ever asked my instructors just lead to more questions, even when provided with the answer)
I don't feel the internet is any place to provide answers to any but the most basic type questions for several reasons.
You need to feel the (insert) Tec, waza, kata, henka) and how it relates to sanshin/Kihon too have any hope of understanding it.
Most of the people asking the questions are really trying to get to far ahead of themselves and would be better served just trying to gain the feeling from the lessons of the day as presented by their instructor/s,and how they relate back to Sanshin/Kihon.
Then you get into the area of who is asking the questions and what will they do with the info who else may read it.
Etc Etc Etc

 

[DWeidman]

I feel the problem with the internet is that it is very difficult to vet who is putting the information on the forums in the first place. Although some of the more expererienced members may be able to tell what is true or fraudulent technique there are others that do not. I have to agree with Don Roley here. Kata, technique etc should not be published on the internet.

Only recently i met an ex student of mine who had decided to go his own way. He had not reached black belt but was teaching. He then showed me what he was teaching. And it was pages of kata from the nine schools printed from the internet and without mentioning no names much of the stuff was from very dubious sites.

Gary Arthur
(Quest UK, Northants Quest Centre)

And???

And what happened when you met him - is his more successful? Did you lose sleep that night? Did he thrash you within an inch of your life?

If Hatsumi is willing to make training videos and sell them (doing a much better job of "teaching" than these internet boards) why are you worried about a dork who has "kata pages" from "dubious sites"?

Hell - half the instuctors ***in*** the Bujinkan currently have crappy kata...

Do you think that highly of your coveted information?

-Daniel Weidman

 

[Mountain Kusa]

I have been watching this thread with interest. How ever I dont believe that someone who is not training with some one will not be able to understand it anyway. For example the Konigun thing keeps coming up here and at other sites. Without getting into a big disortation about that, the frauds are generally easy to spot. Even from Web pages it is easy to spot bad Kamae. I think the best way to squash these people is to get the good information to the people that are truly seeking what it means to be training in Budo Taijutsu. I myself train with many instructors that all know each other, train with each other, go to seminars with each other and help each others students; be it with ranking, help with kata, sanshin Kihon etc. We lovingly call it the collective.

I myself have never been a kata collector, everything I have was given to me freely without me ever asking from reputable people. If I need help with something, or am not understanding it, I have many people to call, or ask help from, and we make it that way. We then take this thing work on it, make henka from many directions, the Kihon, sanshin, gyakku, musho, oase, otoshi, ori, etc.

I have come to realize from Don that the kata I have may be and probably are incomplete. But it is all I have, but I believe that If I train long enough, It will eventually come to me. If it dosnt, I have plenty to skin. I would rather be excellent at a few things and be able to use them, then be mediocre at many and not.

So I believe that helping those that are serious students is a good thing, if we help them, then their students get better, attain their yudansha levels, spread out across the land, and open new training groups. Then we will eventually choke out the frauds. All of our instructors under the collective travel around, and all the other instructors try to attend and bring their students, then we have big seminars. Instead of ten in the beginning showing up, they are now getting up in the 40-60-100 range. Everybody learns and profits.

Let the fakes do what the fakes are going to do, if there is anything of value people will try to copy it and profit from it. Just look at money. Despite all the technology, somebody all ways manages to make a counterfeit. They look good, but are worth nothing. Eventually with a little tattletale pen, the truth will come out. Time will tell. Good thread

 

[Henso]

Gentlemen,

This is a an excellent post, and recently, almost every board I have visited seems to be recycling the same tired old posts, so a courageous one is refreshing. As concerns the matter of posting too much on the web, and thus accidently assisting frauds by providing them with information that they otherwise would not have had, the cat is already out of the bag.

