Learn 7-17x faster with private lessons?

[Danjo]

Let's put this in perspective a bit. If it takes the average person 3 to 5 years to get to black belt, then it would take you as little as 64 to 107 days to get one with private lessons using the formula of 7-17 times faster. I think between 2 to five months is a bit quick even for the McDojos don't you?

The USSD sells private lessons at a very high price. IMO much higher than they are worth. Any benefit that they might give you is far outweighed by that. Plus, they are as often as not taught by one of the "Red Belts" rather than one of the black belts. How much benefit is there in that?

 

[Flying Crane]

Let's put this in perspective a bit. If it takes the average person 3 to 5 years to get to black belt, then it would take you as little as 64 to 107 days to get one with private lessons using the formula of 7-17 times faster. I think between 2 to five months is a bit quick even for the McDojos don't you?

yes, that is probably too fast, but it also assumes an inappropriate focus on RANK vs. actually learning something. I prefer to think of private lessons as a way to gain deeper and more precise understanding. This may include faster learning, but it also takes time for that learning to translate into physical skills. So while the intellectual learning could be 3 or 7 or 17 or 107 times as fast (i'm just making up numbers), it still takes time to develop the skill. I guess it's possible that rank progression could also be faster, but I think not all that much faster. As I stated, I think it's pretty difficult to attach real numbers to this. But it doesn't invalidate the value of private lessons, so long as they are done in an appropriate manner and the big picture is kept in perspective.

The USSD sells private lessons at a very high price. IMO much higher than they are worth. Any benefit that they might give you is far outweighed by that. Plus, they are as often as not taught by one of the "Red Belts" rather than one of the black belts. How much benefit is there in that?

I don't know much about the USSD, again as I stated, I don't have a dog in that race. I don't know what their business/teaching practices are, and I don't know if these practices are consistent among all of their schools. Maybe some incorporate questionable practices, maybe others don't, i dunno, don't really care.

I think the bottom line is that yes, private lessons can be beneficial and help a student learn more deeply and perhaps develop more quickly. I don't think you can attach real numbers to how fast that is. If the student perceives a value in the lessons, and is comfortable with the price, then they will do it. It's up to the individual to decide for himself. I don't see the point in going on a crusade against a specific group for what they may or may not be doing. If you don't like them, that's your choice as well, but arguing about it on the forums isn't going to change what they do.

I could go on a rampage and start dissecting all the self promotions that have happened within the greater kenpo community, and try to put every single one of the seniors under a microscope and try and hold them to task for it. How far do you think that's gonna get me? How long do you think I'm gonna remain welcome here in the forums? It doesn't matter to me, it's none of my business, and whatever I say about it will have no impact on any of them.

So choose your battles wisely and recognize when it isn't worth it and it doesn't matter.

 

[Xue Sheng]

But you can get a black belt in 7 to 10 business day from here
:uhyeah:

Private lessons do not necessarily increase the speed with which it takes to get a black belt or understand or become a master. It gives you one on one time with your teacher (hopefully) and if that teacher is good at teaching and you (the student) are good at understanding and at the point you are ready to understand it MIGHT speed things up a little bit but not 7 to 17 times faster.

I have had all of my Sanda in private lessons and on occasion my taiji sifu asks me to wait until after everyone leaves and he shows me some things as well. But, as far as Sanda goes I could have private lessons for the next 20 years but if I do not go home a train afterwards of thing about what I was taught or what was said those private lessons are fairly useless. Same goes for my Taiji sifu. I can remember my taiji sifu stopping me and showing me something to do with the form and asking me if I understand, he did this 3 times and I still did not understand. Years later in discussions with him he said sometimes the student is not ready and does not have enough understanding of the form, posture, or style to make any sense of what is being shown to them. But if they keep training eventually it will make sense. 2 years later, (now 10 years ago) that little tidbit of information all of a sudden made sense.

Private lessons are great if the teacher is good and if the student is serious. But if a student approaches private lessons like a short cut to mastery then they will likely never get there and if the teacher is not good at teaching or lacks the knowledge to teach things properly, again it is very likely the student will never attain anything of worth.

