Sharing of Information

[7starmantis]

Lately I have been hearing alot of talk and hype about the sharing of information from one style to the next or one family to the next in the same style. For example, there are many "styles" of mantis and even several different "families" of 7* mantis. Everyone says we must come together and share information on our tarining methods and experience in order to help the style survive. So much talk about bringing all the families together to survive. I think this is great and I enjoy the sharing of information, but why are we so set on unifying into one "style" or "family"? The differences in families are what make kung fu beautiful, in my opinion.
What do you guys think, should be be trying to standardize each system to have a more solid cirriculum? Should we be trying to conform our differences even within the same style or are differences from teacher to teacher ok even within the same style?

7sm

 

[clfsean]

Lately I have been hearing alot of talk and hype about the sharing of information from one style to the next or one family to the next in the same style. For example, there are many "styles" of mantis and even several different "families" of 7* mantis. Everyone says we must come together and share information on our tarining methods and experience in order to help the style survive. So much talk about bringing all the families together to survive. I think this is great and I enjoy the sharing of information, but why are we so set on unifying into one "style" or "family"? The differences in families are what make kung fu beautiful, in my opinion.
What do you guys think, should be be trying to standardize each system to have a more solid cirriculum? Should we be trying to conform our differences even within the same style or are differences from teacher to teacher ok even within the same style?

7sm

Interesting. Diversity is a good thing. Too much diversity isn't. Many basic training methods are across the board of many different arts. The particulars & details are the break away pieces though. Whether out of necessity or geographic details or inventiveness, differences are there & should be applauded.

Standardizing CMA curricula, even within the same family of a MA... 7* for arguements sake, is probably never gonna happen. Sifu "A" may like everything that he learned & intends on teaching every piece of it. His classmate, Sifu "B" may not & only focus on basics, a few advanced forms & lots of drills, but is still teaching the same thing. Getting Sifu "A" & "B" to agree on how & what to teach could prove to be as bad as the Hatfield/McCoy fued. Just not gonna happen.

I look at it like this. If a CMA works, it will survive. If a CMA doesn't work, it won't survive. This just doens't apply to CMA, but any MA, regardless of the originating country.

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Hmmmm..... That's a good question, but i have a divided answer. lol

We're kinda in the process of that with Black Tiger. The reason being that Grandmaster Wong Cheung taught Black Tiger in thirds. He felt that the 100 forms in Black Tiger were just too much for one person to remember. My sifu being the top disciple of Wong Cheung, learned almost all of the 100 forms though, there's not many he doesn't know.

Now the thing is with other Black Tiger schools we'll never share any info. There are too many fake schools for one, and the other is that Black Tiger remains a secretive style.

jeff

 

[Eldritch Knight]

I would say that any attempt to unify martial arts, especially something as large and diverse as CMA, would probably just end up killing its strong tradition. Just look what happened to TKD after the WTF standardized everything *winces*.

 

[RHD]

Hmmmm..... That's a good question, but i have a divided answer. lol

We're kinda in the process of that with Black Tiger. The reason being that Grandmaster Wong Cheung taught Black Tiger in thirds. He felt that the 100 forms in Black Tiger were just too much for one person to remember. My sifu being the top disciple of Wong Cheung, learned almost all of the 100 forms though, there's not many he doesn't know.

Now the thing is with other Black Tiger schools we'll never share any info. There are too many fake schools for one, and the other is that Black Tiger remains a secretive style.

jeff

Hey Jeff, I mean no offense by this, but why in this day and age is Black Tiger still "secretive"?

Mike

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Hey Jeff, I mean no offense by this, but why in this day and age is Black Tiger still "secretive"?

Mike

Well, there are many reasons why actually.

Most of the only people left with any Black Tiger knowledge are the old schoolers, who are choosing to die with their knowledge. Then add to that the many fake,phooney,made up,etc... Black Tiger schools out there, and you can see why they refuse to share their knowledge.

I recently talked a sisuk of mine into teaching Black Tiiger in Canada where he lives. He hadn't taught since leaving Hong Kong in the late 70's. Like my sifu he's only teaching privately, but atleast he teaching it to someone. In about the next 15-20 yrs, if all goes as it is now... Su Hak Fu's Black Tiger will be lost forever.

My sifu at one time was allowing me to share alot of info, so i started creating a english website and we were working on a International Hak Fu Muhn Assocation. But that quickly changed when other Black Tiger schools started using this info to mislead ppl into thinking they're Su Hak Fu's Black Tiger, when they're clearly not. :whip:

jeff

 

[7starmantis]

I still dont see why it makes a difference. Fakes will exist long after we are dead and gone, refusing to teach or share knowledge will have no effect on them, only on the true martial artist seeking true knowledge.

7sm

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

I still dont see why it makes a difference. Fakes will exist long after we are dead and gone, refusing to teach or share knowledge will have no effect on them, only on the true martial artist seeking true knowledge.

7sm

I agree with you, the fakes will always be there, but who am i to go against my sifu's wishes?:idunno:

He let me put those vids up on the site, that were done without speed and power, but when i wanted to show what Black Tiger really looks like.....
he told me not to put up anymore info or vids so....

jeff

 

[7starmantis]

I agree with you, the fakes will always be there, but who am i to go against my sifu's wishes?:idunno:

He let me put those vids up on the site, that were done without speed and power, but when i wanted to show what Black Tiger really looks like.....
he told me not to put up anymore info or vids so....

jeff

I'm not attacking you personally, I just think its a huge waste for this type of thing to continue. I also think it has alot to do with ego and pride which are very abundant in today's world. I see the point, but anyone who watches one of our students or even sifu's play a form and learn it from watching will be easy to spot. Especially when it comes to fighting.