Long ago, Hatsumi Sensei decided to share this art with the world, and even secrets eminating from the Togakure Ryu, itself, are avaialable for all to see. Visit Richard Van Donk's site and you can buy videos that show extensive portions of 6 of the ryuha's kata. Flip through Sensei's last book, The Way of The Ninja, and you'll see some of the most coveted kata of the Bujinkan, those of the Santo Tonko Gata, plainly laid out for all to see. A different strategy to protect the innocent from frauds is required other than attempting to screen information that is already widely available.

In say all of this as a current member of the Bujinkan, who became such after discovering the art through a fraud who had attended SKH seminars, only to then declare himself soke of the Koga Ryu, via the Fujita Seiko line. I then utilized available information to determine that the fraud in question, David J. D'Antonio, could not be what he claimed he was. My ability to do so was based upon the available information, and not upon what information was withheld by legitimate practitioners. Indeed, the refusal of many to share information about the legitimate practices of the BBT, only serves to sheild the frauds from unfavorable exposure that would result from comparisons of the real thing to the egotistical parody thereof.

My personal conclusion is that maximum exposure serves to separate the sublime from the contrived, and that more open information will force the frauds to acheive a threshold of skill and knowledge that they don't posses the dedication to attain. This will then lead to the weeding out of the true from the false, mirroring the actions of Hatsumi Sensei, as demonstrated in his books, videos, and seminars, over the last twenty five years.

I urge everyone to share as much information as possible, as wideley as possible, in an attempt to combat the depraved egotist that thrive in the shadows of this art's reputation. Below are a few small contributions to this effort that I have either authored or collaborated in, there are more in progress that I cannot currently mention at the time.

http://daviddantonio.tripod.com/ (Authored)

http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com (Authored)

I have recently recvd three Menkyo Kaiden issued by Fujita between 1943-1948, and an item that appears in one of his books that I will be making public as part of a larger publication.

http://www.specsec.org/CDWall.html (Collaborated)

 

[Shogun]

A different strategy to protect the innocent from frauds is required other than attempting to screen information that is already widely available.

Interesting, yet very valid approach. If only the "real" guys know whats real, then its easier for frauds to do what they do. If the info is widely available, anyone can see the real stuff, granted they understand that everything spawns from Bujinkan.

 

[Tengu6]

Don, this is a very valid concern IMO, however, take a look at the most successful frauds.......they have no legitemate info whatsover, only black Gi's with hoods........even if you post true history, those who are frauds would find it takes too much effort to learn and they have already fooled thoudands with BS.......why invest time in the real stuff?

Seriously, look at Rick Tew and his Tew Ryu Ninjutsu, he runs a very successful business on completely erroneous info.

As you may know I publish an online magazine with the intent of sharing different persectives from respected Buyu internationally. Even for students who make it to Japan, Soke can teach something and it can be interpreted differently even by Judan and above. IMO, these differing persectives can be of great value.

Certain things definately should only be transmitted in person, but there is a way to be helpful without saying too much. Once people have trained in Japan or with those who do, certain things you say will make sense, but not to outsiders. Even Sokes video do not reveal everything, if you do not have an instructor you may not see the things Soke left out on purpose.
So, I guess what i am trying to say is that frauds dont need factual info to be successful. If you post something historical it will require more on my end than just simply reading it to make use of it, and IMO, frauds wont invest that kind of effort.

Just my perspective,
Markk Bush

 

[Don Roley]

I don't know. I think I have done the best service not be introducing new information, but rather when I point people in the direction of existing sources that contradict what the fruads are putting out.

But there is also the matter of should we be putting out all this information instead of forcing people to get real instructors with valid, current links to Japan?

Much of what American Bujinkan members do is wrong, just wrong. Dan touched on this. It is not just the written kata that are mistaken, the very way they are used and the skills that they are built on are just missing from a good part of the American (and presumably other countires) version of Bujinkan. San shin, etc- most people really don't know much of what they are doing I think. Everyone thinks they are doing the right thing and talk about basics- but a lot of them do things I have been corrected on here in Japan. I can show you kenjutsu videos for sale by people like Steven Hayes who just do not seem to even know how to cut with one.

