Kwans refused to be TKD

[terryl965]

What was some of the earlier Kwans that did not want TKD and rebelled over it? I know of some that resisted but eventually joined but I really do not know who just plain refused to be part of the movement in Korea, so if you can provide this info thank you.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think the easiest example would be GM Hwang Kee of the Moo Duk Kwan. Although, from my own reading, it looks like he left as much because he was not selected to lead the unification as anything else. The Soo Bak Do web site still insists to this day that people who train in Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan are not "real" Moo Duk Kwan.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

As Dirty Dog stated, HWANG Kee's Moo Duk Kwan was the Kwan that refused the merger. However, a large portion of the Moo Duk Kwan supported the unification, and thus created the first of many splinters of the Moo Duk Kwan: Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo vs. Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do. Later HWANG Kee renamed his art Moo Duk Kwan Soo Bahk Do.

 

[puunui]

As Dirty Dog stated, HWANG Kee's Moo Duk Kwan was the Kwan that refused the merger. However, a large portion of the Moo Duk Kwan supported the unification, and thus created the first of many splinters of the Moo Duk Kwan: Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo vs. Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do. Later HWANG Kee renamed his art Moo Duk Kwan Soo Bahk Do.

Actually I believe GM HWANG Kee started calling his art Soobahkdo in 1960 or so.

Here is a section from the Modern History that describes the Soobahkdo Hwe:

*

Chapter 2, Section 5: HWANG Kee and the Korea Soo Bahk Do Association

As the 1959 Korea Taekwondo Association was collapsing in April 1960, HWANG Kee took advantage of the
disruption and chaos during this period. When the huge demonstrations against ROK President RHEE Syng
Man's corruption broke out, HWANG Kee used a powerful man in politics to finish registering the Korea Soo
Bahk Do Association with the Korea Amateur Sports Association at the Ministry of Education.
The members of the 1959 Korea Taekwondo Association were upset and petitioned the Ministry of Education to protest what they considered a wrong doing. At the time, every representative from each Kwan said HWANG Kee's unilateral behavior was a misdeed.
The following is part of the 1959 Korea Taekwondo Association petition against the Korea Soo Bahk Do Association:

"We, the Korea Taekwondo Association, cooperate with the national rebuilding committee's policies, but we must petition the registration of the gangster's (gangpae) hotbed, the Korea Soo Bahk Do Association (Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan). Soo Bahk Do's official discipline is to train both body and spirit, but in reality, it is just an unsportsmanlike school.

The evidence is as follows:

1. In Kwang Ju, Soo Bahk Do trainees beat up students of Kwang Ju High School and gave rise to public criticism, so much so the Ministry of Education stopped Tang Soo Do training;

2. In Taejon, Soo Bahk Do trainees fought with another gangster group in the street;

3. The high ranking leaders of a Soo Bahk Do school beat up the workers of the Taejon Theater when they were not given free tickets;

4. One military soldier was stabbed and injured by a Soo Bahk Do trainee and now the trainee is in jail.
. . .
This kind of behavior is happening all over the country. There are numerous other incidents of misconduct we cannot mention. Furthermore, Dan certificates were given recklessly, with the Soo Bahk Do Association charging a large amount of money for the certificates to fulfill their desire and greed, which in effect, amounted to the selling of rank. Using these bought certificates, Soo Bahk Do trainees quietly threatened people and
bilked restaurants by refusing to pay their checks. . . . Soo Bahk Do caused a big social disruption and was once banned by the Ministry of Education. So how can the Soo Bahk Do Association be officially registered as a legal (sa dan bup in) Association? As a matter of course, the registration must be stopped and the Association must be eliminated.

Korea Taekwondo Association
June 1960"

After the 1959 Korea Taekwondo Association petitioned the Ministry of Education and the Korea Amateur Sports Association, it requested sanctions against the Korea Soo Bahk Do Association, but the Ministry of Education said it could not stop the freedom of the Association. However, the Ministry of Education requested the registration of a new Association because it couldn't recognize two different Associations in one sport. In the
meantime, General PARK Chung Hee carried out a coup de tat on March 16, 1961.

 

[puunui]

HWANG Kee used a powerful man in politics to finish registering the Korea Soo Bahk Do Association with the Korea Amateur Sports Association at the Ministry of Education.

One question though, if GM HWANG Kee was so against "sport", then why would he register his organization with the Korea Amateur Sports Association?

 

[puunui]

What was some of the earlier Kwans that did not want TKD and rebelled over it? I know of some that resisted but eventually joined but I really do not know who just plain refused to be part of the movement in Korea, so if you can provide this info thank you.

