I don't know how the statistic came about, but I can tell you it's a business ploy. It's how instructors sell different programs...by pitching you on privates. A basic business strategy is to try and go for the max amount you can get, and then move down to the next lowest program.
Learn 7-17x faster with private lessons?
- Thread starter Q-Man
- Start date
I don't know how the statistic came about, but I can tell you it's a business ploy. It's how instructors sell different programs...by pitching you on privates. A basic business strategy is to try and go for the max amount you can get, and then move down to the next lowest program.
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
That is the assumption being held to on this thread. The assumption of the model is that students CAN learn 7-17 times faster...
Yes. If people are interested in coming to our school to learn the Tracy System, privates are required.
No. In my town, the rates that we charge for our program are very similar to schools that teach only groups.
Doesn't really apply, but to give you an answer, but our group classes are workouts. There have been a few people who wanted to come in and just do groups and sparring and not pursue rank in the system.
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
LOL. There is no next lowest program as far as price is concerned. At least, not at my school.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
ahhhh ok so they can...... whats the point then?
I can drive 60 miles in 1 hour or 2 hours or 6 hours so?
Not meaning to sound sarcastic hear but I don't understand why you would want to train someone 7 to 17 times faster.
Actually then it kind of does apply then. If you do group lessons you then can't get rank is how it sounds. And if someone did come and say just wanted to work out and do only group lessons do they pay more, less, or the same as the private lesson student?
Also, I know this was discussed before but I do not remember the answer.
Private lessons how many hours a week are you talking?
Group lessons, how many hours a week?
Can some one just train private lessons from white belt to black?
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I will point out that this is not true in all Tracy schools.
My instructor does not use private lessons. Our group is small, so we tend to get fairly individual attention anyway, but there are not separate private lessons. The same was true in the school I trained with in the 1980s as well.
I think in the past, when my current instructor had a larger school, before I began studying with him, he probably did include private lessons.
I will also point out that under the three Tracy instructors that I have trained with between 1984 and now, the tuition was very very reasonable. The school I am in now is charging quite a bit less than most of the other martial arts schools in my area, I was actually surprised at how low it is. But he is not making his living by teaching martial arts. He has a day job like the rest of us, as did my prior teachers. Nobody has ever pressured me to buy any merchandise from Tracy Headquarters, of any kind. I did buy the curriculum reference outline, but that is it. No videos, nothing else, and I've never met someone who actually tried to learn the system from the videos. They are really meant to be a reference tool for people who have actually learned the material for real.
I don't know what financial relationship exists between Tracy Headquarters and my instructors. My instructor has indicated that during the gas crisis in the 1970s, Al Tracy released all the Franchise schools so they could survive the financial lean times. So I guess nobody is paying franchise fees anymore. I was a kid during the 1970s, so I don't really remember what was happening during that time. Anyway, perhaps there is a membership fee that instructors pay or something, but honestly I don't know how it works, how much it is, or even if it exists at all. I have never been privy to that knowledge. But I don't think the instructors, nor Mr. Tracy, are getting wealthy off my tuition, it just isn't that much.
So for anyone trying to paint a picture of Tracy schools being all about high tuition and fees and selling materials and stuff to get rich off the students, it just has never been my experience. All kinds of martial arts schools try to do that. They have special clubs to rope in the kids, extra belt stripes to generate fees for testing and whatnot. I am sure every style has people who try to take advantage of every opportunity to make more money off their students. Maybe some people in Tracys do it as well, but I've never seen it.
Another thing my instructor has told me is that Al Tracy gets very very sensitive about any accusations that rank is ever bought or sold. He told me that the one time he ever witnessed Al actually strip somebody of rank, was when he found out the guy was charging testing fees. He absolutely forbids it among his affiliated schools. So whatever tuition program is set up by the school, there are no extra fees for rank testing. I haven't even seen my instructor charge students for the price of their new belt when he gives it to him. My wife has tested twice, and he's never asked us to reimburse him for the cost of the belts.
So, for what it's worth, not everything is about making money, or at least not everyone tries to capitalize on every possible money making opportunity. Sure, a martial arts school can be run as a successful business, many people do this for better or for worse. But not everyone pursues it in this way so just be careful about making blanket accusations about every school in an organization.
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
It is not a desire to train people faster. It is a desire to train people at whatever pace allows them to excel. As an instructor, I have experienced the gamut from people who could learn and retain the material of a belt in one day (no, before you ask, they did not have near the requisite skill required to test the material, but the retention was there) and I have had people take privates 5 days a week and still take longer than most to earn a new level of rank.
My school is not set up to teach the system through group lessons. I have never had someone wanting to do groups only, but I have had people wanting to do privates only. The exception is a student who finds himself unable to continue for financial reasons. I allow those students to continue attending the workouts until they can get back on their feet. I do not charge them for this.
1 half hour session each week is typical.
There are no group lessons. We do have family members that share a private lesson, so I guess that could be considered a group lesson. If you are speaking of group classes, then we offer 6 a week, one hour each. 7 if you count the children's class.
Yes. It is rare. There are people whose schedules do not fit into the group times. These people, if committed, will often be at the studio at other times of the day looking for partners to train with. Often, several will form their own "class" by meeting at the studio together to train.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
OK
At this point I am willing to admit I do not fully understand the point of "Learn 7-17x faster with private lessons" or how you or anyone can come up with the numbers "7-17". But I am also willing to say you have answered my questions and I am happy to leave it at that.
