Liberal vs Conservative debate split from "Am I missing something"

[Tez3]

When did America start to hate communism so much and why? Of all the countries in the world America is surely the last one that would ever go over to communism, I imagine you could count active communists in the Sates in hundreds not even thousands.It's seems especially during the McCarthy years that the reds under the beds scare was just that, a scare. I know the then Soviet bloc had 'the bomb' but they were hardly going to invade in all honestly, they simply couldn't have afforded to. Nato matched them for weapons so it was always going to be a stand off. So honestly, why are Americans so afraid of communists? Other countries have them and they've never actually bothered anyone, being, frankly political no hopers, even the Labour Party here doesn't rate them.

 

[Empty Hands]

When did America start to hate communism so much and why?

There is a long history to it, which came to a particular head in the 1930's. Union busting, huge strikes, lots of labor unrest, and the backlash to it were all a big part of the landscape in regards to the Great Depression. However, this is a history shared by many other nations, with union busting and labor unrest a much larger problem in certain parts of Europe for much longer.

Interestingly, when it was convenient and necessary, the Commies weren't such bad guys after all. That time of course was WWII. Right afterwards, before the war even ended, the demonization and backlash started up all over again. Given that, I don't think the reaction is a long term historical one, but mostly due to the propagandizing and social control necessary to hype the American people up to perceive and confront the USSR as an enemy. I guess the programming stuck, although of course in most segments of our society you really don't see this intense dislike and reaction anymore. There is simply no need. After all, the American people are in no great hurry to give up their Socialist institutions - the military, social benefit programs, and the like.

The intense anti-communism is now mostly relegated to a small segment of the ideological right. Like all fringe beliefs, this is of course amplified on the internet, so that your average Brit might think it is really more widespread than it actually is. To the extent that the average American even really understands what Socialism and Communism are, they really don't give a damn anymore.

 

[Touch Of Death]

There's a politician from Nebraska (cann't remember his name or what he's running for though), he says "it's not about right or left, it's about forward or backward." I say "it's not about right or left, it's about who you want to be in charge: the greedy, the curupt, or the Proletarian Dictatorship"

Funny Tez. However, Marx himself said nothing much about religion, it was Stalin who condemmed religion. Stalin was really the one who screwed the pooch with Socialism/Communism. Infact, both are dirty words State-side. A classic example is Universal Health Care. Some of us are trying to get it, those against (the Republicans) are calling it "Socialised Healthcare". Geuss why?
Democracy is a dirty word in general. Aristotle was one of the first ones to coin the term, and he said it when a government of the people becomes curropt. Haha.

MMM... this makes me wonder about something... topic for anouther thread though.

Backward or forward is right or left.
Sean

 

[Ray]

It's deeper than just the two words "liberal" and "conservative." I believe there are fiscal conservatives and liberals; social conservatives and liberals; as well as a few other ways to look at liberal vrs conservative.

Lastly there is the "convenient liberal" (or "convenient conservative"). e.g. I'm completely against abortion except in the case of my mistress who is pregnant with my out-of-wedlock child.

 

[Ahriman]

Hmm, I don't know why do Americans hate commies, I know why we Hungarians hate them. We had extreme right and extreme left dictatorships here, the latter ending in 1990. We're still suffering from the second, and those who were alive then have good memories about Horthy (the right extremist dictator, I mean governor). Simply put, in our national experience dictatorships suck, but lefties screw up the economy, while righties help it growing.
Oh, and my parents and grandparents told us about the good old educational things like proving why will the USA collapse in a few years, why are all westerners are idiots, rapists, drunkards and the like. If anyone from the USA would've been here, he/she would have a reason for hating communism for the rest of his/her life.
...
Now this issue with parties taking up names of ideals or parties misusing titles... we have a similar thing here. The self-proclaimed right side is following something resembling communism while the socialists are more like the "traditional" right side. So if we don't want communism here we have to vote for one of the descendants of the former Hungarian Communist Party. Even more interesting that the "right side" has skinheads AND gypsies as supporters - imagine Nazis and jews allying under the flag of Stalin.
...
After all, I hate politicians. I hate racists. I hate criminals. Someone should shoot them all. (and yes, I simplified things a bit. It's aaaalways more complicated...)

