Ninja: The Invisible Assassins. My favorite part is the section on how mizugomo allowed the ninja to walk on water... 
Kug Maky Ung Ryu Ninjitsu
- Thread starter emiliozapata
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Especially when they carry their deadly Michelin Shuriken of ... aw, hell, whatever. :lfao:
Not if they're flying monkeys... :lol:
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Okay, here we go....
In the introduction/acknowledgments, Adams clearly states that Hatsumi is the 34th Headmaster of Togakure Ryu, Okuse is the mayor of Iga-Ueno, and a scholar and historian. It has been long established that Yumio Nawa is not a Ninjutsu practitioner, but is also a historian. However, he is an instructor, or the head of Masaki Ryu Manriki Gusari Jutsu (which he taught to Hatsumi in the 50's or 60's). Iga-Hakuyusai is a performer, and that is simply a stage name. The only other verifiable (although a bit contraversial) authentic Ninjutsu practitioner mentioned in the book is Seiko Fujita of the Wada-ha Koga Ryu.
You're right, Emilio, the term Taijutsu is not used in the book. Instead, the term Kumi-Uchi is used, a term which is (or at least, should be) familiar to all practitioners of Ninjutsu. The term simply means Close Quarters, and is used by a variety of schools, sometimes to describe a grip (Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Koto Ryu etc), and sometimes to refer to a form of combat (Yoroi Kumi Uchi from Kukishinden Ryu, sometimes used instead of Dakentaijutsu) which could be purely unarmed, grappling, striking, using small armaments such as kabuto wari and daggers, armoured or suhada (unarmoured). The use of the term depends on the school, the particular head (Gyokko Ryu has been known as Ninjutsu, Ninpo, Shitojutsu, Kosshi, Kosshijutsu in it's time, depending on who was heading it), who it is being described to, and sometimes, just which term a listener decides to latch on to. But, yes Cryo, the term is sometimes used to decribe a particular schools curriculum.
Remember that many terms are used within Ninjutsu, such as Koppo, Kosshi, Dakentaijutsu, Jutaijutsu, Yoroi Kumi Uchi, and Ninpo Taijutsu, so which did Adams choose for convenience? This, by the way, is not unique to the Ninjutsu schools. Yagyu Shingan Ryu has several terms used, depending on whichsection you are studying, if it is armoured or not, and the level of experience the student has. These terms include Katchu Yawara, Kogusoku Yawara, or Suhada Yawara, and these are further split into Torite No Jutsu, Totte No Jutsu, Kogusoku Totte, and Gyoi Dori (a particularly fascinating area from my perspective...) The term Kumi Uchi is used specifically by schools such as Hoki Ryu, Takenouchi Ryu, and Enshin Ryu to name a few.
Finally, Adams' book is considered a seminal work in that it is one of the primary sources for what was known as the Ninja boom of the 80's. It is the first book I read on the art, and willl always have a place on my bookshelf for that reason. But it is simply not an accurate portrayal. Adams needed to have a number of sources to be taken seriously, and that meant some people had their status raised to add credibility, not a totally unheard of situation. Hatsumi, Takamatsu, and Seiko Fujita are the only people whose actual claims are listed, that is your first clue as to the status of the rest (who, I might add, I do have a great deal of respect for, particularly persons such as Yumio Nawa - who, if you ask him, will simply tell you he has never trained or taught Ninjutsu) as definitive sources. Adams was also one of the first Westerners allowed to watch the training by Hatsumi, but he never trained the art. Without that experience, sitting and watching doesn't add up to much.
If Adams' book is what you are basing your ideas on, you're a bit behind the times. As I have previously said, you really need to allow yourself to accept that you don't know everything, and open your mind to the idea that you have a lot to learn. So stay, and learn form those who have been there, or don't be here and stick with your fantasies.