7sm

 

[Andrew Green]

Traditional arts are in a funny place

"Traditionally" forks and divides where common and accepted as people cross trained and merged systems, worked out there own interpretations based on what they learnt. Styles evolved and changed as often as new schools opened.

Nowadays this is frowned on in "traditional" schools...

 

[7starmantis]

Traditional arts are in a funny place

"Traditionally" forks and divides where common and accepted as people cross trained and merged systems, worked out there own interpretations based on what they learnt. Styles evolved and changed as often as new schools opened.

Nowadays this is frowned on in "traditional" schools...

I wouldn't make such a large "lump statement" about it. "traditional" schools are not all the same, there are differing degrees and levels of traditional. I know plenty of "traditional" schools who do not "frown" upon the "evolution" or changing.

7sm

 

[clfsean]

Ditto...

 

[Dronak]

should we be trying to standardize each system to have a more solid cirriculum? Should we be trying to conform our differences even within the same style or are differences from teacher to teacher ok even within the same style?

Well, I'm far from an expert, but I suppose both sides have their points. My general view is that all the families within a single style should have some shared aspects. If they have the same origin, then something should be the same about all of them. Even if it's only a few basic level forms, something should unify all the families and show why they all belong to the same style. Different families could have some differences depending on who they were taught by and how they may have modified or developed forms and such. I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with that. But I think they do need something that ties them to the main style. If they've moved too far away and become too different, I think it's hard for them to claim to be the same style.

So I guess my main thought is that everything within a certain style should have some of the same forms or training or something, the same sort of foundation that says and shows "we're all style X". If that foundation is in place for all the different families, unifying them under the same style, then I think it's OK for them to develop a bit differently if they want/need to.

 

[7starmantis]

They normally do, I mean the different families of 7* mantis would be indistinguishable except by someone who was experienced. The similarities are numerous, but should we really strive to make sure there are similarities? They will be similar simply because they are both 7* mantis, but why should we strive to destroy the differences?

7sm

 

[clfsean]

...but should we really strive to make sure there are similarities?

Not necessarily

They will be similar simply because they are both 7* mantis...

Yes indeed, but different lines. Cousins, brothers, sisters... from the same mother. The same, but each a little different than the other & for that fact a little more special & necessary

... but why should we strive to destroy the differences?
7sm

No... homogeneity for something as diverse as Mantis is a bad thing. You lose flavors, ideas, techniques, etc... that may have never been explored had the core Mantis principles not been applied to different bodies, sizes, experiences, etc...

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

I'm not attacking you personally, I just think its a huge waste for this type of thing to continue. I also think it has alot to do with ego and pride which are very abundant in today's world. I see the point, but anyone who watches one of our students or even sifu's play a form and learn it from watching will be easy to spot. Especially when it comes to fighting.

7sm

No problem i didn't take it as a personal attack...(note to myself remember to re-attach 7*'s brake line on his car)

I agree with you on this,but my sifu feels he's not the one to change things. This is the reason we tried to start an association, but it quickly became a problem with ego's.

Sadly, it was not the elders ego's that were a problem, but ppl that barely know black tiger that wanted to do things without even involving the elders. That is clearly a show of disrespect to them.

My sifu wanted the elders to be on the Board Of Directors because he felt it was only right, but other people have their own agenda's and didn't want to wait until a face to face meeting could be arranged in Hong Kong. So it was at this point that my sifu ditched the association idea.

My sifu was the Chairman of the Black Tiger Association in Hong Kong under Sigung Wong Cheung, and was chosen by Wong Cheung to succeed him as Sifu of the school. So many of the elders look up to him, but he still wanted to do it the proper and respectful way.

My sifu is very traditional and he doesn't want to do anything that might cast a cloud over what Wong Cheung built.

My sifu says alot

" I don't care about people trashing my name, but they will not trash my Master's name"

He really lives by that, he always refers to sigung as "My Master" never sifu,teacher,etc... When you sit and talk to my sifu about his time with sigung, his eyes light up and you can see the respect that he holds for Wong Cheung.

From what i'm told many in Hong Kong, not just black tiger people hold that kinda respect for Wong Cheung.

jeff

 

[pekho]

What do you do about tape hiss? I.e. how do you prevent the eventual degradation of a movement that is changed a little bit each time it is copied? When a school is young, a single sifu can be the arbiter of what is correct. As a school grows, it seems necessary for members of a lineage to compare movements and try to figure out what moves are original. However, I have been strongly discouraged from trying to create a video library of movements. This seems to cause a movement to be fixed and unchanging and thus no longer "alive". So students of a school must try and maintain the original form of a movement, while allowing it to stay "alive", in the sense of being able to change.

Josh

 

[brothershaw]

THat may be true of keeping it static, but sometimes the change to a movement is just because it works best for the particular person ( or so they think), then down the line you have something that may be deemed conceptual because it may no longer be applicable.
If a teacher can find one good universal way that works for everybody on anybody it should be preserved to a degree.
I am however not a stickler for tradition or formality.


The people into koryu budo on the other hand are sticklers for preservation, even thought it may no longer be relevant.

 

[7starmantis]

It all goes back to the idea of technique vs. principle. No technique in CMA is a static 100% set thing, they can all change to fit the situation. The idea or principle behind the technique is still the same, however simple body movements, changes in angles, body sizes, etc will change small positioning details. That doesn't change the technique or principle behind it.

7sm