Kokusai Dentokan Bugei Renmei

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RyuShiKan

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This puppy wins 1st prize.

It reads “Western Division House”. In Japanese it is read SeiBukan........doesn't make sense for the name of a dojo.
 

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RyuShiKan

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This reads “Karate Bujutsu”. and you will note this certificate is also typed out instead of hand written.
 

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RyuShiKan

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Here is another 10th dan given out by a 9th danÂ…..is it just me or is that weirdÂ…..you can just make out the guys rank at the bottom.
That would be like my students giving me dan rank
 

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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by Dave Fulton
Byrd Sensei,

In the broader scheme of things, I think Mr. Rousselot's approach of making unsubstantiated accusations, while admitting that he is unwilling to make an effort to objectively review any evidence, does more damage to his own reputation than it does to anyone else.

Is that substamtiated and objective enough for you???? Thanks for suppling the photos Micheal.........if I had an ounce of doubt they were fake before I have NONE now.....I am sure they are fake.

Why don't you give us your "expert" opinon Fulton......Hell for all you know the Japanese on there could have come off the menu at a sushi bar.


Originally posted by Dave Fulton
Unfortunately, there will always be people like Mr. Rousselot out there and they are a complete waste of time in my opinion. In a way I pitty them.

Unfortunate for the folks that try to BS the general public into thinking they can produce bogus rank and make it fly.


Fulton I think your nose is still out of joint because you tried to trip me up with your question about only having 12 kata a few posts back and got an answer you didnÂ’t expect.

Like I said before Hobbs may have some skillÂ…Â…he may be a legit 5th and or 7th dan, but four 10th dans and three 9thsÂ…Â…Â…no wayÂ…Â…..not unless they were bought anyway.

I stated my opinion and gave you photographic evidence to support itÂ…Â…Â….but hey, you believe whatever makes you feel all warm and fuzzy.
 
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GojuBujin

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Greetings Ryushikan,

I know you said that some of those are easy to fake. If they are easy to fake, couldnt that not mean they could also be real?

This is a link to my Goju Shodan Certificate fromt he Okinawa Goyu Kai (my Nidan hasn't arrived yet) I would like your analysis of it.

www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai/gojushodan.jpg

I will also be posting the remainder of the certificates to the website within the next severaly days and would appreicate your analysis of them as well.

Michael
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com
 
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GojuBujin

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Now from what I understand of the Seibukan, they are a similar organization to the Butoko Kai. They test people in "generic" terms and aren't really that style specific. I believe it is also a board that tests the people.

Michael
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com
 
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RyuShiKan

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Gojubujin,

I had a look at the 3 certificates you mentioned.
The one where Hobbs is sitting I canÂ’t see clearly enough, the one with the old man (Toma) in it I would not put much value in it.

Although the Toma in that photo and the younger more famous Toma that my teacher knows extremely well have the same last name that is where the similarities end.

The Toma in that photo is notorious for selling bloated ranks.
Another individual down in Okinawa by the name of Yabiku Takiya (a cab driver) also sells bloated ranks usually 8th dans and up.
I have said it before and I will say it againÂ…Â…Â…the dan mill factories were invented here. One example is the IBF, International Budo Federation (Kokusai Budoin).

The shodan certificate of yours looks real. Notice the “Hanko” (seal) on yours and the fake one on Hobbs’ (see photo). The one on your certificate is what they are supposed to look like. The one on Hobbs’ is too simple and therefore easy to forge. It is not the kind used on certificates or any other official document.

Also of note, yours is hand written and not printed out on a word processor. An Okinawan or Japanese teacher would NEVER issue a dan certficate that was made on a word rocessor.......especially one that is a 10th dan!
 

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GojuBujin

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Ryushikan,

I don't agree with you on practically everything, but I appreciate your opinnion and point of view. I don't know you, so Im always cautious, I appreciate your point of view.

