Leung Ting?

SFC JeffJ

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It looks like I may have the opprotunity to study under some people who are a part of Leung Tings organization. Can anyone tell me about the quality of that org and/or how it differs from other WC?

Jeff
 

yipman_sifu

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JeffJ said:
It looks like I may have the opprotunity to study under some people who are a part of Leung Tings organization. Can anyone tell me about the quality of that org and/or how it differs from other WC?

Jeff

Leung Ting organization is considered to be the largest among others. It is known by the IWTA in Asia and the US, and EWTO in Europe and some exceptional asian countries. I personally train in it and it is a very well organized organization.

The organization produced many astonishing fighters such as Sifu Thomas Mannes of Germany (He is the man in the bottom picture), Sifu Jeff Webb in the US, and of course the EBMAS founder Sifu Emin Boztepe.

Leung Ting himself is amazing, he is now like a proffessor in combat, and he conducts many seminars to armies and special forces.

The difference between him and other's organiztions is that his way in teaching and the sequence in forms and drills is well organized and modified. I mean that his system has been modified to deal with all the situations of combat. Taking an example William's Cheung organization, which still teaches the traditional way of Wing Chun.

If you go to Sifu Gary Lam's organization, you will know the difference regarding the sequence in teaching the Wooden dummy in early stages, While it is taught at later stages in Leung Ting's.

Sifu Leung Ting organization is grwoing every day, wanna join him? it is a good idea.
 

Phil Elmore

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Structurally I'd consider the Leung Ting lineage inferior to the Cheung lineage. I've heard repeated reports of some sort of culture of unpleasant personal behavior among the Leung Ting lineage, but that's just hearsay.
 

WingChun Lawyer

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Phil Elmore said:
Structurally I'd consider the Leung Ting lineage inferior to the Cheung lineage. I've heard repeated reports of some sort of culture of unpleasant personal behavior among the Leung Ting lineage, but that's just hearsay.

I heard first person reports of cult-like behaviour among Leung Ting´s organization, as well as cult of personality around Ting himself.

I never practiced it myself, so I will reserve my judgement regarding its technical aspects.

The brazilian branch of the organization is well known for not sparring, practicing instead what they call the "blitzdefense" - essentially one step sparring, which sucks. Personally I would stay away from any place where they won´t allow you to spar hard and regularly, so that´s an important point for you to consider - if they try to sell you their blitzdefense in lieu of true sparring, run like hell.
 
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SFC JeffJ

SFC JeffJ

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WingChun Lawyer said:
I heard first person reports of cult-like behaviour among Leung Ting織s organization, as well as cult of personality around Ting himself.

I never practiced it myself, so I will reserve my judgement regarding its technical aspects.

The brazilian branch of the organization is well known for not sparring, practicing instead what they call the "blitzdefense" - essentially one step sparring, which sucks. Personally I would stay away from any place where they won織t allow you to spar hard and regularly, so that織s an important point for you to consider - if they try to sell you their blitzdefense in lieu of true sparring, run like hell.

In my case, I'm not worried about lack of sparring. My wife and many of our friends teach TKD or Shotokan, so I'll end up sparring regardless. I will even have the benifit of sparring outside of the style. As long as the WC is good and I don't see any cult-like behavior, I'll probably go ahead and train with them. Gotta wonder about that Wing Tsun(tm) thing though.

Jeff
 

WingChun Lawyer

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JeffJ said:
In my case, I'm not worried about lack of sparring. My wife and many of our friends teach TKD or Shotokan, so I'll end up sparring regardless. I will even have the benifit of sparring outside of the style. As long as the WC is good and I don't see any cult-like behavior, I'll probably go ahead and train with them. Gotta wonder about that Wing Tsun(tm) thing though.

Jeff

That´s good. Please do tell us your experiences there, and do tell us how the Wing Chun they teach fares when sparring people outside the style. Personally I would not go to a martial arts school if I had to seek sparring elsewhere, but if you are so curious about the system, by all means try it.

I´ll send you a PM.
 
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SFC JeffJ

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Will do. I'm really hoping this works out, only been wanting to study WC for oh, over 10 years now.

Jeff
 

yipman_sifu

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Phil Elmore said:
Structurally I'd consider the Leung Ting lineage inferior to the Cheung lineage. I've heard repeated reports of some sort of culture of unpleasant personal behavior among the Leung Ting lineage, but that's just hearsay.

