Kokusai Dentokan Bugei Renmei

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GojuBujin

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Osu,

A webiste and School you will want to visit

http://www.inigmasoft.com/dentokan

Kokusai Dentokan Bugei Renmei (International House of Tradition Martial Arts Federation): Founded in 1994 by Roy J. Hobbs as a means of providing instruction, and certification, in the various martial arts he has studied and practiced for over 40 years. The Dentokan is affiliated with the following Japanese/Okinawan groups: Okinawa Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do Seidokan Kyokai, All Okinawa Seidokan Karate Kobudo Association, KoKoDo (Ju-Jutsu) Renmei, and All Japan Seibukan Martial Arts Association.

Mission: To preserve and teach the traditional martial arts of Japan (including Okinawa). To accomplish this in an environment free of intimidation, politics, and other distracters. We further seek to foster a spirit of fellowship and understanding, welcoming all like-minded individuals, regardless of race, gender, ethnic background, religion, national origin, or physical handicap.

Vision: Build healthy minds, bodies, and spirits through the study of traditional martial arts.

Arts Represented: Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do, Goju-Ryu Karate-Do, Toratsuru-Ryu Kenpo, Okinawa Kobudo, Ju-Jutsu/Aiki-Jutsu, and Iai-Jutsu.

Location: Sensei Hobbs now lives and teaches In O'fallon, Illinois U.S.A. approximately 15 miles east of St. Louis, Missouri Please Email Sensei Hobbs for training times and location


Michael C. Byrd
 

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Several extra copies of this post have been removed from various fora.

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GojuBujin

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Ok...I'm not entirely sure why...Since the school encompasses all the arts that it was posted in.

Arts Represented: Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do, Goju-Ryu Karate-Do, Toratsuru-Ryu Kenpo, Okinawa Kobudo, Ju-Jutsu/Aiki-Jutsu, and Iai-Jutsu.

Perhaps I missed a rule somewhere....Sorry.

Michael C. Byrd
 

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See Rule #6 here. Unfortunately the reasoning "My post is on-topic here" applied to a great many posts so we find it best to enforce this rule.

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GojuBujin

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Osu,

Alrighty, point taken, perhaps in a few months it would be ok to put this up in another forum.

Apologies Again.

Michael C. Byrd
 

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Originally posted by GojuBujin
Alrighty, point taken, perhaps in a few months it would be ok to put this up in another forum.

Yes, absolutely! That would be fine. Thanks for understanding!

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Aegis

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In 40 years the man claims to have:

4 10th dans
3 9th dans
3 8th dans
1 7th dan
and a 5th dan.

Along with various Menkyo awards. To me that sounds just a little on the implausible side.
 
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Pyros

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Originally posted by Aegis
To me that sounds just a little on the implausible side.

Well, it all depends on the system's ranking requirements. If he meets the requirements, what's the problem? All arts have different requirements, some arts for example, allow opening a dojo at 1. dan, some require 5. dan so one would apparently need to compare the 1. dan to the 5. dan between those two arts. It would also be normal to assume one may get the 5th dan in apprx. same amount of years as the other style gives 1st. Some arts have new techniques only up till 1. or 2. dan, some have up till 8th and so on. There are arts where 5. dan is the highest you can get! Some go up to 10 or even higher I have heard. And so on ad nauseatum.

Not to say anything about the legitimacy of the people at hand, but just to make it clear we cannot directly compare dan per dan between arts.
 
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Dave Fulton

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Originally posted by Aegis
In 40 years the man claims to have:

4 10th dans
3 9th dans
3 8th dans
1 7th dan
and a 5th dan.

Along with various Menkyo awards. To me that sounds just a little on the implausible side.

First, Hobbs Sensei has a love for Budo that, when I studied with him, bordered on being religious. It would not be unusual for him to be learning from more than one sensei consecutively either.