Every teacher I have had up to Hobbs, has always complimented him very highly. He is my teacher he is a very humble man, I have no reason to doubt his credentials I have been training for 10yrs now and have trained in a couple of traditional dojo's his technique and karate and his depth of knowledge i have never run into before.

I'd like you to look at the other certs when i get them on the site. Putting one up from Hakko-ryu, Eiko Miyazato and Shian Toma Sensei and a few others.

Thanks

Michael
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by GojuBujin
Ryushikan,

I don't agree with you on practically everything, but I appreciate your opinnion and point of view. I don't know you, so Im always cautious, I appreciate your point of view.

Fair enough. Now let me ask youÂ…Â…..how would you spot a real dan certificated from a fake one? Could you?
I doubt most westerners could given the fact that so few of them a) have the language skills to recognize the difference and b) have seen enough legit certificates to know how to spot a fake one from a real one.

Originally posted by GojuBujin
Every teacher I have had up to Hobbs, has always complimented him very highly. He is my teacher he is a very humble man, I have no reason to doubt his credentials I have been training for 10yrs now and have trained in a couple of traditional dojo's his technique and karate and his depth of knowledge i have never run into before.

As I stated twice before Hobbs may have some skill, he maybe be a legit 5th and 7th dan like he claims, but there is no way in hell he is old enough or trained long enough to have obtained four 10th dans and three 9th dans.
Consider this: Most of the legit 10th dans in Okinawa and Japan are in their late 70Â’s or older and they only have one 10th dan that took them most of their lives to earn, so how is it Hobbs has piled up four of them plus three 9th dans and several menkyo kaiden and his only about 50 years old. Is he that much better than everyone else? I donÂ’t think so.

Originally posted by GojuBujin
I'd like you to look at the other certs when i get them on the site. Putting one up from Hakko-ryu, Eiko Miyazato and Shian Toma Sensei and a few others.

Look, the only reason why I took the time out of my busy day to go to the trouble of looking at those certificates and posting the comments and photos on them in this thread is because you kept pestering me with your emails and after I blocked your email address you pestered me again with PMs here on MT.
I figured you would stop after I posted my answers but I guess not.
Look if you or anyone else wants to believe those certificates are real then feel free to do so. I have posted my posted my thoughts on the matter and given reasons why I think so.
 
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GojuBujin

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Osu Ryushikan,

Hey I appreciate you taking the time out of your day to look at them. No, honestly I couldnt spot a fake even perhaps if my life depended on it.

If you would though when i get those other photos if you would look at a few more I would greatly appreciate it.

As far as pesetring....I'm just a persistant individual and do not give up easily ;)

Michael
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com
 
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RyuShiKan

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Goujubujin,

First off, for your edification the using (and over using) of the word “osu” is not considered polite. In fact it is considered rather uneducated.
People sometimes use it in the dojo but never outside of the dojo.

Originally posted by GojuBujin
No, honestly I couldnt spot a fake even perhaps if my life depended on it.

Well Gojubujin has admitted he wouldn’t know a real certificate from a fake one…how about you Fulton?…….got anything to “substantiate” your claim?

Originally posted by Dave Fulton
Â…Â…In the broader scheme of things, I think Mr. Rousselot's approach of making unsubstantiated accusations, while admitting that he is unwilling to make an effort to objectively review any evidence, does more damage to his own reputation than it does to anyone else.

IÂ’m sorryÂ…Â…what was that again? I think I gave you enough to chew on for a while.

Originally posted by Dave Fulton
Unfortunately, there will always be people like Mr. Rousselot out there and they are a complete waste of time in my opinion. In a way I pitty them.
Dave Fulton

Complete waste of time? Really?
And you based your opinion on what grounds, Fulton?……your Japanese Language ability?….:rofl: ....or some kid that has no Japanese Language ability and just said they were real?…..:rofl: …….WOW! Talk about “unsubstantiated”.:rofl:

Sorry guys I am finished looking at dan certificates for youÂ…Â…Â…I stated my opinion and it wonÂ’t change. Re-read my post before this one.
 