They did not learn the way the Japanese shihan did. They learned from seminars, from students who had only seen the information for a short while before trying to teach it and even things like videos and the internet.

But there are people like Luke Molitor who teach sword and do it right. He lived in Japan and got a good relationship with Someya- the guy to know if you want to know swordsmanship Bujinkan style. He got led through the basics, had them corrected over time when needed and still comes back to get his skills corrected and expanded.

He is out there right now giving classes in how to use a sword and he seems to be revolutionizing Bujinkan kenjutsu in America almost single handidly.

What does this have to do with what I am talking about? Well, despite all the stuff availible on sword in the Bujinkan over the years, the quality is still pretty low. But once a person like Luke sails through, the source can be used correctly. Before that, they mearly seem to serve as a means of fooling people into thinking they are learning more than they do.

So by giving out too much information instead of helping people to get here to Japan, are we perhaps just helping them to fool themselves and put off the lessons from a real instructor that they need?

 

[Tengu6]

I don't know. I think I have done the best service not be introducing new information, but rather when I point people in the direction of existing sources that contradict what the fruads are putting out.

But there is also the matter of should we be putting out all this information instead of forcing people to get real instructors with valid, current links to Japan?

Much of what American Bujinkan members do is wrong, just wrong. Dan touched on this. It is not just the written kata that are mistaken, the very way they are used and the skills that they are built on are just missing from a good part of the American (and presumably other countires) version of Bujinkan. San shin, etc- most people really don't know much of what they are doing I think. Everyone thinks they are doing the right thing and talk about basics- but a lot of them do things I have been corrected on here in Japan. I can show you kenjutsu videos for sale by people like Steven Hayes who just do not seem to even know how to cut with one.

They did not learn the way the Japanese shihan did. They learned from seminars, from students who had only seen the information for a short while before trying to teach it and even things like videos and the internet.

But there are people like Luke Molitor who teach sword and do it right. He lived in Japan and got a good relationship with Someya- the guy to know if you want to know swordsmanship Bujinkan style. He got led through the basics, had them corrected over time when needed and still comes back to get his skills corrected and expanded.

He is out there right now giving classes in how to use a sword and he seems to be revolutionizing Bujinkan kenjutsu in America almost single handidly.

What does this have to do with what I am talking about? Well, despite all the stuff availible on sword in the Bujinkan over the years, the quality is still pretty low. But once a person like Luke sails through, the source can be used correctly. Before that, they mearly seem to serve as a means of fooling people into thinking they are learning more than they do.

So by giving out too much information instead of helping people to get here to Japan, are we perhaps just helping them to fool themselves and put off the lessons from a real instructor that they need?

Possibly yes, on the other side some sincerely want to get to Japan but just can not make that a reality....or, they can only afford it maybe once and are saving for that one time trip. However, in the meantime these people are still doing thier thing in the USA (or other countries) so without guidence from those who have the exposure such as yourself, they may be turning into frauds within our own organization unknowingly.

As you have stated, those who train in Japan do not owe anything to those who dont. But helping goes a long way toward the betterment of those who study this art.

BTW, I just attended a seminar with Luke Molitor and you are not kidding, what a wealth of knowledge that man is, and if you pay attention there are all kinds of nuances under the surface that he is showing.

Markk Bush

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

*thread hijack*

Don, could you check your inbox please?

*/end thread hijack*

 

[Floating Egg]

I'm not so sure that encouraging people to go to Japan is the answer.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I am.

Not for a mere two weeks though.

 

[Henso]

I would never discouarge the idea of going to Japan, however, going for more than two weeks simply not in the cards for most people, as they are not independently wealthy. There has to be a more practical way to enlighten and encourage the innumerable seekers who have seen the magic of BBT, just as the fundamental ideas of the martial arts have journeyed from India to China to Japan, etc.


