Kosho Ryu?

[Kosho-Monk]

The problem is when"The Natural Laws of Kosho guide us." The rank structure tends to be abused. Folks who put in a lot of work tend to get upset when others get pushed ahead, sometimes for political reasons. It has happened to more than one in the system.

kk

That brings up an interesting point... is Kosho the study of katas and memorization of other information or is it the study of Natural Law and learning how to apply the knowledge gained from that study into one's life? Is Kosho the study of how to beat people up or is the study of how to create peace in one's life?

Or perhaps Kosho is just study. And what the students studies depends on what their calling is. And perhaps their interests change, and keep changing, over time thus creating a well-rounded practitioner after many many years.


-John

 

[Carol]

The handbook might be fine for some schools, but not all. I believe firmly that I would put myself out of business if I required all of that of my students.

That speaks volumes.

 

[sksk]

For any one interested Shihan Tony DiSarro will be doing A Kosho Ryu Kempo clinic on the curriculum and concepts of Kosho. I have the dates, times and location in the events section. Any one whom is close by is welcome to attend it could help answer some of the questions that have been brought up.

All the best

George

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Carol,

Please explain your comment? Thanks.


-John

 

[kelly keltner]

In my school I have a small curriculum of required material for rank promotions. You must not only memorize but also be able to perform to a certain level of proficiency. Students who wish to learn extra things can take private lessons, sign up for in-house seminars or even sometimes just ask me between classes.

This seems to work well and keeps things running smoothly. It also helps me in choosing students who can be leaders in my school. The ones who work harder are the ones who will be covering my classes when I can't be there. And everyone in my school accepts that as a good way to do it.

I have nearly 100 students in a very small town. And by this Fall I believe I will break the 100 mark. Not bad for being open fulltime for less than one year, I think.

Take care,
John


P.S. Kelly, please don't keep to yourself. I would really like to hear (read) your thoughts about Kosho.

John I have re-read your post a couple of times. I truly appreciate that you would like to hear (read) my opinions about Kosho. I have already made my thoughts known more than I problably should have. With that I will take my leave and go back into keyboard retirement and keep to myself. Kosho can be a beautiful art if the practitioner allows it. Keep studying guys it can only enhance everything you do.

kk

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Hello John!
I'm glad to hear things are going well at your school. I hope to visit you again soon.

That brings up an interesting point... is Kosho the study of katas and memorization of other information or is it the study of Natural Law and learning how to apply the knowledge gained from that study into one's life? Is Kosho the study of how to beat people up or is the study of how to create peace in one's life?

This is my opinion, not that it matters much, but my answer to both of your questions is that Kosho is all of these things. Personally, I think that anyone that truly wants to study Kosho would want to learn all of the art -the katas, the weaponry, swordsmanship, calligraphy, etc. That's not to say that a person can not study part of the art but then they are not studying the full art just the portion that is their preference.

The beauty of Kosho principles and philosophy is their universal nature. They can be applied to all arts. The idea of all the different studies is to ingrain the principles by looking for them and applying them to the different areas of study as well as other martial arts (in What is True Self Defense?, Mitose stated that the Kosho Monks would study all MA) leading ultimately every area of your life. One could very well take the Kosho principles and apply them to any art. For example: One could apply the principles to wing chung techniques and in the end they would be doing a form of kosho that retains a wing chung flavor or a form of wing chung with kosho flavor. They could do that. But by extracting what they want from kosho rather than embracing the full art, doesn't that display a retention of prejudice? Doesn't retaining prejudice violate the core of kosho philosophy?

Or perhaps Kosho is just study. And what the students studies depends on what their calling is. And perhaps their interests change, and keep changing, over time thus creating a well-rounded practitioner after many many years.

That is the goal of Kosho. That is a beautiful peice of philosophy and in principle right and true but unfortunately in application it could fall miserably short. In reality people need instruction & accountability to learn lessons they don't want to and to break down their prejudices. A teacher and a way to follow, a path to go down, or even a curricullum are essential.

Just my thoughts and opinions as this is a discussion board where people can voice their opinions, right or wrong. Again, I don't speak for all of Kosho - I suggest you ask Hanshi if you really want to know.

_Don Flatt

 

[sksk]

I believe we have established that there is a curriculum for Kosho that teachers and students are expected to know and teach. If one doe's not have that info than it is their responsibility to seek out the knowledge and know the minimum standard of that particular material. We must remember that what is taught by Hanshi Juchnik in a seminar represents a small portion of the kosho curriculum and that Hanshi is teaching for a general audience, some of which may never even have heard of Kosho. Also Seminars are not they same, as classroom drills and practices. different goals and aims. Learning any martial art is a responsibility. A responsibility to ourselves, our teachers, and our students. We all need to remember that.