So you consider the Cheung lineage Superior in its concepts?!

Let me put it this way. William cheung as we know is an old student of the Grandmaster, he started to learn Wing Chun from Yipman himself and then introduced Lee Jun Fan to the system, in which he left to Australia and began his own teachings, leaving Jun Fan to the Gongsau Wong who was considered to be the Beimo king at that time. William had taught his system by the name of Wing Chun. He considered his system to be the best while others were no match to his system.

Leung Ting was the last student of Yipman, he learned Wing Chun from both Yipman and master Leung Sheung. Leung Ting was taking the name Wing Tsun in order to have his own brand. Then he had to establish with a former german wrestler known by master Keith R.kernspecht the Wing Tsun organization. Master Kernspecht learned Wing Tsun for years and believed that it is a very affective system of self-defence. He then started to teach Europeans in the late 70's and 80's. This caused the old Cheung lineage to believe that they were older and better, and as I heard that they were always challenging the Ting's Kernspecht lineage. Among these challenges was a Chi Sao challenge in which someone from the Cheung lineage challeanged leung Ting while he was giving a seminar, and this guy was able to some extent win the upper hand. Does that mean that Cheung's system is superior?, No. After one year, a young lad from Leung Ting lineage,between ages 18-20, using only some Turkish wrestling technique, Challenged William Cheung and defeated him in a well known incident.

What I want to say is, we must not care wheather this lineage is better than that, we must consider more about what we learn for ourselves and what we can get in a case of any street encounter we could have, how we could respond?, what should we do?, and of course, trying to avoid fights as much as we can.
 

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yipman_sifu said:
So you consider the Cheung lineage Superior in its concepts?!

Let me put it this way. William cheung as we know is an old student of the Grandmaster, he started to learn Wing Chun from Yipman himself and then introduced Lee Jun Fan to the system, in which he left to Australia and began his own teachings, leaving Jun Fan to the Gongsau Wong who was considered to be the Beimo king at that time. William had taught his system by the name of Wing Chun. He considered his system to be the best while others were no match to his system.

Leung Ting was the last student of Yipman, he learned Wing Chun from both Yipman and master Leung Sheung. Leung Ting was taking the name Wing Tsun in order to have his own brand. Then he had to establish with a former german wrestler known by master Keith R.kernspecht the Wing Tsun organization. Master Kernspecht learned Wing Tsun for years and believed that it is a very affective system of self-defence. He then started to teach Europeans in the late 70's and 80's. This caused the old Cheung lineage to believe that they were older and better, and as I heard that they were always challenging the Ting's Kernspecht lineage. Among these challenges was a Chi Sao challenge in which someone from the Cheung lineage challeanged leung Ting while he was giving a seminar, and this guy was able to some extent win the upper hand. Does that mean that Cheung's system is superior?, No. After one year, a young lad from Leung Ting lineage,between ages 18-20, using only some Turkish wrestling technique, Challenged William Cheung and defeated him in a well known incident.

What I want to say is, we must not care wheather this lineage is better than that, we must consider more about what we learn for ourselves and what we can get in a case of any street encounter we could have, how we could respond?, what should we do?, and of course, trying to avoid fights as much as we can.

I agree with this. There are documented differences/approachs to Wing Tsun, Ving Tsun, Wing Chun, which on the face of it, may not be as great as initially made to appear. A lot of this stems from marketing, and needing to offer something different to other variants of Wing Chun et al. To go with this is having various masters/senior sifus etc who all, to a greater or lesser extent have egos. Some maybe larger than others, but it's in part down to egos and marketing.

The comment about the ting lineage being structurally inferior to the Cheung version, is a valid and good point. I've not trained in either, so would be unable to comment on that, although, I would add, that with any art, style whatever, there will be people that are better than others. It could be that you could study in the Ting lineage, and be far superior to the Cheung practitioner, or maybe not. So, IMHO perhaps that's also something to consider.

As I've said before, I don't care if my "lineage" trained with Ip Chun, Yip Man, Ip Chuns pet alsation Dave, so long as I get something from what I study, that I both 1. Enjoy 2. Has a good element of realism and 3. I can transfer a few moves to the street to help myself, should the time come that I need it. Try it, check it out. If you like it, great, if not, look elsewhere, but forming your opinion based on experience would perhaps be better for you. Just my tuppence.