It is via the free exchange of ideas that cultures and arts have flourished throughout human history, and the martial arts are no different. During the course of this exchange, the martial arts (BBT) will evolve. Yes, often for the worse, but, somewhere along the path of it's travel outside of Japan, it will encounter someone who will impact it profoundly, and for the better(Think of Hatsumi openly teaching these arts to the Gaigin, as an example). This is the way of ideas, concepts and arts, and BBT is no different than any other idea/concept.

Take one look at Hatsumi Sensei, nobody can deny that he is a visionary of the first order. Is it because he is a purist, rigidly adhering to the letter of Japan's martial traditions? No! It is because he had the courage/vision to depart, both in thought and practice from the tradition of holding these among a small, closed group of individuals, and thus never having them extend beyond the confines of this small group, let alone Japan.

We must take page out of the book of the book of the man who made it possible for us all to discuss, let alone practice this art, spreading it far and wide, so that it can both effect and be effected by those who come in contact with it.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

It is via the free exchange of ideas that cultures and arts have flourished throughout human history, and the martial arts are no different. During the course of this exchange, the martial arts (BBT) will evolve. Yes, often for the worse, but, somewhere along the path of it's travel outside of Japan, it will encounter someone who will impact it profoundly, and for the better(Think of Hatsumi openly teaching these arts to the Gaigin, as an example).

Sounds like you are suggesting that us westerners can teach Hatsumi sensei how to do his job.

This is the way of ideas, concepts and arts, and BBT is no different than any other idea/concept.

Uhm, yes it is.

Take one look at Hatsumi Sensei, nobody can deny that he is a visionary of the first order. Is it because he is a purist, rigidly adhering to the letter of Japan's martial traditions? No! It is because he had the courage/vision to depart, both in thought and practice from the tradition of holding these among a small, closed group of individuals, and thus never having them extend beyond the confines of this small group, let alone Japan.

Before that "departure", he was also firmly rooted in kihon far beyond what most people in the Bujinkan are today...

 

[White]

if we are talking about budo, then one knows that you have to go through the 3 diffrent levels, shu, ha and ree. you can talk about the same thing with all 3 of these students of diffrent levels, and you will get 3 diffrent answers.

as for secrets there are none in budo. do is tao in mandarin and tao is nature. you could translate budo as human responses to nature.
i can tell you anything i like about budo, but unless you experience the tao you will still be as you were before.

so i woulden worry about giving away any secrets.

 

[Don Roley]

I would never discouarge the idea of going to Japan, however, going for more than two weeks simply not in the cards for most people, as they are not independently wealthy.

Which is why I say to either train in Japan and/or train under someone who does!!!! I already mentioned Luke "Tamayoke" Molitor as an example. Hatsumi has said basically the same thing. Train under people who are still training under him.

I think it is important in a lot of ways.

For one, there was a heck of a lot of mistakes made in the early transmision of the art to America. We are still paying the price overall. Everyone can point to people they know who have bad basics. Guys..... are you so sure your own basics are up to snuff? I thought I knew the basics when I got here and had my nose rubbed in it after I had proven myself a bit. I am still trying to get rid of bad habits built up from years of doing things my old teacher's way instead of what the guys in Japan are teaching.

We need to stop trying to add on new information and start looking at the very, very basics to try to get them down. That really will not happen in a seminar- and especially not from the internet.

I also think the tie to Japan is important in what it says about the person. Everyone can get better. Who do you get better from? If you claim to teach Hatsumi's art, somewhere in the mix there has to be a current link to Hatsumi. Otherwise you are saying you know more than he about his art. There has to be some way of someone looking at what you do and making corrections. Just piling on more kata is probably pretty worthless if you don't get that type of feedback on even the most basic stuff. That ain't going to happen over the internet.

But there are folks who don't train much with anyone. What the heck are they thinking? But some of them are big on the internet and have large piles of videos.

Oh, and I will be the first to admit that I have seen people show up in Japan merely looking to vailidate what they do and impress their students with their pictures and next rank. Hatsumi gives them what they want and doesn't help them much. They go away and the serious students get to go to smaller, more hands on, classes.

