Leg Locks and self defense

[Hanzou]

Video about self defense applications for Leg locks;

Not the best sound quality, and I thought the first demonstration using the back mount wasn't very applicable for self defense. However, the open guard application was pretty solid.

So given they're strong self defense applications, why aren't leg locks more widely trained (even in grappling arts)? They're efficient, dangerous, and can be applied from a variety of positions.

 

[Juany118]

Video about self defense applications for Leg locks;

Not the best sound quality, and I thought the first demonstration using the back mount wasn't very applicable for self defense. However, the open guard application was pretty solid.

So given they're strong self defense applications, why aren't leg locks more widely trained (even in grappling arts)? They're efficient, dangerous, and can be applied from a variety of positions.

I think it is two fold. The first is noted in your own premise they are more dangerous than other maneuvers, both for the person attempting to apply it and the one on the receiving end. Second, while I haven't studied a grappling focused art in years, those that I did study, at least in the way they were taught to me, also had in mind the ability to disengage rapidly if necessary and the maneuver makes rapid disengagement, not impossible, but more problematic.

Finally I believe that it could be, in terms of actual self defense application it is of limited value, from a legal and practical standpoint. In terms of legal...

In a real self defense situation you are not going for a submission, you are looking to end a threat. You can end the threat via that maneuver depending on what other techniques you apply along side it/how far you go, but intention choking out another person could easily be seen as disproportionate use of force if you were only addressing a misdemeanor assault as it has the risk of of death or permanent disablement. If you applied other locks and a joint was broken the same concept could apply.

In terms of practicality...

1. In say a bar fight type scenario your opponent's friends, if they have them, are coming to his aid and you are now rather vulnerable to them, and if you go to disengage you have the issue I note above.

2. Unless you are VERY skilled at it applying it in the chaos of a real fight in and of itself is problematic.

That all said I do actually see the benefit of training in it, even if only to understand the mechanics of it so you can avoid/escape it as the still growing popularity of MMA means it could be used against you. That said not that many instructors teach things with that perspective in mind and if they aren't training it with the specific intent of use, sometimes they don't train it. /Shrug.

 

[Danny T]

I feel it is because most grappling arts today are trained for competition and utilizes competition rules for training. Only the more advanced levels allow leg locks. For the average person learning some fight back self defense actions the amount of time it takes to become proficient enough to utilize them in a high stress situation makes them inefficient and not effective.
Those in the grappling arts should be able to utilize them after training and developing the skill set required. Only then will they be effective.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Most people don't practice leg locks because they don't know how to do them effectively.

Many grapplers don't use them (or underuse them) because they are training for sport competition and the rules they compete under either don't allow leg locks or don't allow them until certain belt levels or have other rules limiting their effectiveness (IBJJF no reaping rule).

I love log locks, but they wouldn't be my preferred options in a self-defense situation because they do involve tangling yourself up with an opponent which can make it difficult to disengage quickly. That said, I do have some entries into leg locks which are applicable for that context when I'm already entangled with someone and stuck on the bottom. For example, I frequently hit leg locks while in the process of escaping full mount. In that situation, I'm already in a place where it would be difficult to just quickly disengage. Might as well break my opponent's leg on my way out.

 

[Hanzou]

Thanks for the responses everyone.

That said, I do have some entries into leg locks which are applicable for that context when I'm already entangled with someone and stuck on the bottom. For example, I frequently hit leg locks while in the process of escaping full mount. In that situation, I'm already in a place where it would be difficult to just quickly disengage. Might as well break my opponent's leg on my way out.

Same here, which is why I was curious as to why they're not more widely taught. For example, my favorite leg lock was an ankle lock when my opponent attempts to stand within my guard. I would think something like that would have fairly good self defense value in that particular situation because I can imagine plenty of scenarios where someone is going to attempt to break your guard by standing up.

 

[Chris Parker]

Video about self defense applications for Leg locks;

Not the best sound quality, and I thought the first demonstration using the back mount wasn't very applicable for self defense. However, the open guard application was pretty solid.

So given they're strong self defense applications, why aren't leg locks more widely trained (even in grappling arts)? They're efficient, dangerous, and can be applied from a variety of positions.

What, in all of that, has anything to do with self defence? Personally, I think the real issue is the lack of understanding and insight into exactly what self defence is like… as the set-ups there simply aren't very related to self defence at all… they're all about "fighting"… which is fairly different.

In the end, leg locks aren't looked at much in most self defence approaches as, well, they're of highly limited value.

 

[Hanzou]

What, in all of that, has anything to do with self defence? Personally, I think the real issue is the lack of understanding and insight into exactly what self defence is like… as the set-ups there simply aren't very related to self defence at all… they're all about "fighting"… which is fairly different.

In the end, leg locks aren't looked at much in most self defence approaches as, well, they're of highly limited value.

So you're saying that there's never a self defense situation where someone is on top attempting to hit you or control you?

 

[Chris Parker]

No, I'm saying that the video itself, the situation it's dealing with, and it's concepts aren't self defence, as they're more in the mindset of "fighting". When looking at self defence, one of the primary goals is to look at the lowest risk, highest return methods for the most common eventualities. This game of "but it could happen!" is actually not what is required, or even overly beneficial when it comes to self defence. In this regard, it comes down to starting with HAOV… and, when you look at that, you start to realise that, frankly, this is not an overly "self defence" situation at all. I mean, you can play this game until it becomes "but what if a gorilla escapes from the zoo, and holds your family hostage with a bazooka!"