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GojuBujin

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Osu,

Well you'll just have to forgive us dumb Americans. Perhaps if If i'd have had the opportunities you have apparently had to learn in Okinawa and Japan and study the language I would be more up on things as you are.

I really wish you well though sir sincerely. You seem to have allot of built up hositility and anger though, reguardless.

You know even when I deal with people I consider to be less than knowledgable or don't really know what they are talking about, I don't let them know in such a fashion as you have. It simply isn't necessary.

Each to his own though. I suppose you have your reasons. Don't want to look at anymore, I don't blame you in the least. I was only hoping you would do me this last service.

Jee things can get so hostile on these threads.

Michael

www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by GojuBujin
Osu,

Well you'll just have to forgive us dumb Americans. Perhaps if If i'd have had the opportunities you have apparently had to learn in Okinawa and Japan and study the language I would be more up on things as you are.

Being cynical about it doesnÂ’t help your cause.
Any of the “opportunities” I got is because I made them.

Originally posted by GojuBujin
You seem to have allot of built up hositility and anger though, reguardless. You know even when I deal with people I consider to be less than knowledgable or don't really know what they are talking about, I don't let them know in such a fashion as you have. It simply isn't necessary.

Is that your professional opinion as a licensed Psychologist?
Not hostile at allÂ…Â…Â…maybe a little annoyed when 2 people that have no actual knowledge of a language and itÂ’s culture get arrogant and claim that I am making unsubstantiated accusations when I have spent almost 2 decades in that country and use the language daily. It would seem I have lived and worked here about as long as you have been alive too.
As for “dealing with people less knowledgeable”……..you can play the “victim” on this thread all you want. However, I have seen how you deal with people that are more knowledgeable so why should I think you treat someone who knows less any better.

You and Fulton seem to be a little bit too arrogant and opinionated on a subject for 2 people that have no actual knowledge of it.
 
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GojuBujin

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Osu,

If i acted arrogantly toward you it was unintentional and I apologize whole heartedly. I was also not really trying to be cynical I was being sincere as I know how.

I don't think it takes a psychologist to determine such.

You can believe what ever you want on how I treat people. It has been a flaw of mine that I'm really working hard toward eliminating. The logic of why should you do less than I have done. Why would you mimic or use the same bad behavior as someone else in any matter?

I really meant no offense to you. I never meant to be arrogant toward you if I was.

You're probably right, I shouldn't try to compete with someone who obviously seems to have somewhat of an idea what they're talking about. I will tell you this Ryushikan, I will be allot more careful of what I post on here in the future. I don't like arguing with people, most of the time I just prefer to let them belive what ever they wish. I should do no less on here. It simply isnt worth whether one is right or wrong. You have taught me that lesson anyway.

Michael

www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com
 
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RyuShiKan

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Gojubijin,

I agree.
Arguing here is somewhat of a waste of timeÂ…Â…..not much ever gets solved and it just makes bad blood.
I donÂ’t mind hearing peoples opinion on why they think this way or that. I learn a lot from that sort of discussion.
However, when people like Fulton make statements like this towards a person instead of the topic on these boards:

“In the broader scheme of things, I think Mr. Rousselot's approach of making unsubstantiated accusations, while admitting that he is unwilling to make an effort to objectively review any evidence, does more damage to his own reputation than it does to anyone else. Unfortunately, there will always be people like Mr. Rousselot out there and they are a complete waste of time in my opinion. In a way I pitty them.
Dave Fulton”


I have found they only do that when they are out of ammunition for logical reasoning and have nothing else to offer or support their views. They try “character assassination” as a means to justifying their arguments. As if by pointing to some character flaw they can justify their point of view.

I can understand you frustration by me saying some of those dan ranks are not real. I think most people would feel the same way.
One thing that you may not be aware of is the fact that many Japanese and Okinawan teachers look at foreigners, especially Americans, with high dan ranks and just laugh. Never to their face of course because, that would be considered rude to them, but I have heard several teachers here make the comment of “Over Ranked Yank” on more than a few occasions. Therefore, people that claim many high dan ranks not only do damage to themselves but every other foreigner that comes after them.
This is not only my view but also another American that trains fulltime in Okinawa.

