Let's discuss the Xu Xiaodong vs Ding Hao fight.

JowGaWolf

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The MMA guy only uses hook punches. He didn't even throw one single jab or cross. This is the opposite of the WC approach. I have always believed that if

- A only throws hook punches and
- B only throws jab and cross,

A will have advantage over B. What do you guys think on this?
I don't think either one has a real advantage. The hook can counter the jab and the jab can counter the hook. However, the hook will be more lethal than the jab. Hooks tend to land on the side of the head and on the back of the head. Hooks are also multi-directional (multi-angle) punches and have a tendency to travel in and out of the human's field of vision. We can look at professional fights of many systems and see just how devastating the hooks can be. I think I rather fight someone who is good at throwing jabs than to fight someone who is good with throwing hooks. It's just easier to analyze the punching path of Jab in comparison to the punching path of a hook, that may or may not land on your face, the back of your head, or on your kidneys.

Keep in mind my willingness to deal with the jab over the hook is 100% based on my ability to handle one better than the other. It could be totally different for someone who is excellent with defending against hooks but not so much with defending against jabs in comparison.
 

Nobody Important

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True! But a lead hand punch CAN be a power punch! Its just usually not called a jab at that point. This was Bruce Lee's forte, and a key punch in JKD.
All punches in boxing can be thrown with the lead hand and with power, generally body movement is used to generate leverage, angle and power generation that is different than mechanics of a jab. But that's just me being particular :)
 
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JowGaWolf

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If my opponent uses

- hooks, I'll use "rhino guard" to protect my center from inside out.
- jab/cross, I'll use "double spears" to protect my center from outside in.

I don't care much one way or another.
What do you use to defend against hooks targeting the body?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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What do you use to defend against hooks targeting the body?
When my opponent does that, his head will be exposed. That's the opportunity that I have tried to create all the time. If his body punch doesn't kill me, since my rhino guard are so close to his head, I'll get him a head lock, bend his spine side way, cut his major rooting leg, take him down, and end the striking game right there.

 
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wckf92

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I don't think either one has a real advantage. The hook can counter the jab and the jab can counter the hook. However, the hook will be more lethal than the jab. Hooks tend to land on the side of the head and on the back of the head. Hooks are also multi-directional (multi-angle) punches and have a tendency to travel in and out of the human's field of vision. We can look at professional fights of many systems and see just how devastating the hooks can be. I think I rather fight someone who is good at throwing jabs than to fight someone who is good with throwing hooks. It's just easier to analyze the punching path of Jab in comparison to the punching path of a hook, that may or may not land on your face, the back of your head, or on your kidneys.

Keep in mind my willingness to deal with the jab over the hook is 100% based on my ability to handle one better than the other. It could be totally different for someone who is excellent with defending against hooks but not so much with defending against jabs in comparison.

Good discussion thus far Gents!

You bring up solid points JGW... but just curious if you have ever done any research into the rods and cones of the human eye? If not, it's interesting stuff.
 

JowGaWolf

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Good discussion thus far Gents!

You bring up solid points JGW... but just curious if you have ever done any research into the rods and cones of the human eye? If not, it's interesting stuff.
I've done tons of research into rods and cones, field of vision, visual behavior, pattern recognition, pattern behavior, visual reaction, and recently Magic (specifically the misdirection part). I try to understand more about the limitations and instinctive visual behaviors that we have as humans and how martial arts techniques exploits these elements. Like they say, "The eyes are the windows to the soul." Pattern Recognition and pattern behavior is my favorite. I teach a little of it and I always refer to it as "Programming the opponent."

There are a lot of Chinese weapons that exploit the vision and how the brain processes movement. Martial arts techniques in general exploit pattern recognition and behavior. Magic sounds crazy but Magicians understand visual behavior and brain response at an advanced level. They are kings of misdirection and interaction with people. The reason why their tricks work is because they already understand how you are going to react to what you see. They understand how the eyes and the brain is going to process the movements. They have an excellent since of timing. Street Magicians are really good at it. They capture the attention of the eyes and almost immediately put people into a state of tunnel vision.

You can see a lot of great misdirection and what I would call "programming" your opponent. He don't only know how to fight but he understands how his opponents will process what they see.


Here you can see him "program" his opponent
 

Kung Fu Wang

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The reason why their tricks work is because they already understand how you are going to react to what you see.
This is why you should attack first instead of waiting for your opponent to attack first.

- When your opponent attacks first and you respond, your opponent can take advantage on your respond.
- When you attack first and your opponent responds, you can take advantage on his respond.

You may say that you can also take advantage on your opponent's first attack. But the number of different ways that your opponent may attack can be a much larger number than the number of different ways that your opponent may respond to your attack. For example, if your opponent attacks you with a MT flying knee, if you have never trained that, you may not know how to take advantage on it.
 
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JowGaWolf

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This is why you should attack first instead of waiting for your opponent to attack first.
I'm fine either way. I can limit the types of attacks that most people do. Most people are going to only throw a limited set of strikes and you can pretty much tell how limited that's going to be simply by the stance a person takes or by their footwork. I'm not special because I can do this. I think most people can do the same, with the right training.