 

[Archangel M]

Why do we "hate" Communism?

"The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all private property."
- Karl Marx

"Communism and fascism or nazism, although poles apart in their intellectual content, are similar in this, that both have emotional appeal to the type of personality that takes pleasure in being submerged in a mass movement and submitting to superior authority."
- James A. C. Brown

"Communism is the death of the soul. It is the organization of total conformity - in short, of tyranny - and it is committed to making tyranny universal."
- Adlai E. Stevenson

"Communism is not love. Communism is a hammer which we use to crush the enemy."
- Mao Tse-Tung

"We must hate - hatred is the basis of communism. Children must be taught to hate their parents if they are not communists."
- Vladimir Ilich Lenin

It basically stands for everything my relatives left the European side of the globe for all those years ago. We got tired of not having our own property, our own say and the ability to tell our royal overlords to shove it.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I doubt Lenin said that, you're misunderstanding Marx, and the rest of that is irrelevant. Why? The only one of those men who are left and claims to be Communist is Mao, and he is not a Communist.

I could read nothing about Democracies origin, and what it does and how it does it, then, I could look at a country which is dictorial, curropt, and so on and so forth, but, claims to be Democratic. I have no basis of knowledge or understanding of Democracy, so I could very well say "this is Democracy, it is evil" Problem is, every truelly Socialist or Communistic state doesn't claim to be. But, every state which claims to be Socialistic/Communistic is in fact not. Same problem.

Now then, This area of discussion is over. I will NOT argue with someone as to what is and is not Socialism, and whether it is good or not. Feel free to argue with others, but I'm done.

On a parting thought I AM BEOWULF!!!!

 

[CoryKS]

Y'know, it's funny how whenever somebody explains the reasons, based on historical events, why they hate communism/socialism, people reply with "well, you don't really understand socialism. You don't understand what Marx was saying. You don't get it." Poor, misunderstood socialism. It's so hard to understand that fricking hundreds of millions of people have died because of... what? Poor implementation? Semantic nuance?

Just once, consider the possibility that maybe a political theory that is so difficult to grasp that it has failed miserably every. single. time. it has been tried -- and taken countless lives down with it -- maybe that theory should remain just that: a theory.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Interestingly, when it was convenient and necessary, the Commies weren't such bad guys after all. That time of course was WWII. Right afterwards, before the war even ended, the demonization and backlash started up all over again.

Thats not exactly true. Many in the U.S. government and population despised Communism during WWII. Patton is the definitive example. He wanted to push on into Russia, and not just stop with the Nazis.

Quite frankly, although I dont see the Communist Party itself being influential, the ideals off communism (my working definition of which is extreme socialism) have crept into the U.S. political spectrum. Please, though, at this point dont confuse this with saying that we have quiet a corrupt a system as the old USSR. I think that most people who believe it have a sincere belief that it is the best thing for all people. IMO, they are wrong because it refuses to take human psychology into account.

 

[Archangel M]

I doubt Lenin said that, you're misunderstanding Marx, and the rest of that is irrelevant. Why? The only one of those men who are left and claims to be Communist is Mao, and he is not a Communist.

I could read nothing about Democracies origin, and what it does and how it does it, then, I could look at a country which is dictorial, curropt, and so on and so forth, but, claims to be Democratic. I have no basis of knowledge or understanding of Democracy, so I could very well say "this is Democracy, it is evil" Problem is, every truelly Socialist or Communistic state doesn't claim to be. But, every state which claims to be Socialistic/Communistic is in fact not. Same problem.

Now then, This area of discussion is over. I will NOT argue with someone as to what is and is not Socialism, and whether it is good or not. Feel free to argue with others, but I'm done.

On a parting thought I AM BEOWULF!!!!

The day I take the word of an 18 yo kid on the origins and authenticity and meanings of direct quotes.....I doubt you understand the true philosophy of any political system.

 

[CuongNhuka]

The day I take the word of an 18 yo kid on the origins and authenticity and meanings of direct quotes.....I doubt you understand the true philosophy of any political system.

Thats a Red Herring and you're because you cann't argue with me using anything that resembles fact.

 

[brianhunter]

Thats a Red Herring and you're because you cann't argue with me using anything that resembles fact.