In the introduction/acknowledgments, Adams clearly states that Hatsumi is the 34th Headmaster of Togakure Ryu, Okuse is the mayor of Iga-Ueno, and a scholar and historian. It has been long established that Yumio Nawa is not a Ninjutsu practitioner, but is also a historian. However, he is an instructor, or the head of Masaki Ryu Manriki Gusari Jutsu (which he taught to Hatsumi in the 50's or 60's). Iga-Hakuyusai is a performer, and that is simply a stage name. The only other verifiable (although a bit contraversial) authentic Ninjutsu practitioner mentioned in the book is Seiko Fujita of the Wada-ha Koga Ryu.
You're right, Emilio, the term Taijutsu is not used in the book. Instead, the term Kumi-Uchi is used, a term which is (or at least, should be) familiar to all practitioners of Ninjutsu. The term simply means Close Quarters, and is used by a variety of schools, sometimes to describe a grip (Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Koto Ryu etc), and sometimes to refer to a form of combat (Yoroi Kumi Uchi from Kukishinden Ryu, sometimes used instead of Dakentaijutsu) which could be purely unarmed, grappling, striking, using small armaments such as kabuto wari and daggers, armoured or suhada (unarmoured). The use of the term depends on the school, the particular head (Gyokko Ryu has been known as Ninjutsu, Ninpo, Shitojutsu, Kosshi, Kosshijutsu in it's time, depending on who was heading it), who it is being described to, and sometimes, just which term a listener decides to latch on to. But, yes Cryo, the term is sometimes used to decribe a particular schools curriculum.
Remember that many terms are used within Ninjutsu, such as Koppo, Kosshi, Dakentaijutsu, Jutaijutsu, Yoroi Kumi Uchi, and Ninpo Taijutsu, so which did Adams choose for convenience? This, by the way, is not unique to the Ninjutsu schools. Yagyu Shingan Ryu has several terms used, depending on whichsection you are studying, if it is armoured or not, and the level of experience the student has. These terms include Katchu Yawara, Kogusoku Yawara, or Suhada Yawara, and these are further split into Torite No Jutsu, Totte No Jutsu, Kogusoku Totte, and Gyoi Dori (a particularly fascinating area from my perspective...) The term Kumi Uchi is used specifically by schools such as Hoki Ryu, Takenouchi Ryu, and Enshin Ryu to name a few.
Finally, Adams' book is considered a seminal work in that it is one of the primary sources for what was known as the Ninja boom of the 80's. It is the first book I read on the art, and willl always have a place on my bookshelf for that reason. But it is simply not an accurate portrayal. Adams needed to have a number of sources to be taken seriously, and that meant some people had their status raised to add credibility, not a totally unheard of situation. Hatsumi, Takamatsu, and Seiko Fujita are the only people whose actual claims are listed, that is your first clue as to the status of the rest (who, I might add, I do have a great deal of respect for, particularly persons such as Yumio Nawa - who, if you ask him, will simply tell you he has never trained or taught Ninjutsu) as definitive sources. Adams was also one of the first Westerners allowed to watch the training by Hatsumi, but he never trained the art. Without that experience, sitting and watching doesn't add up to much.
If Adams' book is what you are basing your ideas on, you're a bit behind the times. As I have previously said, you really need to allow yourself to accept that you don't know everything, and open your mind to the idea that you have a lot to learn. So stay, and learn form those who have been there, or don't be here and stick with your fantasies.