Consider Xingyiquan; most real teachers of Xingyi are going to make you stand in Santi Shi for at least 20 minutes per side and THEN call you a beginner. How do you speed that up in private lessons :idunno:

 

[Josh Oakley]

When I worked at a used car lot as a detailer, we had a running joke about how each salesman would invariably utter the phrase, "I was thinking of buying that one myself." Every time a person was considering one of the least desirable cars on the lot. The point is, that because they were in charge of selling something two things were true: 1) They couldn't be trusted for an objective opinion on the cars they were selling and 2) It was their job to try to find the desirable qualities in a given car and pump those things up. "Just look at that interior!" was a favorite for a car that didn't really run very well, or one that had 150,000 miles on it.

By strapping on a red belt in your organization, you've become a salesman of private lessons. You've been trained to point out their value to the customers and you probably even believe most of what you say about their value (which is innately subjective BTW since "value" equals the point when what one person is willing to charge meets what the other is willing to pay). As a salesman, your testimony regarding these private lessons is automatically suspect. No offense is meant toward you. I am merely pointing out a fact and saying that one would hold your opinion with higher esteem if you weren't in charge of selling these things by your organization. Hence, the ad hominem argument, in this case is valid.

Despite the fact I was saying this stuff a year and a half ago when I was a student? And I could agree with you if I were actually trying to sell you or anyone else on this forum. Very few of you even live in my state, many of you are well above me in rank. And those who aren't are already practicing martial artists. I'd be a pretty lousy "salesman of private lessons" if I were actually trying to sell in this group.

But hey, sure, let's just automatically discount anything anyone says because they sell it. There goes the oppinion of any martial arts instructor on this forum, if they teach for pay, because their claim is automatically suspect based on their vocation. Are we holding this true for every instructor getting paid to teach, or just the USSD?

But again. Who exactly would I be selling to on this forum? You? John Bishop? Doc Chapel? WHO? Because it would be really stupid of me to put that I'm a red belt in my profile if that were the case. Especially If I were to post on a site with so many people who had bad experiences with USSD and think we charge too much as it is. Heck, might as well not post an oppinion on anything, now that I'm a red belt.

C'mon, man. There's prudence, and then there's paranoia.

 

[KenpoDave]

Is it your position that private lessons don't hold value? Or are you really taking issue with Josh's connection to USSD?

Ahh, the real point of Dan's argument comes to the surface...

 

[KenpoDave]

Let's put this in perspective a bit. If it takes the average person 3 to 5 years to get to black belt, then it would take you as little as 64 to 107 days to get one with private lessons using the formula of 7-17 times faster. I think between 2 to five months is a bit quick even for the McDojos don't you?

Since we are talking perspective, remember that in the model, Tracy's Kenpo, it is one private each week, and unlimited groups. So, 107 private lessons is 2 years and 3 weeks of training. 64 privates is 1 year, 3 months.

We are not talking private lessons every day. So for perspective, if the average person, attending two group classes a week, can make it in 3-5 years, why it it "pure BS" to claim that the addition of a private each week can shorten that span to 1.25-2 years?

 

[Danjo]

Since we are talking perspective, remember that in the model, Tracy's Kenpo, it is one private each week, and unlimited groups. So, 107 private lessons is 2 years and 3 weeks of training. 64 privates is 1 year, 3 months.

We are not talking private lessons every day. So for perspective, if the average person, attending two group classes a week, can make it in 3-5 years, why it it "pure BS" to claim that the addition of a private each week can shorten that span to 1.25-2 years?

1.25 years to black belt in Tracy's? Hey, whatever works for your organization is whatever works for your organization. But 7 times faster would be .71 years according to that formula.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm wondering if I buy a Kenpo training DVD and play it at 30X, willl I learn 30 times faster :uhyeah:

OK, I'll go now

 

[Blindside]

We are not talking private lessons every day. So for perspective, if the average person, attending two group classes a week, can make it in 3-5 years, why it it "pure BS" to claim that the addition of a private each week can shorten that span to 1.25-2 years?

Doing the math says reducing 3 to 1.25 is 2.4 times as fast, 5 to 2 is 2.5 times as fast, not exactly the claimed 7-17 times. I agree that privates accellerate the learning process, the number of 7-17 is just silly though.

Lamont

 

[KenpoDave]

Doing the math says reducing 3 to 1.25 is 2.4 times as fast, 5 to 2 is 2.5 times as fast, not exactly the claimed 7-17 times. I agree that privates accellerate the learning process, the number of 7-17 is just silly though.