I think he argued with you using a good deal of facts and direct quotes. You are not using any sort of intellectual debate or factual rebuttals.

You are "debunking" qoutes and history based on your feelings and personal beliefs without any real fact while accusing others of the same thing.

When in grade school we called this type of arguing; "I know you are but what am I?"

I think it is pretty obvious that you have no true ability to think or debate with any true facts or critical thinking skills. You also stated you were done responding to people in this thread.

 

[Archangel M]

It amazing what people on the internet think is "fact" or will accept as "fact".

 

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[Xue Sheng]

"The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all private property."
- Karl Marx

"Communism is not love. Communism is a hammer which we use to crush the enemy."
- Mao Tse-Tung

"We must hate - hatred is the basis of communism. Children must be taught to hate their parents if they are not communists."
- Vladimir Ilich Lenin

It basically stands for everything my relatives left the European side of the globe for all those years ago. We got tired of not having our own property, our own say and the ability to tell our royal overlords to shove it.

I doubt Lenin said that, you're misunderstanding Marx, and the rest of that is irrelevant. Why? The only one of those men who are left and claims to be Communist is Mao, and he is not a Communist.

Well I would say Archangel M has taken Marx out of context to make a point that Marx was not exactly making.

And yes I do believe Lenin said that or at least the “"We must hate - hatred is the basis of communism” bit as for the rest, I am not exactly sure.

And Mao Tse-Tung was most certainly a Communist or at least as much as anyone else that claims to be is.

Although I believe Archangel M is mixing up Socialist and Communist Theory for his argument a bit the quotes he supplied are correct.

But you can get tons of quotes on hatred form all over the world and from just about every culture so it is everywhere otherwise there would be nothing said about it.

"You know, the thing that struck me about Civil War music was how bloody it was; it was full of hatred. There was incredible vitriol in it."
T-Bone Burnett

“Hatred is an element of the struggle, a relentless hatred of the enemy…transforming him into an effective, violent and selective, cold blooded killing machine. A people without hatred cannot vanquish a brutal enemy.” Che Guevare.

"Hatred is inveterate anger."
Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Islam teaches tolerance, not hatred; universal brotherhood, not enmity; peace, and not violence. "
Pervez Musharraf

 

[SageGhost83]

I am with you, Xue. A lot of the arguments made could easily apply to both sides of the coin. Hate is universal, and millions of people have died under the implementation of *every* form of government, not just communism. It is like two people wrestle in the mud then one points at the other and accuses him of being filthy because he is covered in mud. Communism has never succeeded in any nation. However, every democracy that has ever stood has collapsed - even going back to Athenian democracy. I think it has more to do with the competence of a particular government than the system they are implementing because you can screw democracy up pretty badly and make it look just as backward and evil if a total jerk gets voted into office by a naive or even vindictive populace. Was communism a total failure or was Stalin just a total prick who would've screwed up any and every system including democracy itself? I think that every system has its pro's and con's and can be extremely good or extremely bad depending on who's in charge and what they are willing to do with that power. No system is perfect and some systems work better or worse depending on the ones in charge, type of civilization, culture, and so forth. For the record, my money is on democracy.

 

[Archangel M]

But when coming from the "founding fathers" of the political movements...I believe those quotes are more telling.

 

[Xue Sheng]

But when coming from the "founding fathers" of the political movements...I believe those quotes are more telling.

It is interesting that you point out founding fathers.

There has been more than a little speculation that the founding fathers of our country when they wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were not writing for all in the country actually but more for white land owners

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

If that was in fact the case that puts our founding fathers in a different light as well and is also telling.

But then I have always been one to say that you cannot really judge history by the standards of the present.

 

[Empty Hands]

There has been more than a little speculation that the founding fathers of our country when they wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were not writing for all in the country actually but more for white land owners.

Some were, some weren't. Some were for universal suffrage and the abolishment of slavery, but if they had stood by their guns too strongly, no union would have taken place. Hence the 3/5ths compromise, and similar. Politics is the art of the possible, after all.

 

[Xue Sheng]

and later (much later and not by the founding fathers) the additions of the 15th and 19th amendmants.

But this is getting into things of another thread