lack of respesct

[Manny]

Last night I had a bad conversation with a kenpo brown belt, I am not going to tell you all the details cause this will be a very long post, the thing is this guy lacks humility.

Hugo is 20 years old brown belt and wants to do his black belt test but he is not ready, last september he went into a bar fight (he was intoxicaded) and ended in the floor with his face with cuts because one of the other guys (yes Hugo was kinda of drunk and wanted to fight with three or four guys) smashed a glass and beat him severily. Since last september Hugo has coming dojo oinly 4 or 5 times to train and he's not ready.

But well, Hugo got mad at told me I am no one to tell if he is or not ready for his black belt examination, I told Hugo that I am not his sensei and I am only a yellow belt in Kenpo but... I am older than he and I have a black belt in TKD and know when somebody is ready or not and I deserve to be traeted respectful not only for my rank (1st Dan Black belt) but by my age.

This guy got mad, and told me my TKD rank is nothing so I told him that a truly black belt treats with respect even lower ranks and does not matter what kind of martial arts one trains we always have to have humility to ourselves and the others. Even I am a black belt in TKD I must to be polite and humble with other black belts no matter they are judokas,karatekas or aikidokas for example.

I got pretty mad when somebady try to discard us takwondoings saying that a black belt in TKD is not big deal compared other martial arts.

Let me tell you I was alwyas cool and never was unpolite to this young fellow, the only points I told him were: he has not the humility and character to wear a black belt, that he needs to improve and polish his technikes,prepare himself very good and always be polite.

Am I wrong?

Manny

 

[dancingalone]

You were both wrong in my opinion, Manny.

Clearly Hugo has some maturity issues and he shouldn't be allowed to test for shodan if he is so unkind and disrespectful to anyone in the dojo, even a newcomer like yourself. That said, you are a chodan only in your TKD dojang. Unless your kenpo teacher has said otherwise, Hugo is senior to you in the kenpo training hall, and it was inappropriate for you to offer your opinion about his readiness to take a dan or not. Any criticism even in the form of a gentle suggestion should come from his teacher and his seniors.

Finally, I'm a big believer in emptying one's cup. Although I hold a higher rank in karate and have been training longer in the martial arts than many deshi in my wife's aikido dojo, I am nonetheless junior to them in aikido strictly by rank. I act accordingly and offer proper deference, even when I can execute certain techniques better because I have trained longer.

Dojo etiquette exists to avoid sticky circumstances like this one. Defer to the sensei in all things and focus on the training rather than any drama that Hugo offers. It's likely that the teacher understands many of Hugo's flaws already - it's up to him to work with Hugo to better himself rather than yourself.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Hugo would've been kicked out of my dojo when he started the bar fight.

Manny, do you know the significance of the symbolism contained within the Kenpo Crest?

1. THE TIGER — represents earthly strength derived during the early stages of learning. This is the stage where the individual is more impressed with his own physical prowess.

2. THE DRAGON — represents spiritual strength which comes with seasoning. This mental attitude is attained during the individual’s later years of training. It is placed above earthly strength (as indicated and observed on the patch) since the individual at this stage has learned to develop humility and self restraint.


The attitude of the Dragon is the ultimate goal of KENPO. Armed with this attitude an individual will not be afraid of the opponent but of what he can do to the opponent. Thus he turns his back and walks away from an unwarranted conflict confident that he could have been the victor.

3. THE CIRCLE — is symbolic of several things: (1) It depicts life itself, a continuous cycle where there is no beginning nor end. So is it with the art of KENPO, it too is a cycle of perpetual and unending movement or motion. Techniques follow a cycle, movements are a part of a cycle, physical prowess, humility and self restraint are no more than components of a progressive learning cycle; (2) All moves evolve from a circle whether they are offensive or defensive; (3) The circle represents the bond of friendship that should continuously exist among all who practice the art ; and (4) The circle is the base from which our alphabet stems.

4. THE DIVIDING LINES — in the circle represents: (1) the original eighteen hand movements—directions in which the hands can travel; (2) They are the angles from which an opponent or you can attack or defend; and (3) it forms the pattern in which the feet too can travel—explanation of the Universal Pattern will clarify this.