Cheers guys.

K
 

yipman_sifu

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Kensai said:
I agree with this. There are documented differences/approachs to Wing Tsun, Ving Tsun, Wing Chun, which on the face of it, may not be as great as initially made to appear. A lot of this stems from marketing, and needing to offer something different to other variants of Wing Chun et al. To go with this is having various masters/senior sifus etc who all, to a greater or lesser extent have egos. Some maybe larger than others, but it's in part down to egos and marketing.

The comment about the ting lineage being structurally inferior to the Cheung version, is a valid and good point. I've not trained in either, so would be unable to comment on that, although, I would add, that with any art, style whatever, there will be people that are better than others. It could be that you could study in the Ting lineage, and be far superior to the Cheung practitioner, or maybe not. So, IMHO perhaps that's also something to consider.

As I've said before, I don't care if my "lineage" trained with Ip Chun, Yip Man, Ip Chuns pet alsation Dave, so long as I get something from what I study, that I both 1. Enjoy 2. Has a good element of realism and 3. I can transfer a few moves to the street to help myself, should the time come that I need it. Try it, check it out. If you like it, great, if not, look elsewhere, but forming your opinion based on experience would perhaps be better for you. Just my tuppence.

Cheers guys.

K


that's true my friend. It is the individual progress that matters.
 

Phil Elmore

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So you consider the Cheung lineage Superior in its concepts?!

Yes, I do. Politics aside I've seen the structural and physical expression of both lineages and Cheung's is (in my opinion, obviously) preferable for practical application. I attended a seminar with Sigung John Crescione, too, and his was superior to what I'd seen of the other two (he's trained with I don't know how many different lineages -- I seem to recall he's studied with all the major branches, but don't hold me to that).

I don't speak for any of these people, however -- I'm not exactly on good terms with Sigung Crescione or his students, as far as I know.
 

yipman_sifu

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Phil Elmore said:
Yes, I do. Politics aside I've seen the structural and physical expression of both lineages and Cheung's is (in my opinion, obviously) preferable for practical application. I attended a seminar with Sigung John Crescione, too, and his was superior to what I'd seen of the other two (he's trained with I don't know how many different lineages -- I seem to recall he's studied with all the major branches, but don't hold me to that).

I don't speak for any of these people, however -- I'm not exactly on good terms with Sigung Crescione or his students, as far as I know.

Who cares Pal, the important thing is just being able to defend ourselves in street encounters. ( Although it is very rare to be involved in encounters, one should practise and learn the concepts).
 

Phil Elmore

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"Pal?"

I'm not trying to pick a fight or offend you. The question was asked about Leung Ting in general and I answered it based on what I've seen.
 

bcbernam777

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Here is my 2 cents worth, LT's WT tends to be very technique orientated in its approach to learning. This approach is the wrong end of things, like putting the cart before the horse. Alotof the curriculum is dragged out to simply force the student to pay for longer (and I have that from former students of the LT system) at the end of the day it is up to you, however you will find that LT's system is not all it is cracked up to be. If you do a dillegent search over many MA forums you will find that there are former students who have not had a positive outcome. I have touched hands with a former studnet under the LT system, he had been learning WT longer than I had and was unable to withstand my attack/defense. My personal observation from all of the empirical evidence out is that you shoud avoid LT's WT. That is my opinion, take it for what it is worth
 

yipman_sifu

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bcbernam777 said:
Here is my 2 cents worth, LT's WT tends to be very technique orientated in its approach to learning. This approach is the wrong end of things, like putting the cart before the horse. Alotof the curriculum is dragged out to simply force the student to pay for longer (and I have that from former students of the LT system) at the end of the day it is up to you, however you will find that LT's system is not all it is cracked up to be. If you do a dillegent search over many MA forums you will find that there are former students who have not had a positive outcome. I have touched hands with a former studnet under the LT system, he had been learning WT longer than I had and was unable to withstand my attack/defense. My personal observation from all of the empirical evidence out is that you shoud avoid LT's WT. That is my opinion, take it for what it is worth

Maybe you tried hands with unqualified people. If the outcome is little as you say, why Leung Ting and Kernspecht disciples are the best. Take sifu Mannes as an example. If you watched how this Sifu bridges gaps and attacks, you will regognize that he doesn't need Chi Sao to coninue the attack, just finishing it before it starts. (( He is extremely fast)). Take Sifu Emin as an example, I know that you don't have that respect to him, but we all know that he is to be one of the best around here; He proved that Cheung's Wing Chun was not the only one to talk about, he challenged the Gracies but they refused, and he fought in very hard street encounters that included guns. Some people in here said that the Leung Ting lineage lack sparring, well how come?!. If they really lacked it, how those Sifus learned how to fight and control their situations?!!!.