Second, several of the arts listed in his biography are very closely related. For example, KoKoDo Ju-jutsu was founded by one of Hobbs Sensei's senseis at the Hakko-Ryu Ju-Jutsu Hombu Dojo. So, his Menkyo Kaiden in KoKoDo is built upon the foundation laid by his Menkyo Shihan in Hakko-Ryu. Further, the All Okinawa Seidokan Karate Kobudo Association was founded by Shian Toma Sensei, who studied under Seiki Toma Sensei who founded the Okinawa Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do Seidokan Kyokai. Both of these systems are from the Kyan lineage of Shorin-ryu. You'll also note that, in some cases, he has been awarded more than one rank from the same organization or that some of the organizations awarded him rank under both the modern Dan system and the old Menkyo system, e.g. "Kudan, Seidokan Karate Kobudo, All Okinawa Seidokan Karate Kobudo Association, Okinawa", "Hachidan, Seidokan Toide/Tuite (Grappling), All Okinawa Seidokan Karate Kobudo Association, Okinawa" and "Shihan Menkyo, Seidokan Kobu-Jutsu, All Okinawa Seidokan Karate Kobudo Association, Okinawa". In this case, three ranks awarded (2 Dan grades and 1 Menkyo) from the same organization. Also, Goshin Budo is basically the ju-jutsu developed by the late Shogo Kuniba Soke, who was the head of the Seishinkai, which also taught Motobu-hu Shito-ryu Karate. Shito-Ryu, being mix of Kyan lineage Shorin-Ryu and Goju-Ryu karate, laid the foundation for Hobbs Sensei's study of both Shorin-Ryu and Goju-Ryu karate when he was on Okinawa.

Finally, it takes a lot less time to learn a style of karate (or ju-jutsu) once you have developed a solid foundation in another style of karate (or ju-jutsu), because it becomes a matter of learning the peculiarities of the new style rather than starting from square one.

Admittedly, Hobbs Sensei was my teacher, but nonetheless I think that if you look at his credentials closely and take my previous comments into consideration, you will find that his accomplishments are not implausible.

Ask anyone who has trained with him and they'll tell you that his knowledge of Budo runs wide and deep. Better yet, train with him and find out for yourself.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton
 
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RyuShiKan

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It's too bad that if Hobbs walked into any Okinawan dojo and claimed those 10th dans were the real deal they would laugh their *** off at him. The only way you can get that much rank is to buy it. Which is why Hobbs is most likely connected in some to the infamous Jukkokai Dan/Soke factory.

Only the uninitiated would believe he could get all that rank..
 
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RyuShiKan

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You will also notice on his and other lofty rank claimers the new fad of having your photo taken with the famous Karateka in Okinawa. People have started using this to qualify their bogus ranks..its like see I was there so my rank must be legit.
If I had a dime for every time I could have done that Bill Gates would workin for me.
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by Dave Fulton


Finally, it takes a lot less time to learn a style of karate (or ju-jutsu) once you have developed a solid foundation in another style of karate (or ju-jutsu), because it becomes a matter of learning the peculiarities of the new style rather than starting from square one.

No thats not true.
I spend half my time re-educating dan ranked students over the basics because of the some of the crap they have learned elsewhere. It takes a long time to undue then re-teach someone something than starting with a blank page.
Teaching them how to block is my biggest chore.

Originally posted by Dave Fulton
Admittedly, Hobbs Sensei was my teacher, but nonetheless I think that if you look at his credentials closely and take my previous comments into consideration, you will find that his accomplishments are not implausible.

He may have some skill but there is no freakin all those dan ranks are legit.
 
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RyuShiKan

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Just as a side note:
It is usually the guys that say I dont know much and dont make outrageous claims to rank that are the best.

In Japanese they have a saying for them:

The wise eagle hides its claws.

Those are the guys that give me the willys.
 
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Dave Fulton

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Mr. Rousselot,

I do not represent Hobbs Sensei or his organization and I do not want to get into a pi$$ing match with you, which is the direction that you seem to be taking this discussion given the tone of your comments. Therefore, I will suggest that you take up your concerns with Hobbs Sensei directly.