5. THE COLORS — represents proficiency, achievement and authority. The circle is GRAY because it is symbolic of the brain— since the brain has always been referred to as GRAY matter. The WHITE background is significant of the many beginners who form the base of the Art. The YELLOW and ORANGE represents the first level of proficiency—the mechanical stage—the dangerous stage in learning where the student is more impressed with the physical who, like the freshman in college, thinks he knows all of the answers. BROWN, the color of the Tiger's eyes, represents the advanced students though not in great number. Also at this level the student becomes more observant. His eyes, like that of the Tiger, are keen, ever so watchful and critical, always looking up to the higher levels of proficiency, striving for perfection, preparing for the day he bares the level of an expert. This level of expert proficiency is represented by the color BLACK. RED is that of professorship over and above BLACK but yet, as indicated by the colors of the Dragon, there are still traces of WHITE in the Dragon's eyeball, YELLOW or ORANGE on the Dragon's fins, BROWN in the iris of the eyeball, and BLACK in the pupils of the eyeball. This is to remind even the Professor that he too should always be so humble and be able to go back to any level, whatever it might be, and perform the things that he expects of others at these levels so as never to demand too much of his students.

6. THE ORIENTAL WRITING — is a reminder of the originators of our Art—the Chinese. It is in respect to them but not that we serve them. The lettering to the right means KENPO KARATE—Law of the Fist and the Empty Hand—the art that we practice. To the left it means Spirit of the Dragon and the Tiger—a constant reminder that we want to attain the spiritual level and that the physical level is only a stepping stone or vehicle, that we use to reach the higher or spiritual level.

7. THE SHAPE — The TOP of the crest is like a roof which gives shelter to all who are under it. The SIDES )( are curved conversely because, like the roof of a Chinese home, it is to send evil back to where it came from, whenever it tries to descend. The BOTTOM forms the shape of an axe—it represents the executioner—in the event a member is influenced by evil ideas and thoughts contrary to our philosophy, or shames the art or organization, he is cut off, never to coexist with us again.

 

[granfire]

Well, on one hand manny is right, on the other hand Hugo has a tiny point.

In the Kenpo Dojo the TKD rank has little consequence.

other than that, I think I would have laughed a Hugo....

Getting drunk is frowned upon our American based organization (rules state it, can't even have a bottle in the desk drawer...smoking is a nono, too)

Picking a fight in the bar would/could actually get your rank revoked

and we stress respect. As higher belt to lower ones, as younger person to older.


So just from the character point of view, I'd have to say, manny is on the right track, not BB material. The techniques I could not evaluate if I saw this gentleman.


And then I'd laugh some more ad Hugo, telling him he was doggone lucky to just be beat up a little...and not killed!

I know, not respectful at all, but some instances warrant it!

 

[spinny]

Manny, based on your side of the story you are correct in assessing that Hugo lacks many of the qualities of a black belt.

However, Hugo is correct that your TKD rank does not entitle you to voice your opinion concerning Kenpo.

Perhaps you should make sure the instructor knows about Hugo's issues — but not your opinion on what he should do about it.

 

[Twin Fist]

Hugo is 20

at 20 you are SUPPOSED to be an arrogant jerk.

Manny, consider the source, then walk away.

it aint worth loosing your calm.

 

[d1jinx]

Actually Manny, You were wrong.

What you should have done is not say a word about your TKD BB. You should have proudly wore your Yellow belt and had a sparring session with him. Then after you wooped his but, ask him "What kind of Black Belt lets a Yellow Belt whipe the floor with his face.... You are not even close to being a Black belt.... Go put a white belt back on!"

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

 

[terryl965]

Manny being a BB in one art does not give us the right to question higher ranking belts in other arts, sorry but I do not expect a grappler to come in and believe he knows about kicking and vise versa. I know you was not trying to be a snob but you may have come off that way, that is you know everything and he knows nothing.

 

[StudentCarl]

In response to one above, NO, that is not how 20 year olds are supposed to act. Arrogance has no place in a real martial artist at any age, especially one who aspires to dan rank.

Manny, I've done similar things when dealing with annoying people, and I'm in my 40s. Sometimes it's hard to hold your tongue with someone younger whose cup is overflowing. Did getting upset and saying what you did change anything, or was his cup too full to hear you? If you could do it over would you perhaps choose to walk by knowing that the world will be his firm teacher.

I do hope your sensei is aware of this student's issues, but find it hard to believe that any sensei would not be.

Best wishes.

 

[Manny]

Thank yopu very much to all mis amigos here for your coments. Yes I was wrong about about telling Hugo he is not prepared for his black belt examination that was error number 1 on me, error number 2 was not knocking off the discusion in the early moments. I Think I must apologize to Hugo for this.