Print out and read the Modern History translation. It will give you all of that information and more.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

The MooDuk kwan did sign on to the unification when it was finalized in 1978. However it was not under their founder, GM Hwang Kee, as already stated. Dr. Yoon worked with GM Hwang & remained true to his karate. But GM Lee Chong Woo took over the Jidokwan from him & they also signed on in 1978.
So Dr Yoon, Gen Choi & GM Hwang, 3 out of the 7 Koreans that brought the martial arts to Korea did not sign on. Nor did the 3 other original kwan founders, Lee, Yoon & Chun, as tey left Korea or died in 1950. GM Ro Byung Jik's SongMookwan did sign on. I am just not sure if he was the signer. I would have to check the Modern Hostory by Kang & Lee again.
But the 9 major kwans all signed on, in some form or another

 

[puunui]

The MooDuk kwan did sign on to the unification when it was finalized in 1978. However it was not under their founder, GM Hwang Kee, as already stated. Dr. Yoon worked with GM Hwang & remained true to his karate. But GM Lee Chong Woo took over the Jidokwan from him & they also signed on in 1978.
So Dr Yoon, Gen Choi & GM Hwang, 3 out of the 7 Koreans that brought the martial arts to Korea did not sign on. Nor did the 3 other original kwan founders, Lee, Yoon & Chun, as tey left Korea or died in 1950. GM Ro Byung Jik's SongMookwan did sign on. I am just not sure if he was the signer. I would have to check the Modern Hostory by Kang & Lee again.
But the 9 major kwans all signed on, in some form or another

I think you are confusing the Kwan Unification Resolution signed by the kwan jang in March 1965, and the later kwan unification document signed by the kwan jang in 1978. GM HWANG Kee signed on behalf of the Moo Duk Kwan in March 1965, and then immediately said it was invalid because of General Choi. GM HONG Chong Soo signed the 1978 agreement on behalf of the Moo Duk Kwan. GM RO Byung Jick signed on behalf of the Song Moo Kwan in 1965, and GM KANG Won Sik signed on behalf of the Song Moo Kwan in 1978. GM YOON Kwe Byung signed on behalf of the Jidokwan in 1965, and GM LEE Chong Woo signed on behalf of the Jidokwan in 1978.

 

[miguksaram]

Though I do not have any written proof, I was told my TKD instructor who is Jidokwan that Jidokwan was in and out of the unification process. At first they were for it, but then withdrew and then finally decided to go forth with it.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Though I do not have any written proof, I was told my TKD instructor who is Jidokwan that Jidokwan was in and out of the unification process. At first they were for it, but then withdrew and then finally decided to go forth with it.

I think that this may be a fair assessment. maybe Puunui can weigh in on this. I would say that Dr Yoon took over once the dust settled in the Jidokwan, along with or assisted by GM Lee Chong Woo, a senior student, as the Kwan founder disappeared during the Korean Civil War. They also renamed it the Jidokwan when they re-opened it after the war.
Dr Yoon was respectful of his karate roots & was actually the highest ranked Korean, with some reporting him to be as high as 7th Dan. He colloborated with GM Hwang Kee. GM Lee was a primary mover in the TKD (Olympic) movement. He was the one who eventually became the Jidokwan leader & had them join the Taekwondo movement. Dr Yoon remained karate

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote: Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
The MooDuk kwan did sign on to the unification when it was finalized in 1978. However it was not under their founder, GM Hwang Kee, as already stated. Dr. Yoon worked with GM Hwang & remained true to his karate. But GM Lee Chong Woo took over the Jidokwan from him & they also signed on in 1978.
So Dr Yoon, Gen Choi & GM Hwang, 3 out of the 7 Koreans that brought the martial arts to Korea did not sign on. Nor did the 3 other original kwan founders, Lee, Yoon & Chun, as tey left Korea or died in 1950. GM Ro Byung Jik's SongMookwan did sign on. I am just not sure if he was the signer. I would have to check the Modern History by Kang & Lee again.
But the 9 major kwans all signed on, in some form or another

I think you are confusing the Kwan Unification Resolution signed by the kwan jang in March 1965, and the later kwan unification document signed by the kwan jang in 1978.

No I realize the difference, but was just combining them for ease of understanding. My point was that the MDK & JDK all eventually signed on. While GM Hwang tried to work with TKD, he quickly dropped out & did so more than once. He did the same thing in 1959 & I believe even before that, when the original Korean (karate) kwans were trying to work together under the Kong Soo Doo name, which was a Korean term for karate.