“However, I am one of those hardcore Americans that feel no foreigner should ever be above the rank of 8th Dan. In addition, I think there should be only "one" non-Asian 8th Dan in any organization. I never did understand why any American/foreigner felt the need to attain a rank higher than 7th Degree.”
 
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GojuBujin

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Ryushikan,

I don't want their to be any bad blood between us. You make allot of sense in some of the things you have put on here. I don't agree with you on allot either, just call it faith or blind faith, or how ever you wish to look at it.

You are right, I think these things are beginning to become a complete waste of my time. Even when I'm right I'm wrong.

I agree with you on allot of the rank stuff, I believe probably somewhere in the 90% range or more of people who claim high dan ranks are fraud. I just usually laugh inside though, it accmplshes nothing by insulting them or their students. I believe in my teacher, as Im sure you do yours.

Thanks for the insight, If I didn't place some value on your opinion I wouldn't have asked you any of those things I asked you look at, and I wouldnt have challenged you in the first place.

what's better to say than osu, Konnichiwa? I used to spell it "oss" but i was corrected on that. I know its kind of a slang or generic term before u even mentioned it, i just use it...oh well.

Michael

www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
www.dentokanhombu.com
 
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Dave Fulton

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Mr. Rouselot,

I see you have been busy.

First and foremost, I agree with Michael, that you do seem to have a lot of hostility to vent. Granted, I'm not a trained, psychologist, just someone with a lot of personal experience with hostility in their past ... my own hostility and that of others. Fortunately, I have made a great deal of progress with regard to dealing with my own hostility as well as that of other people, which is why I haven't commented for a while. I was not, as you said, resorting to "character assassination" to support my views due to a lack of ability to continue a logical discussion. You were already doing enough of that and I simply was not going to join you. You seemed pretty darned hostile (to my perception) towards Hobbs Sensei, Michael and myself (without provocation I might add), and I didn't want to let your hostility suck me into looked to be nothing more than a pi$$ing match, so I was just going to walk away. I usually find that walking away works.

Which brings me to my second point. You keep hammering Michael over the head with comments that I made, which hardly seems like reasonable behavior. If you want to hammer someone over the head with my comments, then please direct your efforts towards the appropriate target ... me. I stood behind my comments when I made them and still do to the degree that I believe that a person who makes accusations without attempting to substantiate those accusations does more damage to themselves than to anyone else and truly is a waste of time. The fact that you reviewed the evidence offered by Michael, takes you out of that category and casts a different light on your opinions. I'm not saying that I agree with your opinion, but simply acknowledging that you've made the effort to have a reasoned discussion.

Admittedly, I can not say for sure that I would be able to spot the fake certificates every time (especially the better ones), due to my lack of ability to read Japanese. However, there are certain things that have always made me suspicious, and your input in this discussion, has helped me to confirm several of those and given me a few more. Thank you for that! I have only to JMA certificates and your input has only confirmed that they are both legitimate. Thank you for that as well! By the way, both of my certificates are from Hobbs Sensei.

Further, in response to your comment: "Fulton I think your nose is still out of joint because you tried to trip me up with your question about only having 12 kata a few posts back and got an answer you didnÂ’t expect.", it seems that YOU are pretty arrogant too ... to think that you could divine some hidden intent in my comments. For the record, I was not trying to trip you up at all. Go back and read my post, specifically:

"Now, I could draw ("jump to" would be more appropriate) a few conclusions and go off half-cocked making statements that are damaging by defaming someone's character or reputation, but that would not be fare to you, Mr. Logue, or Mr. Oyata ... would it?