In the other hand is clear that Hugo lacks humility but well..... he's just a kid or behaves just like a kid.

I really apreciate Hugo, when I knew he was at home resting and healing from his injures of the bar brawl I was worried about him, not phisically but emotionally, I really not believed what our sensei told me cause Hugo is.... just a kid and I could not pictured him drunk in a bar and fighting with more than three guys for stupid things. I could feel the the way Hugo feelt those days, wondering what went wrong.

I want Hugo to overcome all the troubles he have and wish him a good black belt test and pass it with flying colours believe me, so I was trying to make him understad he must train regulary and to improve his techs.

About rank I want to let you know that all MA practiciones deserves my respect even the lower ranks, I treat all black belts no matter what MA they practice with honor and respect, no matter Kenpo, no matter Judo, No matter capoeira, etc. and that's the way I like to be treated.

Hugos fault was to be so young and reckless, my fault was to try to educate him, I am not his father and I am not his sensei, I am a grown up man who cares about him, that-s all.

Manny

 

[d1jinx]

Thank yopu very much to all mis amigos here for your coments. Yes I was wrong about about telling Hugo he is not prepared for his black belt examination that was error number 1 on me, error number 2 was not knocking off the discusion in the early moments. I Think I must apologize to Hugo for this.

In the other hand is clear that Hugo lacks humility but well..... he's just a kid or behaves just like a kid.

I really apreciate Hugo, when I knew he was at home resting and healing from his injures of the bar brawl I was worried about him, not phisically but emotionally, I really not believed what our sensei told me cause Hugo is.... just a kid and I could not pictured him drunk in a bar and fighting with more than three guys for stupid things. I could feel the the way Hugo feelt those days, wondering what went wrong.

I want Hugo to overcome all the troubles he have and wish him a good black belt test and pass it with flying colours believe me, so I was trying to make him understad he must train regulary and to improve his techs.

About rank I want to let you know that all MA practiciones deserves my respect even the lower ranks, I treat all black belts no matter what MA they practice with honor and respect, no matter Kenpo, no matter Judo, No matter capoeira, etc. and that's the way I like to be treated.

Hugos fault was to be so young and reckless, my fault was to try to educate him, I am not his father and I am not his sensei, I am a grown up man who cares about him, that-s all.

Manny

You should still kick him..... just for saying TKD BB is worthless.....

 

[Twin Fist]

You should still kick him..... just for saying TKD BB is worthless.....

well, there is that

 

[Tames D]

Hugo and his instructor should be demoted for him losing a bar fight. Hell, isn't that what martial arts is all about, fighting?

 

[granfire]

Hugo and his instructor should be demoted for him losing a bar fight. Hell, isn't that what martial arts is all about, fighting?

yeah, but not getting sh*tfaced and tilting windmills! :lol:

 

[granfire]

Thank yopu very much to all mis amigos here for your coments. Yes I was wrong about about telling Hugo he is not prepared for his black belt examination that was error number 1 on me, error number 2 was not knocking off the discusion in the early moments. I Think I must apologize to Hugo for this.

In the other hand is clear that Hugo lacks humility but well..... he's just a kid or behaves just like a kid.

I really apreciate Hugo, when I knew he was at home resting and healing from his injures of the bar brawl I was worried about him, not phisically but emotionally, I really not believed what our sensei told me cause Hugo is.... just a kid and I could not pictured him drunk in a bar and fighting with more than three guys for stupid things. I could feel the the way Hugo feelt those days, wondering what went wrong.

I want Hugo to overcome all the troubles he have and wish him a good black belt test and pass it with flying colours believe me, so I was trying to make him understad he must train regulary and to improve his techs.

About rank I want to let you know that all MA practiciones deserves my respect even the lower ranks, I treat all black belts no matter what MA they practice with honor and respect, no matter Kenpo, no matter Judo, No matter capoeira, etc. and that's the way I like to be treated.

Hugos fault was to be so young and reckless, my fault was to try to educate him, I am not his father and I am not his sensei, I am a grown up man who cares about him, that-s all.

Manny

Well, once again you humble me.

I suppose this young man has learned a valuable lesson. Maybe a couple more if he had the courage to listen o you.

You are a good and caring man, my friend!

 

[goingd]

I will say this:

If Larry Tatum - who has no rank in Taekwondo - came to me and pointed out that I look sloppy while performing my forms, I will take what he says to heart. I will not say, "Larry, Taekwondo is my thing so don't talk to me about it."