GM HWANG Kee signed on behalf of the Moo Duk Kwan in March 1965, and then immediately said it was invalid because of General Choi. GM HONG Chong Soo signed the 1978 agreement on behalf of the Moo Duk Kwan.

Yes I understand that & this change of heart by GM Hwang was what contributed to the split in the MDK, so yes there was a different signer for the MDK in 1978.

GM RO Byung Jick signed on behalf of the Song Moo Kwan in 1965, and GM KANG Won Sik signed on behalf of the Song Moo Kwan in 1978.

Thanks for this. Can you offer any insight to why GM Ro, the SMK founder didn't sign on in 1978?

GM YOON Kwe Byung signed on behalf of the Jidokwan in 1965, and GM LEE Chong Woo signed on behalf of the Jidokwan in 1978.

Yes Dr Yoon stayed true to his karate roots. The Modern History & or Steve Capener, PhD may have added that the 1st generation leaders did not like the focus of the 2nd generation leaders.

 

[msmitht]

Actually I believe GM HWANG Kee started calling his art Soobahkdo in 1960 or so.

Here is a section from the Modern History that describes the Soobahkdo Hwe:

*

Chapter 2, Section 5: HWANG Kee and the Korea Soo Bahk Do Association

As the 1959 Korea Taekwondo Association was collapsing in April 1960, HWANG Kee took advantage of the
disruption and chaos during this period. When the huge demonstrations against ROK President RHEE Syng
Man's corruption broke out, HWANG Kee used a powerful man in politics to finish registering the Korea Soo
Bahk Do Association with the Korea Amateur Sports Association at the Ministry of Education.
The members of the 1959 Korea Taekwondo Association were upset and petitioned the Ministry of Education to protest what they considered a wrong doing. At the time, every representative from each Kwan said HWANG Kee's unilateral behavior was a misdeed.
The following is part of the 1959 Korea Taekwondo Association petition against the Korea Soo Bahk Do Association:

"We, the Korea Taekwondo Association, cooperate with the national rebuilding committee's policies, but we must petition the registration of the gangster's (gangpae) hotbed, the Korea Soo Bahk Do Association (Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan). Soo Bahk Do's official discipline is to train both body and spirit, but in reality, it is just an unsportsmanlike school.

The evidence is as follows:

1. In Kwang Ju, Soo Bahk Do trainees beat up students of Kwang Ju High School and gave rise to public criticism, so much so the Ministry of Education stopped Tang Soo Do training;

2. In Taejon, Soo Bahk Do trainees fought with another gangster group in the street;

3. The high ranking leaders of a Soo Bahk Do school beat up the workers of the Taejon Theater when they were not given free tickets;

4. One military soldier was stabbed and injured by a Soo Bahk Do trainee and now the trainee is in jail.
. . .
This kind of behavior is happening all over the country. There are numerous other incidents of misconduct we cannot mention. Furthermore, Dan certificates were given recklessly, with the Soo Bahk Do Association charging a large amount of money for the certificates to fulfill their desire and greed, which in effect, amounted to the selling of rank. Using these bought certificates, Soo Bahk Do trainees quietly threatened people and
bilked restaurants by refusing to pay their checks. . . . Soo Bahk Do caused a big social disruption and was once banned by the Ministry of Education. So how can the Soo Bahk Do Association be officially registered as a legal (sa dan bup in) Association? As a matter of course, the registration must be stopped and the Association must be eliminated.

Korea Taekwondo Association
June 1960"

After the 1959 Korea Taekwondo Association petitioned the Ministry of Education and the Korea Amateur Sports Association, it requested sanctions against the Korea Soo Bahk Do Association, but the Ministry of Education said it could not stop the freedom of the Association. However, the Ministry of Education requested the registration of a new Association because it couldn't recognize two different Associations in one sport. In the
meantime, General PARK Chung Hee carried out a coup de tat on March 16, 1961.

I was a student of a Moon Ku Baek for a time. He and his brothers learned Tang Soo Do from a young Hwang Kee. They practiced japanese kata through Bassai/Kanku Dai. Lots of Sparrinig and 1 steps. There were bad guys (gangsters) in the classes. There were fights. Eventually he took an offer from Gen. Choi's group and left for america under the TKD flag. He showed me his school banner from Korea. It translates to Moo Duk Kwan Tong Soo do.
At no time did he ever make mention of the name Soo Bak. I asked him once and was told that they practiced what was allowed which was karate. Since there was a general hatred for the Japanese at that time they named what they were doing "tong soo" in reference to the fighting hand of the Chinese.
My point? STOP calling it Soo Bak Do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The orginazition was called soo bak ki but what was taught was Karate, Tong Soo Do and mixed styles of Kung Fu (WUSHU for those in the know).