Lamont

It all depends on whether you are talking number of classes, number of days, or number of years.

See, none of you has likely contacted Al Tracy to find out how he came up with those numbers. You assume he is wrong/lying/silly/full of it. Statistics, frankly, can say many different things and still be right. Perhaps you should call him.

 

[Danjo]

It all depends on whether you are talking number of classes, number of days, or number of years.

See, none of you has likely contacted Al Tracy to find out how he came up with those numbers. You assume he is wrong/lying/silly/full of it. Statistics, frankly, can say many different things and still be right. Perhaps you should call him.

It's up to him to defend the statement with evidence since he made it in the first place. It's not up to us to hunt him down and find out how he figured it out. Since you're one of the Tracy students, why don't you ask him for us and then come back and share the info?

 

[KenpoDave]

It's up to him to defend the statement with evidence since he made it in the first place.

To whom? He doesn't read these boards. He does answer his e-mails and phone calls. Unless he is approached, there is nothing for him to defend. But, using the same argument, I would like to see some evidence from the folks who claim that it can't/is not being done, is BS, is silly, etc...evidence that shows that it cannot be done.

It's not up to us to hunt him down and find out how he figured it out.

Of course not. Unless you want the answer. But it's so much more fun to just talk about it.

Since you're one of the Tracy students, why don't you ask him for us and then come back and share the info?

I did. I came up with 6.6-19 times faster. Rounding would make it 7-19 times faster, which actually puts Mr. Tracy's numbers a little conservative. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=851367&postcount=15

 

[Blindside]

I did. I came up with 6.6-19 times faster. Rounding would make it 7-19 times faster, which actually puts Mr. Tracy's numbers a little conservative. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=851367&postcount=15

Your math is.... odd.

2 hours of group training at 4.3 wks/month at 60 months = 516 hours of training. We'll use this as the arbitrary baseline "time of training required" for black.

2 hours of group training + 1 .5 hr private/wk at 36 months = 387 hours training = 1.3x as fast as baseline

2 hours of group training + 1 .5 hr private/wk at 22 months (your time) = 236 hours training = 2.2 times as fast as baseline

2 hours of group training + 1 .5 hr private/wk at 12 months = 129 hours of training = 4x as fast as baseline.

Increasing the number of private lessons just increases the number of training hours and reduces the number of multipliers of effectiveness of the private lesson. So again, I don't buy the 7-17x number.

Lamont

 

[KenpoDave]

Your math is.... odd.

2 hours of group training at 4.3 wks/month at 60 months = 516 hours of training. We'll use this as the arbitrary baseline "time of training required" for black.

2 hours of group training + 1 .5 hr private/wk at 36 months = 387 hours training = 1.3x as fast as baseline

2 hours of group training + 1 .5 hr private/wk at 22 months (your time) = 236 hours training = 2.2 times as fast as baseline

2 hours of group training + 1 .5 hr private/wk at 12 months = 129 hours of training = 4x as fast as baseline.

Increasing the number of private lessons just increases the number of training hours and reduces the number of multipliers of effectiveness of the private lesson. So again, I don't buy the 7-17x number.

Lamont

Well, our math is different because you have added two hours a week of group instruction. In a strict sense, that does not really apply to the model, but that is OK. It has become obvious that most don't understand the model, and are not really even trying to. And that is fine. The numbers are based on a model and applied to a system that most of you don't teach. It may not apply to EPAKK or Kajukenbo. But it is true...students CAN learn 7-17 times faster. I have seen it. I have done it.

The goal here, apparently, is to use this statement to make claims about Al Tracy. Big surprise there. But business is his thing. His business model is tried and true.

 

[KenpoDave]

Your math is.... odd.

2 hours of group training at 4.3 wks/month at 60 months = 516 hours of training. We'll use this as the arbitrary baseline "time of training required" for black.

2 hours of group training + 1 .5 hr private/wk at 36 months = 387 hours training = 1.3x as fast as baseline

2 hours of group training + 1 .5 hr private/wk at 22 months (your time) = 236 hours training = 2.2 times as fast as baseline

2 hours of group training + 1 .5 hr private/wk at 12 months = 129 hours of training = 4x as fast as baseline.

Increasing the number of private lessons just increases the number of training hours and reduces the number of multipliers of effectiveness of the private lesson. So again, I don't buy the 7-17x number.