But if someone is not even willing to train with others or go to Japan, how are they going to get better? They are not. But with the amount of stuff out there they can fool themselves and others by thinking that by expanding the size of their notebooks, they expand their skill.

This is a wide ranging topic and one that I frequently think about. We have to do our best to get better. If we can't get to Hatsumi, we need to get to someone better than us in his art. We need to cut down to what we know, instead of what we can get off the internet and videos. In short, we need to be good at a few things instead of lousy at a lot.

 

[Floating Egg]

For the record, I agree with much of what Don has said, but I'm going to play devil's advocate in the hope of gaining some clarity. I’m going to try and phrase my questions from the perspective of what someone outside of the Bujinkan might think. I have an investment in the Bujinkan, so I’ll probably fail miserably, but I think it’s worth a try.

Which is why I say to either train in Japan and/or train under someone who does!!!! I already mentioned Luke "Tamayoke" Molitor as an example. Hatsumi has said basically the same thing. Train under people who are still training under him.

How strict should one be with your suggestion? What about these people that train in Japan and return to their homeland to teach? They are a minority within the organization and they certainly don't reside in all territories. For some people it is as difficult to move to another state or province for training as it is to move to another country.

For those of us that are willing to move to train with someone that has a direct and active connection to Japan, does this completely eliminate controversy? What about practitioners that actively go to Japan and train regularly, but are viewed with some level of skepticism by other practitioners?

For one, there was a heck of a lot of mistakes made in the early transmision of the art to America. We are still paying the price overall. Everyone can point to people they know who have bad basics. Guys..... are you so sure your own basics are up to snuff? I thought I knew the basics when I got here and had my nose rubbed in it after I had proven myself a bit. I am still trying to get rid of bad habits built up from years of doing things my old teacher's way instead of what the guys in Japan are teaching.

Is it also possible that what Hatsumi Sensei is teaching is riddled with mistakes if looked at from a certain perspective? We are a much different people, the Japanese included, than the founders of our art. None of this was developed for personal growth, fitness, or fun. It was originally intended for hurting people. We dress it up as a survival art, but if you look closely at what we do, much of it is for causing pain, injury, and death. And yet we practice all of this with a completely different mindset then that of Ancient Japan. Though we may train for survival, we certainly don't need it to survive. How would one of the founders of the various Ryu view our interpretation? Is it not a corruption of a sort?

Has the evolution of the art been entirely for the better? Judging by the videos, Takamatsu Sensei moves differently than Hatsumi Sensei. Is it possible that Hatsumi Sensei has forgotten something or that his interpretation of something is different than that of his teacher?

We need to stop trying to add on new information and start looking at the very, very basics to try to get them down. That really will not happen in a seminar- and especially not from the internet.

Who's basics exactly? Even for those that train in Japan regularly, there seems to be a divergence on this point.

I also think the tie to Japan is important in what it says about the person. Everyone can get better. Who do you get better from? If you claim to teach Hatsumi's art, somewhere in the mix there has to be a current link to Hatsumi. Otherwise you are saying you know more than he about his art. There has to be some way of someone looking at what you do and making corrections. Just piling on more kata is probably pretty worthless if you don't get that type of feedback on even the most basic stuff. That ain't going to happen over the internet.

Are you sure it's happening outside of the internet? There have so far been a number of divergences from the Bujinkan and Hatsumi Sensei by some high level practitioners. Not all of them have left the Bujinkan itself. Currently, as viewed by the community, and with a significant level of caution, there are members ranked as Judan and above that seem to share a philosophy and approach to the Bujinkan that is radically different than the majority's interpretation of Hatsumi sensei's teachings. Despite regular training with Hatsumi, these practitioners are either ignored or indirectly accepted. Sometimes they're scolded, but it is a fleeting thing, and when they return to their homeland they often take on the role that Hatsumi should play.

But there are folks who don't train much with anyone. What the heck are they thinking? But some of them are big on the internet and have large piles of videos.