I may agree with you bcbernam777 that there is nothing perfect, and maybe your Sifu Fung Ping Boi is better than many, due to the fact that he learned directly from Yipman, but still as I know, the Leung Ting lineage is not as bad as many people are saying here, especially when it comes comparing it to the Cheung lineage.
 

Phil Elmore

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Schools and lineages often disagree (and of course there is great historical animosity between Leung Ting and William Cheung, as I understand it).

I believe there is a right way and a wrong way to perform certain techniques (and a right way and a wrong way to approach the training methodology), even though some lineages teach the variations as acceptable. As always, reality is the deciding factor. In the school where I trained for a couple of years, for example, we were taught to distribute our weight evenly on both feet for optimum balance and mobility. Anyone who tells you, therefore, that Wing Chun is ineffective because the weight is placed primarily on the rear leg is in error though that error may be the product of poor teaching in a lineage or school imparting improper structure.

When we discuss the efficacy of Wing Chun (and when we compare lineages), we must acknowledge that many schools and lineages teach different things. Where there is conflict, we must be biased towards those techniques and principles that offer the best REALISTIC results. All else is not proof of Wing Chuns ineffectiveness it is proof of poor teaching (or poor learning). The final arbiter is reality, not claims or stories or family trees. Wherever a better alternative exists in the pantheon of Wing Chun masters, it is that alternative that represents true Wing Chun.
 

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Phil Elmore said:
Schools and lineages often disagree (and of course there is great historical animosity between Leung Ting and William Cheung, as I understand it).

I believe there is a right way and a wrong way to perform certain techniques (and a right way and a wrong way to approach the training methodology), even though some lineages teach the variations as acceptable. As always, reality is the deciding factor. In the school where I trained for a couple of years, for example, we were taught to distribute our weight evenly on both feet for optimum balance and mobility. Anyone who tells you, therefore, that Wing Chun is ineffective because the weight is placed primarily on the rear leg is in error though that error may be the product of poor teaching in a lineage or school imparting improper structure.

When we discuss the efficacy of Wing Chun (and when we compare lineages), we must acknowledge that many schools and lineages teach different things. Where there is conflict, we must be biased towards those techniques and principles that offer the best REALISTIC results. All else is not proof of Wing Chuns ineffectiveness it is proof of poor teaching (or poor learning). The final arbiter is reality, not claims or stories or family trees. Wherever a better alternative exists in the pantheon of Wing Chun masters, it is that alternative that represents true Wing Chun.

Well said. And I know you weren't trying to start a bar fight. :)
 

yipman_sifu

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Phil Elmore said:
Schools and lineages often disagree (and of course there is great historical animosity between Leung Ting and William Cheung, as I understand it).

I believe there is a right way and a wrong way to perform certain techniques (and a right way and a wrong way to approach the training methodology), even though some lineages teach the variations as acceptable. As always, reality is the deciding factor. In the school where I trained for a couple of years, for example, we were taught to distribute our weight evenly on both feet for optimum balance and mobility. Anyone who tells you, therefore, that Wing Chun is ineffective because the weight is placed primarily on the rear leg is in error though that error may be the product of poor teaching in a lineage or school imparting improper structure.



When we discuss the efficacy of Wing Chun (and when we compare lineages), we must acknowledge that many schools and lineages teach different things. Where there is conflict, we must be biased towards those techniques and principles that offer the best REALISTIC results. All else is not proof of Wing Chuns ineffectiveness it is proof of poor teaching (or poor learning). The final arbiter is reality, not claims or stories or family trees. Wherever a better alternative exists in the pantheon of Wing Chun masters, it is that alternative that represents true Wing Chun.

So what is the thing that makes the poor learning in your idea?, I mean what made Leung Ting lineage concepts not that good in your idea, and what made someone like William Cheung's Wing Chun be better.

Of course if we mention someone like Sifu Wong Shun-Leung, or Sifu Gary Lam. I consider them the best, but why such conflicts when it comes to Leung Ting?.
 
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