Like I know you'll probably try to Rhino me to death or grab my neck.. lol.
 

macher

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The MMA guy only uses hook punches. He didn't even throw one single jab or cross. This is the opposite of the WC approach. I have always believed that if

- A only throws hook punches and
- B only throws jab and cross,

A will have advantage over B. What do you guys think on this?

Hooks are harder to detect WITH footwork cause its a more compact punch with a lot of power.
 

Martial D

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When my opponent does that, his head will be exposed. That's the opportunity that I have tried to create all the time. If his body punch doesn't kill me, since my rhino guard are so close to his head, I'll get him a head lock, bend his spine side way, cut his major rooting leg, take him down, and end the striking game right there.


So last night after class I was talking with my instructor and happened to mention your rhino guard. I showed him that video you like to post, and after the initial reaction, we threw on some gloves and messed around with attack and defense sparring for a bit.

Couple questions.

First, have you ever actually tried this?

Second, if so, is your one and only goal to get the Thai plum? Because it seems like there are easier and safer ways to do this.

Couple observations.

It's a lot easier to watch one thing(your locked arms) than two things. Especially if that one thing isn't any threat. I found myself just doing target practice with round kicks to the body when it was my turn to fight normal, and getting hit more when it was my turn to be the rhino because parrying with two arms locked felt clunky and slow. It sorta worked against hooks I guess, but I'd rather have high cover.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Couple questions.

First, have you ever actually tried this?

Second, if so, is your one and only goal to get the Thai plum? Because it seems like there are easier and safer ways to do this.

Couple observations.

It's a lot easier to watch one thing(your locked arms) than two things. Especially if that one thing isn't any threat. I found myself just doing target practice with round kicks to the body when it was my turn to fight normal, and getting hit more when it was my turn to be the rhino because parrying with two arms locked felt clunky and slow. It sorta worked against hooks I guess, but I'd rather have high cover.
I have tried this with many guys from different MA systems. I always asked my opponent that if he can't punch my head within his initial 20 punches, he will have to pay me $1. Otherwise I will have to pay him $1. So far I have collected a lot of $1 bills and I have not given out any yet.

The main purpose of the "rhino guard" is to obtain a "head lock". In other words, you need to separate your opponent's arms away from his head. In fighting, if your head has strong protection, you will feel safe, relax, and you will have more courage too.

The "rhino guard" can be functioned as a rhino horn too. In training, you only hit on the chest. In fighting, you only hit on the face.


You are right, you don't need "rhino guard" to set up a "head lock". The "rhino guard" is used for the beginner, the "zombie arms - 2 stiff arms without big fist" is used for people with more experienced. As long as your hands can be close to your opponent's head, the moment that his head is exposed, you can move in.

Chang_zombie_guard.jpg

hiyCP7
 
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drop bear

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So last night after class I was talking with my instructor and happened to mention your rhino guard. I showed him that video you like to post, and after the initial reaction, we threw on some gloves and messed around with attack and defense sparring for a bit.

Couple questions.

First, have you ever actually tried this?

Second, if so, is your one and only goal to get the Thai plum? Because it seems like there are easier and safer ways to do this.

Couple observations.

It's a lot easier to watch one thing(your locked arms) than two things. Especially if that one thing isn't any threat. I found myself just doing target practice with round kicks to the body when it was my turn to fight normal, and getting hit more when it was my turn to be the rhino because parrying with two arms locked felt clunky and slow. It sorta worked against hooks I guess, but I'd rather have high cover.

And ironically from a grappling point of view you are open to getting double legged.

Which would be embarrassing if you were the grappler.
 

Martial D

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And ironically from a grappling point of view you are open to getting double legged.

Which would be embarrassing if you were the grappler.
Yes, this! We didn't do it long enough to get into takedowns(it was moire for a laugh, and it paid out well in that regard), but its like a body language statement saying.."here have some double unders. don't worry, its safe, because it's literally impossible for me to get them"
 

Martial D

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The "rhino guard" can be functioned as a rhino horn too. In training, you only hit on the chest. In fighting, you only hit on the face.


hiyCP7

Ahh, the old 'Hulk Hogan double axe handle"

The problem with that is broken fingers. I don't like broken fingers.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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And ironically from a grappling point of view you are open to getting double legged.

Which would be embarrassing if you were the grappler.
That's why you need to know how to counter a double legs. When your opponent uses both hands to attack your legs, his head will be exposed. Most of the time, you will end like this.


If A is good in head lock, and B is good in single leg (or double legs), who will win? IMO, it's 50-50. Old saying said, "If you are

- taller than your opponent, you use "upper body control" and attack his head.
- shorter than your opponent, you use "lower body control" and attack his leg/legs, or waist."

To attack from the top will always have the body weight advantage.

 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Yes, this! We didn't do it long enough to get into takedowns(it was moire for a laugh, and it paid out well in that regard), but its like a body language statement saying.."here have some double unders. don't worry, its safe, because it's literally impossible for me to get them"
The main point is you want to put your hands closer to your opponent's head (this is why you use stiff arms) than his hands from your leg/legs. When he shoots toward your leg/legs, since the distance between his hands to your leg/legs is farther away from the distance between your hands to his head, your hands will be able to reach to his head faster than his hands can reach to your leg/legs (assume you and your opponent have the same speed).

In wrestling, it's called to lead your opponent into the emptiness (or let him to kiss the dirt). When you have body weight on top of his neck, it's not a good place for him to be.

 
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