Aren't there exceptions to the rule? I know of a few practitioners that no longer have a valid link to Japan. Some have produced students solidly grounded in the "basics" and some of these students have gone to Japan with a foundation that is sometimes viewed as greater than that of those that visit Japan once or twice a year.

Oh, and I will be the first to admit that I have seen people show up in Japan merely looking to vailidate what they do and impress their students with their pictures and next rank. Hatsumi gives them what they want and doesn't help them much. They go away and the serious students get to go to smaller, more hands on, classes.

Isn't this equally as damaging as publicly supporting these practitioners?

But if someone is not even willing to train with others or go to Japan, how are they going to get better? They are not. But with the amount of stuff out there they can fool themselves and others by thinking that by expanding the size of their notebooks, they expand their skill.

Are you sure that those that go to Japan are always bettering themselves and improving? Are all of them great practitioners?

This is a wide ranging topic and one that I frequently think about. We have to do our best to get better. If we can't get to Hatsumi, we need to get to someone better than us in his art. We need to cut down to what we know, instead of what we can get off the internet and videos. In short, we need to be good at a few things instead of lousy at a lot.

Who did Takamatsu Sensei learn from in his later years? Many people suggest that mastery is just a label when referring to the Bujinkan, but Takamatsu Sensei and Hatsumi Sensei are both held with high esteem. They are often viewed as masters, though Hatsumi Sensei has stated that he is not. And yet he improved, by his own measure, without the availability of Takamatsu Sensei. How is this kind of self-discovery possible without someone of higher rank and skill? How did Takamatsu Sensei compare to his teachers?

If we go down the pipeline of legacy, what corrections would be made to Hatsumi Sensei's form? What would the ancestors of the art have to say about all of us? Hatsumi Sensei has never tested himself on the battlefield. He's never had to slit someone's throat. He's never faced a trained Samurai with intent to kill and the ability to do it. He walks his dogs for several hours every day and he wows us with his level of skill, but at his prime, would he have survived the ultimate test? How can we possibly answer that?

 

[Dale Seago]

I'm with Don on these points.

I can't afford to live in Japan, and frankly wouldn't want to -- it would drive me buggy, as a man can't even possess a proper dirk to wear with his kilt there.

But I do go and train in Japan, and when I'm there I don't just train with Soke: I make a point of always training with two of the shihan in particular, and occasionally others as well.

And in the time between trips, I go and train with others who also go to Japan. It's the next-best thing to living there.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

For those of us that are willing to move to train with someone that has a direct and active connection to Japan, does this completely eliminate controversy? What about practitioners that actively go to Japan and train regularly, but are viewed with some level of skepticism by other practitioners?

a) I'm not sure about what you're getting at and b) if you don't like someone's particular style of taijutsu, or don't think he's worth training with - don't train with him.

Is it also possible that what Hatsumi Sensei is teaching is riddled with mistakes if looked at from a certain perspective? We are a much different people, the Japanese included, than the founders of our art.

He's Soke now, he decides what is and isn't a mistake.

We dress it up as a survival art, but if you look closely at what we do, much of it is for causing pain, injury, and death. And yet we practice all of this with a completely different mindset then that of Ancient Japan.

Yes, most of us.

Though we may train for survival, we certainly don't need it to survive. How would one of the founders of the various Ryu view our interpretation? Is it not a corruption of a sort?

They would probably be rotating in their graves if they knew about some of the crackpots the Bujinkan has had its share of...also, better to have and not need than to need and not have.

Has the evolution of the art been entirely for the better? Judging by the videos, Takamatsu Sensei moves differently than Hatsumi Sensei. Is it possible that Hatsumi Sensei has forgotten something or that his interpretation of something is different than that of his teacher?

That his interpretation is different - probably. I haven't seen so much of Takamatsu sensei in action that I feel I can comment on the issue with certainty, I do however know that Hatsumi sensei himself has said he will never be as skilled as Takamatsu.
Which Takamatsu sensei would probably say about Ishitani, Mizuta and Toda as well...and on and on and on...