All the best

George

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Learning any martial art is a responsibility. A responsibility to ourselves, our teachers, and our students. We all need to remember that.

I couldn't have said it better. Unfortunately, people are lazy and that's why standards are needed.

_Don Flatt

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Unfortunately, people are lazy and that's why standards are needed.

I could argue that the lazy ones are the students that simply follow along and never think for themselves. It's pretty easy just to do what you're told and never question why things are done a certain way. Of course, not everyone is cut out to be a leader.

If one doe's not have that info than it is their responsibility to seek out the knowledge and know the minimum standard of that particular material.

The teacher's job is to teach. If there is required material than the teacher has the responsibility to inform the students and teach the required material during classes. And no student should be promoted without the understanding of the material required.

Can you imagine going to college and them telling you after you graduated what the required subjects were and now it was time to learn them for your degree? Sounds kind of foolish... doesn't it? And when you were there, in class, what were you learning anyway? Why didn't the teacher teach the required stuff?

I don't promote my students unless they are ready. I believe schools/teachers that promote students before they are ready tend to do so because they are wanting some kind of financial gain.


I have more to say on this but I need to go now. I look foward to chatting about this.


-John

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Also Seminars are not the same, as classroom drills and practices. different goals and aims.

I agree with this. So, why then would someone who doesn't understand the drills and practices of a Kosho class (not seminar) be given a license to teach and authority to promote if they don't have this stuff? Why give (charge a $300 fee for, actually) the license and then require them to know their stuff?

It's the same as someone saying you can be a shihan if you just pay $500. Then, after you get the rank/title, they say "and now you have to learn all this stuff so you don't look foolish." Isn't that backwards?

Can you imagine if a doctor was given a license to practice medicine before actually having the knowledge to help patients properly? Or how about a high school teacher getting in front of the classroom without having been taught the subect?

The beauty of Kosho principles and philosophy is their universal nature. They can be applied to all arts. The idea of all the different studies is to ingrain the principles by looking for them and applying them to the different areas of study as well as other martial arts (in What is True Self Defense?, Mitose stated that the Kosho Monks would study all MA) leading ultimately every area of your life. One could very well take the Kosho principles and apply them to any art. For example: One could apply the principles to wing chung techniques and in the end they would be doing a form of kosho that retains a wing chung flavor or a form of wing chung with kosho flavor. They could do that. But by extracting what they want from kosho rather than embracing the full art, doesn't that display a retention of prejudice? Doesn't retaining prejudice violate the core of kosho philosophy?

Not studying something doesn't mean that you're being prejudice - in the bad way. Saying to others that you wouldn't study something because it sucks would be showing prejudice. If you don't eat a certain food you are "retaining prejudice" based on the fact you don't care for it. Is that really so bad? Well, maybe it is if you eat only unhealthy food and end up getting really fat.

According to the Kai website, Kosho or Kempo for that matter is the study of understanding one's self. If you understand that your life is leading you in the direction of a focused practice - then you should do it. Spreading yourself out so thin that you can't really become proficient in any aspect is foolish, I think.

I view it as a jack-of-all-trades and master of none.


Let's go back to the curriculum of Kosho. What did Mitose teach as a curriculum? He certainly didn't teach all of the 27 forms in the Kata no Michi text. Or the numerous sword katas that are taught. In fact, not a single form in the Kata no Michi book is a Kosho only form that comes from Mitose or earlier. The Kosho only forms were created by Hanshi Juchnik. And we certainly can't claim them as being part of a 750 year old art... right?

So what is the art that's 750 years old? Certainly not what Mitose taught. I think most people now agree that Mitose didn't train in Japan at the Chaka In temple and he "borrowed" ideas from other martial artists to teach Kenpo Jujitsu in Hawaii.

Even Hanshi Juchnik has said publicly on several occassions that Mitose was either a saint or the devil and he didn't know which. Well, if James Mitose was the devil than I don't think we should be following his teachings or examples.

Anyway, I have to get to classes. I like to teach my students the things they need to know for rank promotions. It's kind of whay they expect from me.


Take care,
John


P.S. Jesse Dwire said it should be manditory to have a sarcasm meter. Some of what I said really should be metered at a 3 or 4. If you are offended by any of my statements just realize that I might be saying it with the sarcastic tone. It's kind of what I like to do!