Cirdan
Senior Master
Hudson69
Brown Belt
What you are doing sounds very similar to the course of study I went through with some variations. I have a "Nidan" in Kenpo Taijutsu, a "made up art." The background is predominantly Kenpo Karate (EPAK) and Budo Taijutsu but has Army Combatives, Police Defensive Tactics and some Wun Hop Kuen Do, Hapkido and AF PART thrown in just to make it wierder. My instructor could have decided to call it Kenpo Ninjutsu or Bill's Ninjutsu but he didn't the training group voted and we decided to call it Kenpo Taijutsu because it uses almost all of the Kenpo techniques (up to and including 1st brown with slight modifications to some), up to where they begin to repeat with additions, some of the stances, the strikes, the kicks, blocks and parries. It also uses some of the kata, most of the weapons and some more. From Budo Taijutsu it borrows the rolls and breakfalls (taihenjutsu), the throws (nage waza), the escape techniques (hajutsu kuho), the reversals (gyaku waza) and the concepts as well. From DT and Army Combatives it gets most of its field craft and directness as well as some control techniques and the Hapkido provides a great amount of kicking assets. We train a lot with guns at higher levels and so the Police training is borrowed for the handgun and shotgun while the Army is used for long guns as well as how to move/operate safely/tactically in an urban (again Mil/LE) or rural (Mil/LE). Let me state that this decision did not come about overnight it came from the fact that the training group was together to learn/study Budo Taijutsu but because there were several of us who had a Kenpo background and a military/law enforcement background we felt that Budo Taijutsu was not a practical system to learn for self defense or for a "modern warrior" unless you got up to your 5th kyu or sometimes higher, for people who knew the techniques but not the mind set to apply them in a common self defense situation.
I am going to start a new thread on this as a question to get some feed back. But I feel that if you have talent, skills and an way to get the training across (and heart) then go for it since there is no such thing as an original art except for what you have learned.
I am going to start a new thread on this as a question to get some feed back. But I feel that if you have talent, skills and an way to get the training across (and heart) then go for it since there is no such thing as an original art except for what you have learned.
Nebuchadnezzar
Blue Belt
After this comment, no one needed say anything else unless they have the intention of leaving this for anyone in the future to see it as a warning that "Something Ludicrus This Way Comes".
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hi,
I agree that there really is very little left to be said, and I'm almost certainly going to regret continuing this path, but I thought one last approach may have a chance...
Emilio, you seem to relyon the older works of Stephen Hayes and Adams to give you your understanding of Ninjutsu, so let's have a quick look at something from Hayes' 4th Volume of his Ninja series of books. At the end of that volume, there features an interview with Hayes, which is really an informal question and answer session with some students. Here are a few choice (and relevant) questions, and the answers. I have abreviated for ease fo reading, but do feel free to look up the original to check that I am not taking anything out of context. Oh, and do listen up, this applies directly to you and your "art".
Q. Couldn't martial artists today do the same sort of research, and develop their own ninjutsu systems? (following a question about the battlefield history and testing methods of the arts development)
A. No, that is not possible. Where today are we going to get the opportunity to actually test out the damaging or killing techniques of any new theoretical system we might invent?..Obviously (the testing would not be) morally or legally acceptible in our current age.
Q. Couldn't a new art be tested out in the full-contact competitive ring under reasonably safe conditions, where the results could be discerned by all? If a technique was not effective, it wouldn't be included for long.
A. For many reasons, the ring is no place to test out a combat-oriented self-protection art. Those "reasonably safe conditions" that would keep the event legal and moral would prevent the full utilization of the fighters powers of intention. In the ring, after all, the fighters are not going at each other knowing that death is the certain result of losing.... The student might end up throwing out valid techniques that would have worked without the boxing gloves, or could end up relying on techniques that would not have at all without the gloves. The street and the field is a far different world with far different demands than are realized in the ring.
Q. Couldn't we create a new pragmatic combat art based then on a collection of only the best technique methods from a broad range of different historical martial arts?
A. In the first place, contrary to popular belief, there are very very few combat-orientated martial arts still being taught in the world. The vast majority of martial arts seem to be presented as sports or recreation systems today. At any rate, a given collection of varying pieces of different arts all thrown together does not necessarily result in a single unified art. There needs to be some sort of recognizable key element of fundamental essence around which the art takes shape.The martial arts in general are not at all a universal body of knowledge, really, when you look carefully at the radically different approaches that characterise the movements and theories of jujutsu, all the styles of karate, kenjutsu, aikido, not to mention the myriad systems from China.