 

[puunui]

I would say that Dr Yoon took over once the dust settled in the Jidokwan, along with or assisted by GM Lee Chong Woo, a senior student, as the Kwan founder disappeared during the Korean Civil War. They also renamed it the Jidokwan when they re-opened it after the war.

I asked GM LEE Chong Woo why they chose Dr. YOON Kwe Byung as the new leader. He said that Dr. Yoon was a member of the Chosun Yun Moo Kwan Kwon Bup Bu during the 1940's, and as the highest ranked practitioner, he naturally was the one to take over after GM CHUN Sang Sup disappeared. Also, they changed the name to Jidokwan because they no longer were allowed to use the Yun Moo Kwan facilities to practice. Also, I think they reopened during the Korean War, not after.

 

[puunui]

Yes Dr Yoon stayed true to his karate roots. The Modern History & or Steve Capener, PhD may have added that the 1st generation leaders did not like the focus of the 2nd generation leaders.

Steve Capener is an interesting man. He used to show up to USTU events all the time. He speaks fluent Korean. His paper, which was plagerized by Herb Perez in Black Belt magazine, has some inaccuracies in it, mainly because he cites to General Choi's works.

But irrespective of that, I am not sure that GM HWANG Kee is truly a 1st Generation practitioner, in the sense that he did not train in Karate in Japan, like the other 1st generation people. He did study some sort of Chinese martial arts in Manchuria, which GM LEE Won Kuk confirmed, but he had no Karate experience and learned mainly from GM HYUN Jong Myung when both worked for the railroad. So in that sense, GM Hwang is a 2nd or maybe even 3rd generation practitioner, at least with respect to karate. I think this was one of the primary issues that GM Hwang had with the younger generation, who may have saw themselves as GM Hwang's senior as far as Karate arts went. GM Hwang had the age, but not the experience or training to be a 1st generation practitioner.

This may have contributed or may help to explain the organization of the Moo Duk Kwan, which was set up like a corporation, with a board of directors which decided things. Sort of like what bluewaveschool had going in his club.

Even General Choi had seniority over GM Hwang in this regard, in that at least General Choi did study karate in Japan. But while GM Hwang started late, his accomplishments as well as the accomplishments and contributions of the Moo Duk Kwan cannot be denied.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

One question though, if GM HWANG Kee was so against "sport", then why would he register his organization with the Korea Amateur Sports Association?

My guess would be that it was a way to seem legitimate at a very trying time period of great disorganization. Remember their civil war saw more casualties in that short duration in time, in history. Almost complete destruction. This was also after a long period of living under an occupying force. Gangs ruled the streets until the Allied Forces, mainly the USA were able to train Koreans soldiers like Gen Choi, before they slowly set up order. The Republic of Korea went from the 2nd poorest nation on the planet to the host of the G20, the 10 largest economy in the world & 1 of the richest. The 1st recipient nation of the UN to become a donor nation (maybe the only). I have heard older Koreans compare Korea of then to Afganastan of today.
This is why many forgive the military dictator Gen Park for the terrible things he inflicted on his people, as many see the fruits today.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Steve Capener is an interesting man. He used to show up to USTU events all the time. He speaks fluent Korean. His paper, which was plagerized by Herb Perez in Black Belt magazine, has some inaccuracies in it, mainly because he cites to General Choi's works.

Why is it inaccurate? is it because he cites & uses Gen Choi works for his research?
What in it do you think is not correct?

I also think that being an American he was not hampered by the nasty Korean politics that have confused & manipulated TKD's history of development. He also wrote & conducted his research at a time when the military dictatorships were over & the democratically elected presidents began to really make south Korea a democracy. We must remember that there was not the freedom of speech & press then that there is today in the ROK. Hence today & in the future, more information is coming out about Gen Choi's contributions & how TKD really came about. No more 2,000 year old myths

 

[KarateMomUSA]

But irrespective of that, I am not sure that GM HWANG Kee is truly a 1st Generation practitioner, in the sense that he did not train in Karate in Japan, like the other 1st generation people. He did study some sort of Chinese martial arts in Manchuria, which GM LEE Won Kuk confirmed, but he had no Karate experience and learned mainly from GM HYUN Jong Myung when both worked for the railroad. So in that sense, GM Hwang is a 2nd or maybe even 3rd generation practitioner, at least with respect to karate. I think this was one of the primary issues that GM Hwang had with the younger generation, who may have saw themselves as GM Hwang's senior as far as Karate arts went. GM Hwang had the age, but not the experience or training to be a 1st generation practitioner.