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Not studying something doesn't mean that you're being prejudice - in the bad way. Saying to others that you wouldn't study something because it sucks would be showing prejudice. If you don't eat a certain food you are "retaining prejudice" based on the fact you don't care for it. Is that really so bad? Well, maybe it is if you eat only unhealthy food and end up getting really fat.

From what I know about healthy diet is that balance is the key. Too much of any food "healthy" or "unhealthy" can create deficiencies and excesses of various nutrients. For example: many hardcore vegetarians will jaundice without appropriate supplements. The unfortunate thing is that when we have excess of any nutrient we actually will begin to crave that nutrient. ie. Eat too much chocolate for too long and you will develop cravings for chocolate or regular consumption of caffiene leads to cravings for more caffiene. My point is eating based on preference alone can lead to unhealthy imbalance. Appropriate guidance can lead us to balanced diets both in a martial sense and in our choices of food.

According to the Kai website, Kosho or Kempo for that matter is the study of understanding one's self. If you understand that your life is leading you in the direction of a focused practice - then you should do it. Spreading yourself out so thin that you can't really become proficient in any aspect is foolish, I think.

I view it as a jack-of-all-trades and master of none.

That's a good point and hence why I think Kosho is a lifelong study. Like you said before after many years one becomes a well rounded practitioner.

Let's go back to the curriculum of Kosho. What did Mitose teach as a curriculum? He certainly didn't teach all of the 27 forms in the Kata no Michi text. Or the numerous sword katas that are taught. In fact, not a single form in the Kata no Michi book is a Kosho only form that comes from Mitose or earlier. The Kosho only forms were created by Hanshi Juchnik. And we certainly can't claim them as being part of a 750 year old art... right?

Agreed. With the exception of Neko Buto, Naihanchi, & Naihano.

So what is the art that's 750 years old? Certainly not what Mitose taught. I think most people now agree that Mitose didn't train in Japan at the Chaka In temple and he "borrowed" ideas from other martial artists to teach Kenpo Jujitsu in Hawaii.

I don't think anyone perports to teach as was taught 750 years ago or even as it was taught 61 years ago. Kosho is a living art and should be taught as it is to be taught today but the answer as to how it should be taught should come from Juchnik. I agree that 29 Kata is alot too learn for shodan and perhaps the material should be spread out more but that's not my place to do but rather than discard the material shouldn't we seek it out and learn it ourselves then ask Hanshi how to pass it on?

Even Hanshi Juchnik has said publicly on several occassions that Mitose was either a saint or the devil and he didn't know which. Well, if James Mitose was the devil than I don't think we should be following his teachings or examples.

Then you should ask yourself why you teach them.

_Don Flatt

 

[kosho]

WOW,
I have Hanshi coming in December. He and I have had a few talks about things. Teaching Kosho, Training In Kosho, And also Running a dojo.
People tend to throw Up all over the place.

Sensei Kelly Told me over dinner 1 time. In the Kia Hanshi has many things set up. You want to learn how to kick well. Go see Terry Dow, You want to learn sword, go see Mike Brown or Jeff d. You want to learn how to escape go see Uncle larry, you want to learn ETC... Not all Kosho Teachers or students are totally well rounded. Thats what is great about kosho you get what you can and train hard and follow a peacful heart...

I have seen and trained with many people out there. There are only a few true master out there in the real world. We are lucky to have one in Jaffery Nh.

Everyone has there opinion we can go back and forth on who is right.
Hanshi himself. tells you to learn something then forget it. He also has said I will come to your Dojo and Throw up all over the place the teacher will clean it up after I have left... Some may know what I mean others do not.
Those who have Hanshi At there dojo know what I mean.

I have Hanshi coming in DECEMBER. I totally look forward to this.

I also have the Kyu DVDS and about 200 plus more on Kosho Ryu Kempo
I teach my students what I have learned from them and What I have learned for Pat Kelly and Hanshi.
But what I teach the most is what I have learned over the past 3 plus years under John evans, in what I believe is Koshi Ryu Kempo and Its teachings.

Kosho is a study of ones self and the Natural Laws that keep Mother earth Happy... Not 300 plus katas. I myself have around 50 katas Hanshi last I knew had about 300 plus in his head. But thats why he is Hanshi...

well Please all take and be well. But there is still some Shaolin in Me LOL
people who know me know what that means......

KOSHO

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Sensei Kelly Told me over dinner 1 time. In the Kia Hanshi has many things set up. You want to learn how to kick well. Go see Terry Dow, You want to learn sword, go see Mike Brown or Jeff d. You want to learn how to escape go see Uncle larry, you want to learn ETC... Not all Kosho Teachers or students are totally well rounded. Thats what is great about kosho you get what you can and train hard and follow a peacful heart...