Also, I have a little theory that the behaviour of Hatsumi sensei's uke has at least a little bit to do with the responses generated on his part...the same is also true everywhere else. Don't think that the authority of a particular tori doesn't affect uke's behaviour...

Who's basics exactly? Even for those that train in Japan regularly, there seems to be a divergence on this point.

I'm with you on this point for the most part, however, one needs to keep in mind that there is a difference between basics as they're ment to be applied and basics whose main purpose is to create attributes.

here have so far been a number of divergences from the Bujinkan and Hatsumi Sensei by some high level practitioners. Not all of them have left the Bujinkan itself. Currently, as viewed by the community, and with a significant level of caution, there are members ranked as Judan and above that seem to share a philosophy and approach to the Bujinkan that is radically different than the majority's interpretation of Hatsumi sensei's teachings.

Though I don't agree with all of the opinions of the people I believe you are referring to, with Hatsumi sensei's artistic spirit, I can't say I'm all that surprised.

Aren't there exceptions to the rule? I know of a few practitioners that no longer have a valid link to Japan. Some have produced students solidly grounded in the "basics" and some of these students have gone to Japan with a foundation that is sometimes viewed as greater than that of those that visit Japan once or twice a year.

I think this is mostly an issue of how the former choose to train. I'll never tire of saying this - you CANNOT gain proficiency equal to that of any of the Japanese shihan if you only train the way they do nowadays. They're old men for crying out loud, no wonder they're taking it easy!

Are you sure that those that go to Japan are always bettering themselves and improving? Are all of them great practitioners?

I think this has been overlooked a bit, but going to Japan to train should probably been put into a perspective overlooking how they usually train.

Who did Takamatsu Sensei learn from in his later years?

It's funny, because this was brought up after yesterday's training at our place. Have you ever wondered if Hatsumi sensei is actually teaching as much as he is training himself?

They are often viewed as masters, though Hatsumi Sensei has stated that he is not.

"Anyone who says he's a Zen master/Mafioso isn't." :ultracool

If we go down the pipeline of legacy, what corrections would be made to Hatsumi Sensei's form? What would the ancestors of the art have to say about all of us? Hatsumi Sensei has never tested himself on the battlefield. He's never had to slit someone's throat. He's never faced a trained Samurai with intent to kill and the ability to do it. He walks his dogs for several hours every day and he wow's us with his level of skill, but at his prime, would he have survived the ultimate test?

He has however been known to tell people at Taikai and such that they were free to attack him with whatever they could throw at him even off the mat.

 

[Floating Egg]

a) I'm not sure about what you're getting at and b) if you don't like someone's particular style of taijutsu, or don't think he's worth training with - don't train with him.

I was addressing Don's point that we should either train in Japan or under someone who does. If a student is training under someone that does visit Japan regularly, but teaches in a certain way that is detrimental to the student, the result is just as unsatisfactory as training with someone that does not visit Japan regularly.

He's Soke now, he decides what is and isn't a mistake.

I don't understand. Are you suggesting that Hatsumi Sensei's relationship with the art grants him omnipotence?

They would probably be rotating in their graves if they knew about some of the crackpots the Bujinkan has had its share of...also, better to have and not need than to need and not have.

Yes, but it indicates something very specific about how we train, and how it has changed over the centuries. We're a fat decadent people now.

That his interpretation is different - probably. I haven't seen so much of Takamatsu sensei in action that I feel I can comment on the issue with certainty, I do however know that Hatsumi sensei himself has said he will never be as skilled as Takamatsu.
Which Takamatsu sensei would probably say about Ishitani, Mizuta and Toda as well...and on and on and on...

Also, I have a little theory that the behaviour of Hatsumi sensei's uke has at least a little bit to do with the responses generated on his part...the same is also true everywhere else. Don't think that the authority of a particular tori doesn't affect uke's behaviour...

