Chalk up one for poomse applications!

[bluekey88]

Had a really cool class experience the other day that I wanted to share. I'm in the middle of preparing for my 2nd dan test (October 23). One of the major requirements of this test is to create 7 self-defense techniques. These creations should come from different kinds of attacks, show a variety of defenses, and each defense has to, at some point, strike one of seven vital spots in the fron tof the face (crown of forehead, eyes, bridge of nose, tip of nose, philtrum, lower lip and chin).

As some of you may remember, my shcool is one of many schools that teaches the poomse but doesn't really do a lot with applications. I've gone to the owner to talk about doing more with realistic application derived from the Taguk poomse and have been given the go ahead to put together a seminar on this after I receive my 2nd dan. My instructor suggested that I work some of this stuff into my creations to present during my test.

So, I worked really hard to come up with some good solid self-defense techniques. Three of them I based off of poomse techs. We were reviewing thse in class yesterday and the instructor (not knowing my interest in poomse derived applications) like these three techs the best. He kept asking how I cam up with them and I just said that it was stuff that right in theTaeguk poomse.

I was working with a younger teen as myy partner and it was farily easy to toss him around. The isntructor, though is taller and slightly heavier than I (240lbs I'm guessing), nad he have me try the techs out on him while he tried very ahrd to foil my attempts. It was such a satisfyign feeling when he'd go flying across the matt and end up sprawled on the ground.

I just thoyght it was interesting that the techs that really stod out were the one I crafted with the Taeguk poomse in mind. I'm really hopefuly that my demonstration of these technqiues will be good advertsiement and incentive for other interested folks to do a special class or two with me at myschool.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Twin Fist]

cool

 

[Errant108]

This may be of some interest to you then.

 

[Miles]

This may be of some interest to you then.

Errant108, the link did not provide date & time info, can you specify?

 

[d1jinx]

have you ever practiced the taegueks as an application? another words, have a partner (or 4) attack and you perform the form. each pattern was designed as a "simulated" offense/defense. Try it. It places a whole new persprective on the form. Granted, you must know the form well enough to know what the attacking individual needs to do. Try it slow. Its more than just movements... its learning when to do hich moves for what attacks.... that has all been lost by the individuals who perform the forms. You'll be surprised at how much you learn from trying it.

 

[bluekey88]

I've not done that. May give it a try sometime. I've been deriving my current poomse application practice form the work of Ian Abernathy and Simon O'Neil (who specifically did some stuff witht he taeguk poomse). Rather than look at each poomse as a choregraphed scenario 9against 1-4 opponenets) they are conceived as a collection of techniques that share certain chartaeristics or themes. As you learn each poomse and decipher the applications your understanding of SD and your ability to apply them (with appropriate practice) is enhanced.

I'm now working on ways to take the stuff I've learned and personalize and unlock/create new stuf with what I know.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Errant108]

have you ever practiced the taegueks as an application? another words, have a partner (or 4) attack and you perform the form. each pattern was designed as a "simulated" offense/defense. Try it. It places a whole new persprective on the form. Granted, you must know the form well enough to know what the attacking individual needs to do. Try it slow. Its more than just movements... its learning when to do hich moves for what attacks.... that has all been lost by the individuals who perform the forms. You'll be surprised at how much you learn from trying it.

The problem is that this is dead training. If you "know what the attacker needs to do" you're in a choreographed dance, and not a self-defense drill.

 

[goingd]

I love form application... *sits back in bliss 'n such*

 

[granfire]

The problem is that this is dead training. If you "know what the attacker needs to do" you're in a choreographed dance, and not a self-defense drill.

All 1 step (or however many) sparring drills are like that. All drills are like that. But you have to have the 'Attacker does this' to get your moves down.

 

[goingd]

The problem is that this is dead training. If you "know what the attacker needs to do" you're in a choreographed dance, and not a self-defense drill.