However, as long as you have bring up legitimacy, "outrageous claims" and such, I have a question about something that I read on your web site. To quote:

"The Uhugushuku family is famous for their karate and kobudo techniques. The 6Ebo and 4Ejo were the families specialty, although they possessed great skill with all weapons and empty hand techniques. Mr. Oyata became Mr. Uhugushukus personal student and trained with him daily.
Mr. Uhugushuku expressed the importance of kata training as a way to learn and practice tuite and kyusho technique. He gave Mr. Oyata problems and ideas to discover hidden meanings in the kata.
Because of his ability Mr. Oyata was introduced to a friend of Mr. Uhugushukus named Mr. Wakinaguri, who specialized in special striking techniques called Kyusho jutsu. Mr. Wakinaguri taught how to discover the bodies weak points and vital areas as well as how to strike them.
With this knowledge he began to research kata and to discover their hidden meanings. Mr. Uhugushuku awarded Mr. Oyata with a Menkyo Kai Den, naming him as the sole heir to the Uhugushuku family system of karate and kobudo.
Upon the death of his two masters Mr. Oyata was accepted as an instructor/student at Nakamura Shigerus dojo.
The 12 empty hand kata that are taught in our system are Naihanchi 1~3 (Tekki in Japanese), Pinan 1~5 (Heian in Japanese), Passai, Kusanku, Niseishi, and Seisan. These were taught to Mr. Oyata by Mr. Nakamura"

The above quote was taken from the book "Ryukyu Kempo History and Basics", written by Kyoshi Jim Logue, via Robert Rousselot's (a.k.a. RyuShiKan) web site: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Palace/2264/RyuShiKanpage2.html I know that's not the proper citation format, but I think it will suffice.

If Mr. Uhugushuku "expressed the importance of kata training as a way to learn and practice tuite and kyusho technique" and "awarded Mr. Oyata with a Menkyo Kai Den, naming him as the sole heir to the Uhugushuku family system of karate and kobudo", then what happened to the Uhugushuku family kata and why does Mr. Oyata teach the kata that he learned from Nakamura Shigeru instead of the Uhugushuku family kata?

Now, I could draw ("jump to" would be more appropriate) a few conclusions and go off half-cocked making statements that are damaging by defaming someone's character or reputation, but that would not be fare to you, Mr. Logue, or Mr. Oyata ... would it?

I bring up the apparent inconsistency on your web site in order to make a point: That people owe each other at least a minimal amount of courtesy (i.e. "common courtesy) and that people claiming to follow the path of Budo should hold themselves to a higher standard. I think your behavior falls far short of either standard and believe that Mr. Oyata would agree. Your statements could probably also be construed as libel and in today's litigious world that is a "Pandora's Box" that I would rather not play with.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by Dave Fulton
Mr. Rousselot,
I do not represent Hobbs Sensei or his organization and I do not want to get into a pi$$ing match with you, which is the direction that you seem to be taking this discussion given the tone of your comments.

Not a pi$$ing match at all. Just using some common sense. Its odd how many of the Okinawans that train in Shorin ryu for 40+ years dont have the rank that Hobbs claims, and that is just in that art alon. Like I said Hobbs may have some skill but that many high dan gradesBULLSXXT!

Originally posted by Dave Fulton
Therefore, I will suggest that you take up your concerns with Hobbs Sensei directly.

What would be the point. I would still think he has no basis to claim that many high dan grades.


Originally posted by Dave Fulton
If Mr. Uhugushuku "expressed the importance of kata training as a way to learn and practice tuite and kyusho technique" and "awarded Mr. Oyata with a Menkyo Kai Den, naming him as the sole heir to the Uhugushuku family system of karate and kobudo", then what happened to the Uhugushuku family kata and why does Mr. Oyata teach the kata that he learned from Nakamura Shigeru instead of the Uhugushuku family kata?

You ask a good question. But you have some incorrect information.
Mr. Uhugushuku taught Mr. Oyata about 38 Kobudo kata and how to analyze kata he never taught him "Karate".
The first 2 empty hand kata Mr. Oyata learned from Mr. Wakinaguri were Shiho Hapo no Te & Shiho Hapo Miyo no te.
These were not taught by Mr. Nakamura.