Q. You always make it sound as though your teacher's ninjutsu ryu are the only ones left in the world. Isn't it possible that some others could have survived as well?
A. ... The sad truth is that almost all (other schools) have vanished due to lack of interest among the post-samurai age Japanese... Heishichiro Okuse, the retired mayor of Iga-Ueno City, is an aging scholar of historical ninjutsu writings and not a practitioner as was reported in a popular English language book on Japan's ninja... Yumio Nawa, another teacher reported to be teaching ninjutsu, is in reality an antique dealer who refers to himself as a ninjutsu kenuka (researcher of ninjutsu). Nawa does teach Japanese short chain and jo staff methods at a city recreation center every Saturday morning, but does not refer to his classical budo training group as a ninjutsu school.
And, from the 5th volume interview at the end of that book, we get this:
Q. Is there a Tibetan version of ninjutsu? (After asking Hayes about his explorations into Tibetan spiritual systems, and how they relate to his exploration of ninjutsu)
A. No. Ninjutsu is strictly a Japanese phenomenon. It never existed in other countries.
So, if you won't listen to us, Emilio (and that does beg the question, why are you here, then?), maybe you will listen to the words of Hayes... After all, you sem to have been so far. Maybe you missed this part?
I agree that there really is very little left to be said, and I'm almost certainly going to regret continuing this path, but I thought one last approach may have a chance...
Emilio, you seem to relyon the older works of Stephen Hayes and Adams to give you your understanding of Ninjutsu, so let's have a quick look at something from Hayes' 4th Volume of his Ninja series of books. At the end of that volume, there features an interview with Hayes, which is really an informal question and answer session with some students. Here are a few choice (and relevant) questions, and the answers. I have abreviated for ease fo reading, but do feel free to look up the original to check that I am not taking anything out of context. Oh, and do listen up, this applies directly to you and your "art".
Q. Couldn't martial artists today do the same sort of research, and develop their own ninjutsu systems? (following a question about the battlefield history and testing methods of the arts development)
A. No, that is not possible. Where today are we going to get the opportunity to actually test out the damaging or killing techniques of any new theoretical system we might invent?..Obviously (the testing would not be) morally or legally acceptible in our current age.
Q. Couldn't a new art be tested out in the full-contact competitive ring under reasonably safe conditions, where the results could be discerned by all? If a technique was not effective, it wouldn't be included for long.
A. For many reasons, the ring is no place to test out a combat-oriented self-protection art. Those "reasonably safe conditions" that would keep the event legal and moral would prevent the full utilization of the fighters powers of intention. In the ring, after all, the fighters are not going at each other knowing that death is the certain result of losing.... The student might end up throwing out valid techniques that would have worked without the boxing gloves, or could end up relying on techniques that would not have at all without the gloves. The street and the field is a far different world with far different demands than are realized in the ring.
Q. Couldn't we create a new pragmatic combat art based then on a collection of only the best technique methods from a broad range of different historical martial arts?
A. In the first place, contrary to popular belief, there are very very few combat-orientated martial arts still being taught in the world. The vast majority of martial arts seem to be presented as sports or recreation systems today. At any rate, a given collection of varying pieces of different arts all thrown together does not necessarily result in a single unified art. There needs to be some sort of recognizable key element of fundamental essence around which the art takes shape.The martial arts in general are not at all a universal body of knowledge, really, when you look carefully at the radically different approaches that characterise the movements and theories of jujutsu, all the styles of karate, kenjutsu, aikido, not to mention the myriad systems from China.
Q. You always make it sound as though your teacher's ninjutsu ryu are the only ones left in the world. Isn't it possible that some others could have survived as well?