I talked with someone once about Bruce Lee's opinion on forms - set patterns being completely unadaptable and all that. He said something I liked a lot: "The trick is practicing forms outside a set pattern."
That's just it - train with the individual techniques. Adapt them to different situations, add, remove, even have your partner surprise you. The "choreographed dance" is just a set up to get one ready to adapt.

^~^

 

[granfire]

I talked with someone once about Bruce Lee's opinion on forms - set patterns being completely unadaptable and all that. He said something I liked a lot: "The trick is practicing forms outside a set pattern."
That's just it - train with the individual techniques. Adapt them to different situations, add, remove, even have your partner surprise you. The "choreographed dance" is just a set up to get one ready to adapt.

^~^

I hear the Pink Panther theme.....

I think part of learning form is to know what the move does - or is supposed to do. I find it helps kids to train sharper, and it certainly makes me sharper when I know why I am doing this.

I mean, why reach down with the off hand in preparation for a low spearhand? Well, how else are you gonna grab the belt, pull the opponent close enough to 'pick the peach'....

 

[goingd]

I hear the Pink Panther theme.....

I think part of learning form is to know what the move does - or is supposed to do. I find it helps kids to train sharper, and it certainly makes me sharper when I know why I am doing this.

I mean, why reach down with the off hand in preparation for a low spearhand? Well, how else are you gonna grab the belt, pull the opponent close enough to 'pick the peach'....

That falls in line with what I follow about the 'motion between motion' concept. An spear hand, like you said, is more than just a spear hand - there is a first, initial move to set up the spear hand, and that is just as usable as the "primary" move.

 

[d1jinx]

The problem is that this is dead training. If you "know what the attacker needs to do" you're in a choreographed dance, and not a self-defense drill.

so is kicking a paddle... or having a SD partner grab you shirt. come to think about it anything you do that could be considered practice is a dead training. matter of fact, why even practice. why bother to learn the applications of each technique and how to apply them. its all a dead drill. Lets just go out on the street and figure it out and make it up as it happens....

 

[Manny]

Had a really cool class experience the other day that I wanted to share. I'm in the middle of preparing for my 2nd dan test (October 23). One of the major requirements of this test is to create 7 self-defense techniques. These creations should come from different kinds of attacks, show a variety of defenses, and each defense has to, at some point, strike one of seven vital spots in the fron tof the face (crown of forehead, eyes, bridge of nose, tip of nose, philtrum, lower lip and chin).

As some of you may remember, my shcool is one of many schools that teaches the poomse but doesn't really do a lot with applications. I've gone to the owner to talk about doing more with realistic application derived from the Taguk poomse and have been given the go ahead to put together a seminar on this after I receive my 2nd dan. My instructor suggested that I work some of this stuff into my creations to present during my test.

So, I worked really hard to come up with some good solid self-defense techniques. Three of them I based off of poomse techs. We were reviewing thse in class yesterday and the instructor (not knowing my interest in poomse derived applications) like these three techs the best. He kept asking how I cam up with them and I just said that it was stuff that right in theTaeguk poomse.

I was working with a younger teen as myy partner and it was farily easy to toss him around. The isntructor, though is taller and slightly heavier than I (240lbs I'm guessing), nad he have me try the techs out on him while he tried very ahrd to foil my attempts. It was such a satisfyign feeling when he'd go flying across the matt and end up sprawled on the ground.

I just thoyght it was interesting that the techs that really stod out were the one I crafted with the Taeguk poomse in mind. I'm really hopefuly that my demonstration of these technqiues will be good advertsiement and incentive for other interested folks to do a special class or two with me at myschool.

Peace,
Erik

Very nice sir¡! In fact I feel the same way, poomsae has very good moves to study and to aply in SD situations.

You will do a tremendous 2dan black belt test.

Manny

 

[Errant108]

so is kicking a paddle... or having a SD partner grab you shirt. come to think about it anything you do that could be considered practice is a dead training. matter of fact, why even practice. why bother to learn the applications of each technique and how to apply them. its all a dead drill. Lets just go out on the street and figure it out and make it up as it happens....