I bring up the apparent inconsistency on your web site in order to make a point: That people owe each other at least a minimal amount of courtesy (i.e. "common courtesy) and that people claiming to follow the path of Budo should hold themselves to a higher standard. I think your behavior falls far short of either standard and believe that Mr. Oyata would agree. Your statements could probably also be construed as libel and in today's litigious world that is a "Pandora's Box" that I would rather not play with."

As I said, I was attempting to make a point ... that you apparently missed. As I said, I COULD HAVE jumped to conclusions and started talking crap about Mr. Oyata, based upon an apparent inconsistency on your web site, without checking the facts, but that would not be fare. Instead of bad mouthing Mr. Oyata, or you, I would have simply requested clarification. Quite frankly, I could not care less what kata Mr. Oyata (or you) learned from whom or teaches to whom because I am not affiliated with your organization and have no plans to be. People DO owe each other a minimum of courtesy, at least that is how I was raised. That minimum of courtesy would include not committing character assassination without checking your facts. And no, that two situations SEEM similar on the surface does NOT mean that they are necessarily the same. Also, although you are correct that such law suits are tough to win, please also consider the number of times that law suits are settled (by doctors or corporations) even though they know they're right because they know that it is not worth fighting it out. You can win in court and still loose (in the over all scheme of things) in the process.

Well, this has taken too much of my time so I will close by wishing you the best.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by Dave Fulton

I was not, as you said, resorting to "character assassination" to support my views due to a lack of ability to continue a logical discussion.

You were doing it then and are doing it now with this long rant of yours that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You had little ground to stand on then to support your point of view just as you have little ground now.

Originally posted by Dave Fulton
You were already doing enough of that and I simply was not going to join you. You seemed pretty darned hostile (to my perception) towards Hobbs Sensei, Michael and myself (without provocation I might add), and I didn't want to let your hostility suck me into looked to be nothing more than a pi$$ing match, so I was just going to walk away. I usually find that walking away works.

With out provication?Â…..hmmmÂ…Â…let me see.
I wouldnÂ’t dream of telling you the contents of your house and would look like an idiot doing so unless I had actually been there. Kind of like you 2 telling me about those certificates without actually know what they say or the difference between a fake and a real one. Like I said they could have been menus from a sushi bar for all you know.
Then you start with a “character assassination” of me by saying I am “angry” and “Unfortunately, there will always be people like Mr. Rousselot out there and they are a complete waste of time in my opinion.” and how you “pity them”. That’s not character assassination? This was your attempt to try and discredit me be trying to make me out to be “the bad guy”. You have yet to produce any post in this thread that is supportive of your onion on the subject at hand. However, you have done an excellent job of trying to derail this thread and make it more about my character than anything else.


Originally posted by Dave Fulton
Which brings me to my second point. You keep hammering Michael over the head with comments that I made, which hardly seems like reasonable behavior. If you want to hammer someone over the head with my comments, then please direct your efforts towards the appropriate target ... me.

They were directed at you, I just used them as an example of someone who is clueless to the topic at hand. Can you actually support any of you points with any logic?Â…Â….you havenÂ’t yet.


Originally posted by Dave Fulton
Admittedly, I can not say for sure that I would be able to spot the fake certificates every time (especially the better ones), due to my lack of ability to read Japanese. However, there are certain things that have always made me suspicious, and your input in this discussion, has helped me to confirm several of those and given me a few more. Thank you for that! I have only to JMA certificates and your input has only confirmed that they are both legitimate. Thank you for that as well! By the way, both of my certificates are from Hobbs Sensei.

How can they be Japanese and be from Hobbs at the same time?
Would you care to email them to me in jpeg form?

Originally posted by Dave Fulton
Â…Â… That people owe each other at least a minimal amount of courtesy (i.e. "common courtesy) and that people claiming to follow the path of Budo should hold themselves to a higher standard.

Yes, and that is precisely why you will never find him or anyone in his organization claiming four 10th dans, three 9th dans, and a whole slew of menkyo kaidensÂ…Â…all of which take a lifetime of study to achieve one by one.
 

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