A. ... The sad truth is that almost all (other schools) have vanished due to lack of interest among the post-samurai age Japanese... Heishichiro Okuse, the retired mayor of Iga-Ueno City, is an aging scholar of historical ninjutsu writings and not a practitioner as was reported in a popular English language book on Japan's ninja... Yumio Nawa, another teacher reported to be teaching ninjutsu, is in reality an antique dealer who refers to himself as a ninjutsu kenuka (researcher of ninjutsu). Nawa does teach Japanese short chain and jo staff methods at a city recreation center every Saturday morning, but does not refer to his classical budo training group as a ninjutsu school.
And, from the 5th volume interview at the end of that book, we get this:
Q. Is there a Tibetan version of ninjutsu? (After asking Hayes about his explorations into Tibetan spiritual systems, and how they relate to his exploration of ninjutsu)
A. No. Ninjutsu is strictly a Japanese phenomenon. It never existed in other countries.
So, if you won't listen to us, Emilio (and that does beg the question, why are you here, then?), maybe you will listen to the words of Hayes... After all, you sem to have been so far. Maybe you missed this part?
OP
OP
emiliozapata
Green Belt
Chris, you seem to be an honorable chap, well versed in what you love.
My path is before me and me alone, and I walk it with pride and enjoyment.
I wish only to say one last thing. Those arts and people who deride "competition" arts fail to realize that defending yourself from an attacker is the ultimate competition. It is just that the stakes have been raised exponentially.
Best regards to you on your chosen path.
My path is before me and me alone, and I walk it with pride and enjoyment.
I wish only to say one last thing. Those arts and people who deride "competition" arts fail to realize that defending yourself from an attacker is the ultimate competition. It is just that the stakes have been raised exponentially.
Best regards to you on your chosen path.
OP
OP
emiliozapata
Green Belt
As an aside, I threw together some shots of some army stuff and made this
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From reading your comments on your youtube page (responses to deleted comments from others) it's pretty clear that your aim is to discredit or "expose" all forms of ninjutsu and carefully troll.
I won't entertain you any longer.
I won't entertain you any longer.
David Weatherly
Black Belt
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
No issue with you doing your own thing, Emilio, just that your path is not what you claim it to be nor what you name it after. And there is no derision of competition arts, simply the statement that they are very different to Ninjutsu, and are quite removed from real combat.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Okay, checked the video. Seriously, stop now. This is just for your kids, and you have a video of generic still shots of military training?! Then you continue to use the terms ninjItsu and shugen bujutsu (incorrectly and inappropriately)?! If you are doing your own thing, do it but be honest about it. If it is just for you and your kids, you have no reason to be here, nor posting anything on Youtube. With no congruent actions to your words, you have no credibility at all. So stop. Or come clean. Now.
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Let me make a suggestion here...
We've got someone who has admittedly made up his whole project, naming it from what he described as a made up language he created as a kid. Except for one word... or is it 4 words now that he created by jumbling up some Japanese words? Not a big deal, either way.
Every time someone answers, he gets a little bit of an ego stroke. "They don't understand me and they don't understand real ninjutsu." Ever see a kid or dog do something they ain't supposed to simply to get noticed? Attention is attention...
He has yet to provide the first glimpse of any actual martial arts, just video collages of playing with a tire and some military training... so at this point, I'm not even sure that there is any actual martial art involved!
Let me proffer an option... Let's just take advantage of the feature to put folks on Ignore, and have no more problems with it! I mean, it's not like we're going to change his mind, is it?
We've got someone who has admittedly made up his whole project, naming it from what he described as a made up language he created as a kid. Except for one word... or is it 4 words now that he created by jumbling up some Japanese words? Not a big deal, either way.
Every time someone answers, he gets a little bit of an ego stroke. "They don't understand me and they don't understand real ninjutsu." Ever see a kid or dog do something they ain't supposed to simply to get noticed? Attention is attention...
He has yet to provide the first glimpse of any actual martial arts, just video collages of playing with a tire and some military training... so at this point, I'm not even sure that there is any actual martial art involved!
Let me proffer an option... Let's just take advantage of the feature to put folks on Ignore, and have no more problems with it! I mean, it's not like we're going to change his mind, is it?
:feedtroll