Because there actually is a better way to train those applications.

 

[punisher73]

I talked with someone once about Bruce Lee's opinion on forms - set patterns being completely unadaptable and all that. He said something I liked a lot: "The trick is practicing forms outside a set pattern."
That's just it - train with the individual techniques. Adapt them to different situations, add, remove, even have your partner surprise you. The "choreographed dance" is just a set up to get one ready to adapt.

^~^

BL isn't the best source for your study. People tend to forget (including himself) that he practiced forms throughout his development before he "had no form". Forms are like musical scales or learning to play a song, without a set pattern you aren't going to be able to learn what notes go together and have harmony. BL's approach (for a new student) is like setting a kid down in front of a piano and expecting that through randomly hitting notes over and over that some day he can play Mozart. Ain't gonna happen.

ALL drills are known ahead of time, while some approach more realism, it is NEVER the real thing. Again, like someone alluded to earlier from the Pink Panther...unless you pay someone to hide and attack you out of nowhere from hidden spots and times it isn't the "real thing".

BL's approach also doesn't account for anything that is found in a self-defense situation or address those scenarios, such as grabs etc.

 

[bluekey88]

I think the music analogy is a good one (and not just because I'm a musician). Regarding the aliveness issue and what constitutes training with alivenes...it's a continuum...and one should work all ranges of that continuum to be a well-rounded and more complete martial artist.

In music, it's very much like the divide between classical music and jazz, In classical music, one spends a lot of time and energy memorizing a piece note for note with great attention paid to reproducing exactly what the composer intended. A good classical musician will pick a part a piece phrase by phrase and note by note to come up with a way to perform that piece that brings it alive. In that way, they infuse a bit of themselves into the performance through a strict adherence to certain performance standards. People who do this can become amazing technicians. It's an amazing thing to watch a good classically trained musician do their thing. It's like learning kata and one-steps...not just learning th moves, but really internalizing the set and what it has to teach. This is a good thing.

In Jazz, the musical importance is placed on the performer rather than the composer. Emphasis is placed less on ones ability to memorize and recreate exactly a piece but rather their ability to improvise within the structure of the piece without losing the flavor or spirit of the piece. the ability to spontaneously compose music that works and isn't just a conglomeration of sounds with no rhyme or reason. This is more like sparring or randori. there's always a structure (rules or conventions) but each time it's different and one has to know what works in order to be successful.

In the middle of these two extremes is popular music (Rock, top 40, etc.) There is a composed element and there is an improvisational and freeplay element. Those fantastic rock guitar solos were very definitely improvised at some point, but then were crafted like a song until they became a permanent part of the song (in most cases). That's what i was doing here with this particular MA exercise.

I sat down with a partner and I knew I had to do something that would attack the crown of the forehead for instance. I spent some time thinking about the different tools I could use to reach that target, and finally settled on a leg attack (I feel that part of the head is a bit too hard for successful hand strikes....just a preference =...no flames please). from there I figured the attacker needed to be bent over to make that feasible. I then played around with this with my partner for awhile with him trying different attacks and my responding to them spontaneous;ly with a goal of getting him bent over and some part of my leg on his head. After awhile, something came out of that and we settled on an attack and a technique which I then practiced slowly. then with increasing resistance to make sure i could always make it work. Ultimately, i was rewarded with being able to recreate this against a moderately resisting opponent who really tried to foil me (by cheating because he knew what was coming ).

We didn't go all out...someone would've gotten hurt. But, with repeated practice at this and other techs and my working through scenarios and working out other solutions...combining that with freeplay (sparring, randori, etc) my skills and ability to defend myself will improve.

People at my test are just going to see me performing these techniques and it will be like a classical music perfomrance...what they will not see is the real benefit was from the composition of the performance in the first place. The journey is more important than the destination.