Lamont

Using your numbers and removing your assumption:

1 .5 hr private/wk at 36 months = 77 hours of training = 6.7x as fast as baseline.
1 .5 hr private/wk at 12 months = 26 hours of training = 19.8x as fast as baseline.

Remember, privates are instructional, groups are workouts. Now, if you choose to call them instructional, that is fine. Should we include studying the manuals and watching videos as instructional time as well? What about workouts at home? Unsupervised mat time at the dojo? Tips from masters on the internet?

Anyway, I have explained the model and shown the numbers. It is what it is. And everyone is still ignoring that all important word in the phrase that I pointed out way back at the beginning...

 

[Blindside]

Using your numbers and removing your assumption:

1 half hour a week at 36 months equals 77.4 hours of training. 6.6 times as fast as the baseline.

Remember, privates are instructional, groups are workouts.

Actually, if you remove that assumption, then no one in the baseline model ever gets black because they never get instruction. You can't call the baseline of group classes to be the equivelent of X numbers of private lessons, then only include private lessons in the comparison models. That is fuzzy math at its finest, I have no problem with Al Tracy, we are a Tracy lineage school, we instruct through a similar model. I am only questioning the oddball math.

Lamont

 

[Danjo]

our math is different.

There's a slogan for your organization.

 

[Flying Crane]

There's a slogan for your organization.

Danjo,

you seem to have issues with several kenpo organizations, and perhaps orgs from other arts as well, for all I know. I suggest you take your issues to the heads of those orgs yourself and see if you can get the answers that will make you happy. Argue with them if they are willing to tolerate you, if it's so important to you, rather than bitching about them here on the forums. I don't think your happiness and satisfaction are high on the list of priorities for too many people here. They have been willing to indulge your questions and give you the benefit of the doubt, but at some point it seems like your real purpose is to just pick at things until they fester, in hopes of stirring up some controversy for the sake of controversy.

If you've got some legitimate questions, fair enough. But comments like this one illustrate your immaturity and underscore your true motives. Grow up, sir.

 

[Danjo]

Danjo,

you seem to have issues with several kenpo organizations, and perhaps orgs from other arts as well, for all I know. I suggest you take your issues to the heads of those orgs yourself and see if you can get the answers that will make you happy. Argue with them if they are willing to tolerate you, if it's so important to you, rather than bitching about them here on the forums. I don't think your happiness and satisfaction are high on the list of priorities for too many people here. They have been willing to indulge your questions and give you the benefit of the doubt, but at some point it seems like your real purpose is to just pick at things until they fester, in hopes of stirring up some controversy for the sake of controversy.

If you've got some legitimate questions, fair enough. But comments like this one illustrate your immaturity and underscore your true motives. Grow up, sir.

Relax. That last one was just me being a smartass.

 

[SL4Drew]

I did. I came up with 6.6-19 times faster. Rounding would make it 7-19 times faster, which actually puts Mr. Tracy's numbers a little conservative. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=851367&postcount=15

From what I read, you said that most make black in 3 years, which amounts to 156 private half hour lessons. The way I am reading that is in 78 total hours of instruction, someone can achieve a black belt level of competency. If that's the ONLY time a student puts into it, I frankly don't see how that's possible. It seems like it falls to the student to do significant training outside of that time. As a result, I'm having a hard time with this hard division between instruction time and practice/training time. I really don't see how they can be so divided.

In my experience, the average person can't accept 'downloads' of information. Kenpo isn't simply a mental exercise, the student has to physically perform. I can tell the student what I want and maybe watch the student do it a few times, but until that muscle memory hardens, the student can do all manner of things to screw it up. So if I want them to perform things in a specific and precise manner, in my experience, most students require more than you show them a couple of times and move on to the next thing, which you show a couple of times and move on, and so on. They may conceptually get it in a few seconds, but most take more than a few reps to get it right.

In other activities such as football, basketball, golf, gymnastics, and the like, the trainer/coach is doing more than downloading information, they are supervising performance. They make little adjustments and corrections throughout. Here, you're talking hundreds of techniques and dozens of forms/sets/kata, then add to that basics and perhaps sparring. Then consider making adjustments for supposedly higher levels of skill. I just don't see how 78 hours is near enough to coach an average someone off the street to a relatively high level of proficiency.