This may have contributed or may help to explain the organization of the Moo Duk Kwan, which was set up like a corporation, with a board of directors which decided things. Sort of like what bluewaveschool had going in his club.

Even General Choi had seniority over GM Hwang in this regard, in that at least General Choi did study karate in Japan. But while GM Hwang started late, his accomplishments as well as the accomplishments and contributions of the Moo Duk Kwan cannot be denied.

Sir I don't wish to get bogged down or sidetracked by definitions. But I do look at things a bit different. Maybe it is also part semantics. I group all 7 Korean that studied martial arts abroad in 1 category, Choi, Chun, Hwang, Ro, Yoon, & Dr Yoon, listed in spelling order only. I call these men the ones that brought martial arts to Korea in the 1940s.
6 of these Korean opened the 6 early kwans, with Dr Yoon helping at the JDK
The 1st heads of these early kwans I call the kwan founders. Their students & the students of Dr Yoon are the 2nd generation leaders. These men (2nd gen), along with Gen Choi & GM Ro can be viewed as founders of ITF or WTF respectively. The Pioneers come from this group & their students, who in turn blazed the trail for TKD around the world. These Pioneers also include kwan founder Gen Choi, as he introduced TKD to Malaysia in 1962. Pioneers that also were the 1st in a nation to bring TKD can also be called the father of TKD for that country.

Yes I also take age into account with seniority, along with who started their study earlier, along with education & station in life.

 

[miguksaram]

He also wrote & conducted his research at a time when the military dictatorships were over & the democratically elected presidents began to really make south Korea a democracy.

You have mentioned the military dictatorship ending and democracy beginning in another thread. About what time frame are referring to this happening?

 

[puunui]

Why is it inaccurate? is it because he cites & uses Gen Choi works for his research? What in it do you think is not correct?

General Choi lied all the time. GM Son pointed it out in his newspaper ad.

I also think that being an American he was not hampered by the nasty Korean politics that have confused & manipulated TKD's history of development.

there is no nasty korean politics that confused & manipulated Taekwondo's history. The only person who did that was General Choi, in his efforts to secure his wrongful place in history as Taekwondo's founder. The pioneers all have a remarkably homogenous view of Taekwondo's history, having lived through it together. Their view of history is parallels their technical similarity, which is also almost pretty much exactly the same as everyone else's. They all have their own perspective, because they had different areas of responsibility, but their words and their recollections are pretty much uniform.

Except for General Choi. If you try to somehow blend together his version with everyone else's then confusion, nasty politics and all that gets thrown into the mix. I reached a point where I decided I needed to completely separate General Choi's version from everyone elses. That way, you get a clear picture, of General Choi vs. everyone else. It is really a shame because he tried so hard to be the focal point for Taekwondo, and yet he is almost the antithesis of what Taekwondo is, which is unification, a goal even General Choi strived hard for.

He also wrote & conducted his research at a time when the military dictatorships were over & the democratically elected presidents began to really make south Korea a democracy. We must remember that there was not the freedom of speech & press then that there is today in the ROK. Hence today & in the future, more information is coming out about Gen Choi's contributions & how TKD really came about. No more 2,000 year old myths

Like I said, Steve Capener used to show up to all the time to USTU events, and we have discussed history while eating dinner and drinking before, about his overreliance on General Choi's works and other issues. After the Modern History came out, he pretty much became quiet about Taekwondo history, and never wrote another article about it after that. He's more into Brazilian Jiujitsu now than Taekwondo.

 

[puunui]

6 of these Korean opened the 6 early kwans, with Dr Yoon helping at the JDK. The 1st heads of these early kwans I call the kwan founders.

There are only five original kwans, not six. Oh Do Kwan was founded in the the 1950's, and is not considered an original kwan. The Oh Do Kwan is considered an annex or branch kwan of the Chung Do Kwan. The first Kwan Jang of the Oh Do Kwan was GM NAM Tae Hi, not General Choi, although General Choi did use his military influence to make Taekwondo training mandatory. For that, GM SON Duk Sung made his an Honorary 4th Dan and Honorary Chung Do Kwan Jang. The original Oh Do Kwan curriculum was the Chung Do Kwan curriculum.