If taken literally, we will never be as good as Hatsumi Sensei, and those that come after will never be as good as us. How then does one make the journey?

I'm with you on this point for the most part, however, one needs to keep in mind that there is a difference between basics as they're ment to be applied and basics whose main purpose is to create attributes.

I think I know what you mean, but could you elaborate?

Though I don't agree with all of the opinions of the people I believe you are referring to, with Hatsumi sensei's artistic spirit, I can't say I'm all that surprised.

Does lack of surprise mean acceptance in this case?

I think this is mostly an issue of how the former choose to train. I'll never tire of saying this - you CANNOT gain proficiency equal to that of any of the Japanese shihan if you only train the way they do nowadays. They're old men for crying out loud, no wonder they're taking it easy!

What can you gain? How should one train? My understanding is that there's a great deal of variance as far as early training is concerned.

I think this has been overlooked a bit, but going to Japan to train should probably been put into a perspective overlooking how they usually train.

How do you mean?

It's funny, because this was brought up after yesterday's training at our place. Have you ever wondered if Hatsumi sensei is actually teaching as much as he is training himself?

No, I never thought about it before.

"Anyone who says he's a Zen master/Mafioso isn't."

What about treating someone as if they're a master?

He has however been known to tell people at Taikai and such that they were free to attack him with whatever they could throw at him even off the mat.

Yes, I've noticed this in other Martial Arts as well. I'm not sure what it justifies.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I was addressing Don's point that we should either train in Japan or under someone who does. If a student is training under someone that does visit Japan regularly, but teaches in a certain way that is detrimental to the student, the result is just as unsatisfactory as training with someone that does not visit Japan regularly.

And sometimes, possibly even worse.

I don't understand. Are you suggesting that Hatsumi Sensei's relationship with the art grants him omnipotence?

As far as you and I are concerned, yes. Or do you think we know better than him?

Yes, but it indicates something very specific about how we train, and how it has changed over the centuries. We're a fat decadent people now.

Speak for yourself. :2xBird2:

If taken literally, we will never be as good as Hatsumi Sensei, and those that come after will never be as good as us. How then does one make the journey?

Making the best of the situation and training your a** off I suggest. It's what people have been doing so far.

I think I know what you mean, but could you elaborate?

Let's say you're doing a musha dori or related technique. Most of the time, what you're doing is training to understand the basic principles of what is required to make the move work - breaking the balance, moving your feet, twisting your hips, bending your knees etc etc. This means that all such motions are overdone in order to teach them to your body, but that is not necessarily the way it will look like when you've gained enough proficiency. Same thing with the step-through punch; we start out at a distance in order to have time to learn how to shift the weight and when to put the foot down and so forth. Once you have all your hip/spine twisting and all the other goodies in place, you don't need to exaggerate the movement as much in order to hit with all of your bodyweight.

Does lack of surprise mean acceptance in this case?

No, but there isn't very much I can do about it either.

What can you gain? How should one train? My understanding is that there's a great deal of variance as far as early training is concerned.

Indeed there is.

How do you mean?

See above. It's been said time and again that what Hatsumi sensei is teaching isn't in any way "finished" technically speaking. By the time you delve deeper into the abstract things he focuses on, you should already know a substantial part of the repertoire of throws, chokes, locks and so forth - otherwise you won't have any experience with which to elaborate on what he's been showing and making it work for YOU (this, of course, applies mainly to people of fifth dan and up - lesser mortals like myself are better off to just shut up and train for the time being).

No, I never thought about it before.

Bingo. What do you think he means when he says we have to "steal" knowledge?

What about treating someone as if they're a master?

I'm probably not the best person to comment on this, as I have a real problem with authorities who think they have to point out themselves as such...

Yes, I've noticed this in other Martial Arts as well. I'm not sure what it justifies.

That if you are uncertain about Hatsumi sensei's ability to fend for himself, go to Japan and have at him.