HAOV first… most common assault patterns and methods… reducing risk… simple, uncomplicated responses… and an emphasis on get up and get away. The type of situation in the video is of two people fighting each other… not one assaulting the other.

This is the issue with basing a self defence understanding on the technical methods of a sporting context. For one thing, you start to have the idea (that BJJ practitioners often do) that the technique is actually what's important… so they're always looking for the latest, best technique… you also have the situation where the only context that violence is understood is in a match-fight… which brings the assumption that that's what self defence situations look like (they don't).

So, could it happen? Maybe… but it's unlikely. Frankly, most assaults would be over before this position even came into it.

 

[drop bear]

For me it is because most of the ones I know I would have to jump off a position where I can hit someone to go for the lock. There are very few that advance position.

The rear naked defence everyone should know and is easy if the guy is dumb enough to try to cross their feet. There is one for the body triangle as well.

I also use a figure 4 leg lock specifically for self defence. If I am the third guy to jump on someone and I m looking for a body part to grab.

 

[Chris Parker]

If you are the third guy to jump on someone, it's not self defence.

Seriously. I'm not sure how many times we can tell you that bouncing is not the same thing…

 

[drop bear]

If you are the third guy to jump on someone, it's not self defence.

Seriously. I'm not sure how many times we can tell you that bouncing is not the same thing…

I can be the 20th guy to jump on someone and it could be self defence.

But self defence isn't really anything in terms of martial arts. It is a legal defence to a charge of causing injury or death. So we should know what self defence is in case we are charged with an assault. But otherwise trying to bang on about whether a leg lock is self defence or not is just silly.

It is if it is part of a legal defence to causing injury or death.

So most people yourself included misuse the concept of self defence to apply to a basic martial arts idea Which is fine unless you are lecturing people on some sort of semantic difference to make yourself look better.

So. It is not self defence we use. But defence against assault.
And tied on to that use of force and a few other issues here and there.
There is no real difference between the force used as a security guard and force used by anybody else. Except some liquor licence stuff. Otherwise it the same.

Here is the crimes act for you to read.
CRIMES ACT 1900 - SECT 418 Self-defence-when available

 

[Hanzou]

No, I'm saying that the video itself, the situation it's dealing with, and it's concepts aren't self defense, as they're more in the mindset of "fighting".

Wait, if you agree that there are self defense situations where an assailant can end up on top of you trying to punch you or control you, then the video IS dealing with a possible self defense situation.

 

[marques]

I like leg locks. Just avoiding it now because the/ my position(s) for leg locks doesn't give (me) good alternatives it case it fails... neither for other locks, neither for striking.
Maybe this is a reason it is not used more often.

 

[Hanzou]

I like leg locks. Just avoiding it now because the/ my position(s) for leg locks doesn't give (me) good alternatives it case it fails... neither for other locks, neither for striking.
Maybe this is a reason it is not used more often.

Check out guys like Ryan Hall, Rousimar Palhares, Eddie Cummings, Gary Tonnen, and several others. There's plenty of transitions from leg locks if they fail.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Wait, if you agree that there are self defense situations where an assailant can end up on top of you trying to punch you or control you, then the video IS dealing with a possible self defense situation.

True - but the possible self-defense situations where a leg lock is your best option are relatively unlikely. For that reason leg locks are pretty far down the list of techniques I would teach from a pure self-defense standpoint.

I like leg locks. Just avoiding it now because the/ my position(s) for leg locks doesn't give (me) good alternatives it case it fails... neither for other locks, neither for striking.
Maybe this is a reason it is not used more often.

Leg locks work best when they are part of an integrated system for controlling an opponent where one move naturally leads to another. If you are treating them as individual techniques that don't connect to the rest of your game, they will be much less effective for you.

 

[drop bear]

Human weapon MCmap did a SD one. I would have said it was a bit ambitious.

 

[marques]

Leg locks work best when they are part of an integrated system for controlling an opponent where one move naturally leads to another. If you are treating them as individual techniques that don't connect to the rest of your game, they will be much less effective for you.

I don't treat them as isolate. Yet, I cannot move to the next naturally... I've been training little to nothing on the ground. It may explain many things.
After all, I believe other 'positions' are better. At least for less fluent ground fighters that prefer to be in position to strike body and head...

 

[Charlemagne]

If you are the third guy to jump on someone, it's not self defence.

I respectfully disagree. Also, I bet these guys would disagree, and so would the people who had their lives saved by them.
Obama thanks train attack heroes

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I don't treat them as isolate. Yet, I cannot move to the next naturally

One thing that helps is to recognize and seek out control positions where the opponent's leg is isolated and he can't attack you. Once you reach one of those control positions you have a lot of options for setting up attacks.

 

[drop bear]

One thing that helps is to recognize and seek out control positions where the opponent's leg is isolated and he can't attack you. Once you reach one of those control positions you have a lot of options for setting up attacks.

For SD you generally need an entry and an exit.