Originally posted by Dave Fulton
I bring up the apparent inconsistency on your web site in order to make a point:

There was no inconsistency I just chose not to put all the information I had on the website,
and for a good reason.
A few years back some nut case made up some kata and started calling them Uhugushuku Bo, Jo and what notthe fact was they were not.


Originally posted by Dave Fulton
That people owe each other at least a minimal amount of courtesy

I dont owe people that claim bogus dan rank a thing. They insult the rest of the people that actually earn rank.


Originally posted by Dave Fulton
Your statements could probably also be construed as libel and in today's litigious world that is a "Pandora's Box" that I would rather not play with.

You might want to do an Internet search and just see how many cases are won for such a thing.not many. Even fewer that result from something over the Internet.

People are allowed to state their opinion on the Internet or anywhere.
However, if someone makes a false claim that someone is an axe murder or child molester with out any basis for proof then they could be held libel.
 
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RyuShiKan

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I have included some links to the infamous Rod Sacharnoski who was totally exposed on E-Budo (do a name search there)He runs a dan and Soke factory and even tried to sell University degrees for a while until the District Attorney in his state shut him down.

Sacharnoski also claims to have gotten some pretty lofty ranks just has Hobbs has done in fact they both claim rank from the All Okinawa Seidokan Motobu-ryu Martial Arts Union that is supposed to be run by Mr. Toma.
However Mr. Toma does not wish to discuss Sacharnoski..I wonder why?

Check the Notice down at the bottom of this website

http://www.somavp.com/seidokan/

Hobbs seems to run with a pretty shady group (Albert Church, Rod Sacharnoski) that also make some pretty outlandish claims to titles and ranks.

Sacharnoski:

http://members.cavtel.net/greatneck/Soke Sacharnoski.htm

http://www.midil.com/s1/selfdefense/plimshof/elite/sacharnoski.html

Hobbs:

http://home.attbi.com/~fbco/Hobbs03.htm

William Durbin.also connected to Sacharnoski and also has boat loads of high rank.

http://sweb.uky.edu/~wpcard0/linx.htm

These guys can claim as many 9th and 10th dans as they wantjust dont expect anyone with common sense in the martial arts to fall for it.
 
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GojuBujin

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Osu,

Don't know about the other guy but i can vouch for Sensei Hobbs, I think the photos prove it. If you would like at them.

http://www.dentokanhombu.com/photos.htm

I have touched and seen his certificates from Seiki Toma, Sensei Shian Toma, the certs from Hakko-Ryu school, the Koko Do school and all of the rest of them as well. There are pictures on the site of Sensei Hobbs holding these certificates in the presence of his teachers.

Most people that claim all of these ranks are fake, but in his case they are legit. I have trained with him and seen the kata also listed on the site.

http://www.dentokanhombu.com/kata.htm

Attached is a file Hakko-Ryu 8
Ryuho Okuyama Sensei presenting Shihan Menkyo Kaiden


If you like you can Email him yourself. [email protected]

Michael C. Byrd
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com
 

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GojuBujin

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This was Seiki Toma presenting me with Judan of Shorinryu Karate-Do & Kobudo. It took me completely by surprise, thus the goofy look
 

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GojuBujin

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Holding my Menkyo Kaiden, KoKoDo Hombu, 1998

michael
 

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RyuShiKan

Guest
Micheal,

Odd how I have some of those same photos of old masters too.
Just because he had had his picture taken with some folks in Okinawa and Japan doesnt prove anything other than he went to the dojo.

When I was at Mr. Suginos dojo (Toshiro Mifunes teacher and also responsible for the choreography for the 7 Samurai movie) we had people come in train for a day or two have their photo taken with Mr. Sugino and the next thing you know that photo is up on their website claiming rank from Mr. Sugino.

As for the menkyo photo.sorry I cant read the certificate from here.

Sachornoski used to wave around a dan certificate that he claimed was from Toma.
Fact of the matter was the kanji were wrong on the certificate and the stamp was an obvious fake but unless you could read Japanese you wouldnt know.


The 5th dan I can see as possible.maybe even the 7th dan, but the 4 10th dans, 3 9th dans and 3 8th dans no way.
 

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