Kosho is not about strict adherence to a curricullum. Juchnik Hanshi strikes me as a free spirit. The curricullum represents a minimum standard of what one should study on the path to self-mastery in Kosho. It's all out there for us to learn - I've heard Hanshi say the same things Kelly Sensei told you.

Sensei means teacher it also means one who has gone before. A sensei has the responsibility to go before their students and acquire the knowledge and skills to pass on to their students. No one ever said that when you graduate to yudansha that learning stops. Thankfully, we have plenty of material. Thankfully the material is vast and diverse so that their will be things you don't want to do or don't understand why we have to study them. Don't like sword? Don't understand how it connects? Study it and practice it until you do. Seek out Jeff Driscoll or Mike Brown.

_Don Flatt

 

[kosho]

I think I said all that??????? Don are you going to the Aug. 18th seminar in CT? If so I will see you there. I am going with some of my students and maybe others. I go to as many seminars as I can in the Kia to help out others schools and to learn and train. I also do BJJ seminars and train with with a open mind. I now must move twice and bring my dog to the groomers...
before I 7 / 10 LOL.
Kosho

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Steve,

I'll be at the seminar if my environment permits. I'll at least make the end as I have a private lesson with Disarro Sensei after it.

_Don

 

[kosho]

What I like about this place here is we all have a commen goal. How we get there is are own issue. what works well for you may not work well for me and what not. But I do not feel we should be asked to do things that just make one not happy just because others feel that is what you need to do. Hanshi is a man he is not a GOD. (Yes he is the man) but you know what I mean. He passes on info to people and not always the same way...
Pat kelly sensei has things that other do not have and may never have...
Thats hanshi's way of teaching. Maybe because we are all on are own paths... Hanshi has shown me things That My teacher did not have...

This will be may last post for some time as I feel others are walking on egg shells.

Kosho

 

[BlackCatBonz]

I agree with this. So, why then would someone who doesn't understand the drills and practices of a Kosho class (not seminar) be given a license to teach and authority to promote if they don't have this stuff? Why give (charge a $300 fee for, actually) the license and then require them to know their stuff?

It's the same as someone saying you can be a shihan if you just pay $500. Then, after you get the rank/title, they say "and now you have to learn all this stuff so you don't look foolish." Isn't that backwards?

Can you imagine if a doctor was given a license to practice medicine before actually having the knowledge to help patients properly? Or how about a high school teacher getting in front of the classroom without having been taught the subect?

John, the sad reality is, lots of people get rank before knowing the required material.....it's called networking.

Lots of high school level teachers get in front of a class and attempt to teach subject material they aren't familiar with......they just fake their way through it......much the same way martial arts teachers do when they don't have the stuff.

Sometimes when a system wants to expand their borders, they allow people that have attended a few seminars to act as ambassadors. They are given some token rank and start to teach what they have been learning at the seminars until such time that they are brought up to speed with the rest of the core group.

Doesn't make it right......but it happens.

 

[MJS]

I think I said all that??????? Don are you going to the Aug. 18th seminar in CT? If so I will see you there. I am going with some of my students and maybe others. I go to as many seminars as I can in the Kia to help out others schools and to learn and train. I also do BJJ seminars and train with with a open mind. I now must move twice and bring my dog to the groomers...
before I 7 / 10 LOL.
Kosho

Where is the Aug 18th seminar going to be? Any details you could give?

Mike

 

[kosho]

Shihan Tony DiSarro will be teaching clinic on Kosho curriculum and concepts.

Date: Sat. August 18th

Time: 12:00 - 3:00 p.m.

Cost: $40.00

Karate America
211 Greenwood Ave.
Bethel,CT 06801
203-792-1050

This seminar is open to all styles and would be very helpful to any Kosho Practioner. Any one intersted in attending please call Sensei George Chaber 203-792-1050

 

[Kosho-Monk]

I have been thinking about some of my posts on this thread and realized that many of my points were not understood. And it's likely they really can't be understood via words.

I guess that's much like martial arts - it's really hard to understand what an art is all about by reading someone's posts on a message board. It is much easier to stand face to face with someone and feel what the art is all about.

This will be my last post on this site indefinately. I enjoy posting but I must realize that misunderstood sentences can be harmful to myself, others I respect and the martial arts that I love. And I do not wish to create negative feelings between anyone who reads my words incorrectly.

I invite anyone who wishes to understand the art of Kosho to visit me personally or even better another Kosho teacher - like Hanshi Bruce Juchnik.


Take care & train hard,
John Evans
www.EvansKempo.com