He is still a master of martial arts, and deserves my respect. Manny deserved Hugo's respect. Even if not for his rank in another style, but for his age. In my world, a piece of cloth around your waist does not define your character.

Edit: Age is not an excuse to me. I am twenty and I know how to treat others, and I certainly know not to get drunk and in a bar fight.

 

[Jenny_in_Chico]

To me, this entire interaction between Manny and Hugo seems like it grew out of an incomplete understanding of boundaries. Manny stepped over a boundary and advised Hugo on how he could improve his art. Manny made the situation worse by telling Hugo that he was not ready to test, which not only invaded Hugo's boundaries but also invaded the sensei's boundaries. It is the responsibility of the sensei to determine who is ready to test, and Manny indirectly showed disrespect to him by voicing that opinion.

Conversely, Hugo seems like he is unable to defend his boundaries with confidence and calm. Hugo should have responded by thanking Manny for his concern, and calmly explaining that his test date was entirely up to sensei. Instead, he sensed that he was being invaded, and reacted with anger and arrogance. He punished Manny by devaluing his TKD BB (which cannot lose it's value no matter what Hugo or anyone else says). Hugo's behavior is probably due to youth and perhaps stupidity...he will probably gain a better sense of where his boundaries are and how to establish them with firmness with people who try to encroach. Some people never learn this, however.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Manny shouldn't have to say anything, the instructor should address Hugo's immaturity and lack of control.

Which causes me to question why Hugo has a brown belt in the first place, much less why he's allowed in the dojo after starting a bar fight.

 

[terryl965]

Let me start off by saying I have respect for all Black Belts that are truely a B.B.. Now with that being said when I am training at another school that I hold a lower rank than my partner it is not my place to question what goes on inside somebody eles school and if I was offended I would simply find some other place to train. You see if you came to me for kicking traing and improvment and you was Larry Tatum I would respect you but still inside my world you hold no official rank which means you are just like all my other students period. You see rank does not cross over it must be earned though continous training and time in, that does not give him or any other person the right to try and give advice on my floor if my Red belt equal to that brown belt was teaching than I would just wait and talk to the head instructor after class about my issue's since it is his school. Sometimes we tend to believe all BB and higher belts are created equal which is not the case and sometimes we also tend to forget that people might act like a jerk in front of other students but not in front of the head instructor.

The best lesson to learn is a simple one train for yourself and let the head instructor handle all the BS that goes inside alot of dojo's.

 

[Manny]

Let me start off by saying I have respect for all Black Belts that are truely a B.B.. Now with that being said when I am training at another school that I hold a lower rank than my partner it is not my place to question what goes on inside somebody eles school and if I was offended I would simply find some other place to train. You see if you came to me for kicking traing and improvment and you was Larry Tatum I would respect you but still inside my world you hold no official rank which means you are just like all my other students period. You see rank does not cross over it must be earned though continous training and time in, that does not give him or any other person the right to try and give advice on my floor if my Red belt equal to that brown belt was teaching than I would just wait and talk to the head instructor after class about my issue's since it is his school. Sometimes we tend to believe all BB and higher belts are created equal which is not the case and sometimes we also tend to forget that people might act like a jerk in front of other students but not in front of the head instructor.

The best lesson to learn is a simple one train for yourself and let the head instructor handle all the BS that goes inside alot of dojo's.

.

Thank you Terry for sharing. Even I am a BB in TKD and my kenpo sensei knows it, I start as a white belt and earned my yellow belt afther a test or examination, so basically I am a yellow belt iniside kenpo dojo. The experience gained in TKD has helped me to understand better the kenpo techs and philosopy. Again, inside kenpo dojo I am a yellow belt period.

However, I think if I had a TKD dojang and invited to train or to impart a seminar to Larry Tatum, been Mr.Tatum a older man that I, having a higher ranck than I and been a master and almost legend inside the MA he deserves more than respect from me, my students,the same is for a judoka or even a aikidoka for example.

The same is when I traing with friends, for example when I train Budo Taijutsu with my friend Daniel, I adhere to the techs and etiquete inside his dojo, eventually Daniel ask me about his techs and ask me if I can share some of my techs with him and his students, I would never critisize how daniel teachs.

This episode was as I told in the first post lacking of humility of a kenpo partner and lacking of touch of my part, I was trying to encourage Hugo to do his best but I think I pass the limits.

Manny