Like I said in the beginning I am a CMA guy and everything takes time in CMA also Im a MA dinosaur so that could be why I simply do not get the reasoning here.
I will leave this to the kenpo people
Thanks
My best
XS
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
Fair enough. Thanks. These were the same questions I asked of my instructor when I first entered his school after receiving the flyer in the mail. I have tried to explain it as best I can here, but I think you have to be (#1) be involved in the program, and (#2) have been involved in a different program to really understand it.
Our methods work quite well for thousands of people. Other methods work well for thousands of other people. At the end of the day, what matters is that my students find value in the best that I have to offer.
Danjo
Master Black Belt
So if the average time to black belt in Tracy's is 3 to 5 years, and the privates are required, and the privates make you learn 7-17x faster, then it means that without those privates it would take someone 21-51 years to get to black belt in Tracy's. Yikes that's a long time.
Monadnock
2nd Black Belt
If that was all there was to getting a black belt.
If it takes the average person 17 minutes to learn a block, and the private helps them to learn it in one minute, they are still learning it in the same day. So I guess there's no telling how much faster it will be to get to black belt in that school.
Private lessons generally help a student's finer understanding. I don't think it is a guarantee to BB quicker.
But I aint a Tracy guy, so I dunno...
I'm just plain confused... You say there are no group lessons, but there are group classes?
I know that individual instruction (I don't have scheduled private lessons, but I'm always happy to schedule a workout with students or classmates at a mutually convenient time) can be very beneficial for students. In a one-on-one setting, I can focus on a particular issue a student has, or I can give them a chance to work on something that just hasn't fit into the regular class material for some reason. But I don't get the "are system isn't set up to be taught without private lessons" idea.
Generally instruction of new material is always conducted in the private. Drilling, sparring, SD scenarios, etc are conducted in group classes. But that isn't "instruction," that is practicing what you are already learned in different ways.
Does that clarify? It does work quite well, we use a similar system, for us, we do a two hour group class, the last half hour is for individual material where each student learns specifically what they need. We have fairly small classes and something like 5 black belts in the class, so in essence every student gets a small 10 to 15 minute private lesson at every group class.
Lamont
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
That's not what I said. My school is not set up in such a way that we can teach the entire system in group classes. Some Tracy's instructors do it that way. I do not.
Lamont's post clarifies it pretty well.
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
Thanks. You seem to understand what I am trying to convey.
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
We're good so far...
not always, but let's see where you take it...
Dang. You were doing so well. I'll have to go back and read the actual statement, but I am pretty sure that privates making you learn 7-17 times faster is not there, nor is it implied.
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Uh, yeah it is. It doesn't say you can learn 3-5 times faster, or 1-2x faster. It posits 7 times faster as the minimum which implies that 7 times faster is the low end of how much faster you will learn if you take private lessons.
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
There you go making stuff up again. You keep inserting words like "make" and "will." There is a potential here of learning 7-17 times faster.
What it doesn't say or imply, Dan, is that with private lessons, one will learn faster, or that private lessons make one learn faster. Our program allows students to study at their own pace.
There are programs out there that have certain testing times. For example, one school in our town has tests 4 times a year. Students who learn faster than their peers have to wait until the whole class is ready. Students who are only slightly slower than their peers may miss one test, be ready two weeks later, and have to wait 3 months for the next test. And in those programs, those that are ready do not get to begin learning the newer material because they are not yet eligible for the "purple belt class" or whatever.
It is a program that has been successful for close to 40 years. Thousands of people have gone through it. The phrase in question has been around for a very long time.
OK, I get it now. Instruction is done in privates/very small groups, drill and practice is done regular group classes. It just wasn't real clear to me the difference you folks were drawing between instruction and practice.
This isn't meant as an attack on your system, or your training methods, so please don't take it that way.
But that justification doesn't hold much water. For many years, people were sure that bloodletting to let the bad humours out was good medical practice. Lots of people went through it, and quite a few survived. That doesn't mean they were right or it remains a good justification.
I think one-on-one instruction is very important, whether it's the instructor taking a few moments to correct a student during a group class, or in private training sessions. But I'd hesitate at any numerical claims about learning speed; there are just too many variables. Why not simply tell a student things like "we teach new material in the private sessions so that we can concentrate on you and make sure you understand it" or "private lessons allow us to concentrate on your particular needs more effectively"?
Danjo
Master Black Belt
But privates won't allow you to learn 2,3,4,5, or 6 times faster? It's either 7-17 or nothing? See that's the crux of this whole silly thing. Why not say that they can accelerate one's learning up to 17 times faster? That way, it gives no minimum. However, by starting the scale at 7 times faster, it is directly implying that this minimum level will occur with the introduction of private lessons. You're the one that said Al doesn't pull numbers out of thin air. Why does it start at 7?
The phrases "The Earth is flat" and "The Sun circles the Earth." had been around a long time also. That made them accurate how?
Also, you're the one that said that a black belt in 1.25 years wasn't too fast, and now you're back tracking saying that the students that are ready to test are arbitrarily held back for the slower students to be ready. That begs the question: "Why the privates then?" What is the benifit of learning faster if you just have to wait around for the rest of the slow-pokes anyways?