Peace,
Erik

 

[goingd]

BL isn't the best source for your study. People tend to forget (including himself) that he practiced forms throughout his development before he "had no form". Forms are like musical scales or learning to play a song, without a set pattern you aren't going to be able to learn what notes go together and have harmony. BL's approach (for a new student) is like setting a kid down in front of a piano and expecting that through randomly hitting notes over and over that some day he can play Mozart. Ain't gonna happen.

ALL drills are known ahead of time, while some approach more realism, it is NEVER the real thing. Again, like someone alluded to earlier from the Pink Panther...unless you pay someone to hide and attack you out of nowhere from hidden spots and times it isn't the "real thing".

BL's approach also doesn't account for anything that is found in a self-defense situation or address those scenarios, such as grabs etc.

Try then, to better understand what I meant. I will reword:
Set patterns are incredibly useful. Practicing them outside of a set pattern is what makes them work. Like I already said, the choreographed "dance" is a set up. Learn the forms with a completely open mind. Practice them like you would a sheet of music, then like a free spirited musician add your touch to it! But learn it first one way, so that it can become every way. Every motion is capable of every execution. One should teach himself to use the techniques beyond one simple application. Teach yourself to lock and drop using the motions of a knife hand. Teach yourself to sip tea using a low block! Some might not want to see the purpose in such a thing, but it leads to a much deeper understanding.

As to the music comparison, I love it! All things physical are relative. Beyond that all art is relative! I don't think, if Bruce Lee were a piano teacher, that he would simply expect a student to create music with harmony. Rather I think he would have guided them to teach him or herself. "Does that note sound good after that note?" That is a wonderful teaching method to me! Having to ask yourself whether or not something works and decide for yourself, and test for yourself without just being told forces you to understand better what it is you're trying to learn! I don't mean for it to sound as blatant as it may be coming off. It is what works for me. It is what I've been taught and how I teach. I love the martial arts, but moreover I love it as an outlet to pure art.

Forgive me for the rant. ^~^

 

[punisher73]

Try then, to better understand what I meant. I will reword:
Set patterns are incredibly useful. Practicing them outside of a set pattern is what makes them work. Like I already said, the choreographed "dance" is a set up. Learn the forms with a completely open mind. Practice them like you would a sheet of music, then like a free spirited musician add your touch to it! But learn it first one way, so that it can become every way. Every motion is capable of every execution. One should teach himself to use the techniques beyond one simple application. Teach yourself to lock and drop using the motions of a knife hand. Teach yourself to sip tea using a low block! Some might not want to see the purpose in such a thing, but it leads to a much deeper understanding.


Forgive me for the rant. ^~^

Thanks for the clarification. I think we are on the same page. Usually when I see that type of quote it is in regards to "kata is useless" crowd and they see no good in it and then will practice short preset shadow sparring drills and not see the irony of it.

I also agree with Bluekey that "aliveness" is a spectrum of training. Again, I see too many people talk about aliveness and think that it only means all out sparring every time and if you aren't then you aren't really training. Football players don't play a "real game" every practice and they have preset plays they practice and hone all the time. It's only when you understand the play and it deviates in realtime can you make SMART adjustments according to the situation instead of just a kneejerk reaction.

Anyways, not to derail the thread....LOL

I don't think that alot of people give credit for how much the creators of katas knew about self-defense. There isn't anything out there in the martial arts world that didn't exist back then in hand to hand combat (not talking weapons at this point). Also, it is important to remember that MA's were designed for a civilian self-defense system (different than what military or police would face) and it is also not designed for use in a duel (sporting match) so it's answers to attacks are just that, an answer for a surprise attack where your goal is to hurt/stun/incapacitate your attacker and then get away. It is meant to be quick and not a drawn out thing. A VERY good book that addresses some of these things along the line of Abernathy etc. is "The Way of Kata" by Wilder and Kane. It uses Goju-Ryu kata as a template, but the principles would apply to any traditional kata.

 

[bluekey88]

I have that book and it is one of the resources I used to develop my skills at poomse/kata interpretation.

Peace,
Erik