Knowing if it's a good Kung Fu School

[AlwaysTraining]

How do I know if the kung fu school I'm planning on attending has good instructors teaching there? If I were attending a karate dojo, I would know what to look for. However, since I'm not nearly as well versed in kung fu as I am in karate, that is not the case. That coupled with the fact that I hold kung fu to be more intricate and complex than karate, I don't really know what to look for at all. I'm concerned that I could end up in a school wasting both time and money all the while thinking I'm getting authentic kung fu instruction. How do I know? Help would be much appreciated.

 

[Xue Sheng]

What style of Kung Fu are we talking about?

 

[AceHBK]

How do I know if the kung fu school I'm planning on attending has good instructors teaching there? If I were attending a karate dojo, I would know what to look for. However, since I'm not nearly as well versed in kung fu as I am in karate, that is not the case. That coupled with the fact that I hold kung fu to be more intricate and complex than karate, I don't really know what to look for at all. I'm concerned that I could end up in a school wasting both time and money all the while thinking I'm getting authentic kung fu instruction. How do I know? Help would be much appreciated.

This question is right up there with;
Where is Jimmy Hoffa & What is the meaning of life

I have no earthly clue (other than the spirit of a old dead kung fu master to lead u to the right one) but some of these knowledgable people on this board do.

The right place you have come, for information. *giggles like Yoda*

 

[Flying Crane]

This is a difficult question to answer, but I'll give it my best.

Due to the extremely large variety of Chinese martial arts, much of what I am going to say will not apply across the board.

Many traditionally run schools can have a very laxidasical atmosphere. I have heard similar descriptions about schools run by fairly famous, old-school teachers here in San Francisco. The focus is on forms training, but also with developing application from the forms. When you watch one of these traditional schools, you see that everyone is working on their own thing, or working in small groups. The sifu wanders around and gives some corrections here and there, and offers some new material to students he feels are ready for it. In this environment, there is seldom a cohesive "full class workout" with the entire group training together. Basically, you need to be very motivated for your own training, because nobody is going to motivate on your behalf. If you want to learn and train hard, you will learn a lot. If you lack motivation and stand around and don't train, you will get little attention from the sifu. If he sees you are dedicated and working hard he will give you a lot, but it may take a while for him to be satisfied that you are really serious.

My sifu says that when he learned Tibetan White Crane from his uncle, his uncle would show him a couple moves from the form and then go read the paper for an hour. Then he would come back, check on his progress, make corrections, maybe show him a little more, and then go read the paper again.

For many Westerners, this can be a frustrating way to learn. There is less structure than we are used to in a learning environment. Some schools, especially with younger teachers, are running classes in a more cohesive way. I think they are catching on that our short attention span society is having a hard time learning in the old way and they are trying to modernize the approach a bit. For many Westerners, this is an easier way to learn and is more successful on a business level.

In my opinion, I think the modern way CAN lead to a dependence on an instructor who always tells you and shows you what to do. The older way, for those who can thrive in this environment, leads to more independent martial artists who have learned and internalized the art, made it their own and "take" the art with them. It is not simply something to be practiced in the school and then left behind when you go home. I have seen people who have trained for years in a modern-minded school, who are at a loss to try and practice by themselves. They just don't know how to approach it, or how to make their own workout effective. Sometimes these same people teach class when the head instructor is away, and the class is usually poorly run.

As far as training methods, this can vary a lot from style to style. You will definitely see Forms practice and some kind of technique application, but may also see striking sandbags, makiwara, heavy bags, palm training, wooden dummy, weapons training and various other methods.

A school may not even be in a formal setting. It might be in a park, or at the sifu's house, or in a YMCA or something.

So how do you know if what you are seeing is a "Good" School?

First of all, be honest with yourself. Decide what kind of learning environment you will thrive in. Would you do better in a Traditional or Modern training environment? This will help you eliminate schools from the outset, that teach the way you don't like.

From there, watch the students. If they are focused in their training and seem to be working hard and developing good technique and application, then you are probably looking at a good school. If everyone is standing around and not working very hard but are talking and joking a lot instead, probably a poor school.

talk to the students. See how they feel about the school. Why do they like the school?

I know this is fairly nebulous, but it is a very difficult question to answer. A poor school for one might be a gold mine for another. Get in, check it out, think about what you see, try it out, if it isn't right for you then go somewhere else.

 

[7starmantis]

Well put, this "old school" way of training is hard to find nowdays and that could be a good thing for many. You have to decide what you want out of your training and then talk to the instructor and students. There really is no one sure way to tell either way. Asking questions to students may give you your best insight.

7sm

 

[Xue Sheng]

My sifu says that when he learned Tibetan White Crane from his uncle, his uncle would show him a couple moves from the form and then go read the paper for an hour. Then he would come back, check on his progress, make corrections, maybe show him a little more, and then go read the paper again.

For many Westerners, this can be a frustrating way to learn.

Agreed, My Tai Chi teacher said when he learned Tai Chi you pretty much stood in Ma Bu (horse stance) for a year before you learned much of anything.

Also I was recently very lucky to find a Sanda teacher, by accident, who learned in China the old fashion way and I can tell you, being a Westerner, it is very frustrating. Learn a couple of things practice a couple of months and then learn a couple of more things, that is if you got the first couple correct.

I have seen Kung Fu Schools where the teacher claimed to be master of a multitude of kung fu and Tai Chi styles. I have also seen kung fu schools that say they teach Kung Fu (generic). Both of these types of schools I would watch out for.

However it all depends on what you are looking for, the school where the Sifu is master of all has a lot of students, his form is very good, but he has no substance. And some people like to learn forms only. There is a very good Wing Chun school near me with considerably fewer students, because it is to hard to many.

In general, flying crane has given you good advice.

 

[AceHBK]

There is a very good Wing Chun school near me with considerably fewer students, because it is to hard to many.

Y would they think that it is easy?
That is crazy by itself alone.

 

[AlwaysTraining]

I appreciate all the great advice. Is there anyway to determine that the way an instructor is teaching a particular style is the way it was intended?

 

[AceHBK]

I appreciate all the great advice. Is there anyway to determine that the way an instructor is teaching a particular style is the way it was intended?

u have some really good questions

 

[Xue Sheng]

Y would they think that it is easy?
That is crazy by itself alone.

I have no idea, apparently, some people feel, that if you study Kung Fu you are not suppose to do sit ups, push ups and get hit.

I appreciate all the great advice. Is there anyway to determine that the way an instructor is teaching a particular style is the way it was intended?

Research; books, www and exactly what you are doing, ask questions.

 

[Jade Tigress]

Many traditionally run schools can have a very laxidasical atmosphere. I have heard similar descriptions about schools run by fairly famous, old-school teachers here in San Francisco. The focus is on forms training, but also with developing application from the forms. When you watch one of these traditional schools, you see that everyone is working on their own thing, or working in small groups. The sifu wanders around and gives some corrections here and there, and offers some new material to students he feels are ready for it. In this environment, there is seldom a cohesive "full class workout" with the entire group training together. Basically, you need to be very motivated for your own training, because nobody is going to motivate on your behalf. If you want to learn and train hard, you will learn a lot. If you lack motivation and stand around and don't train, you will get little attention from the sifu. If he sees you are dedicated and working hard he will give you a lot, but it may take a while for him to be satisfied that you are really serious.

Flying Crane - I'm glad you posted this. I entered a Kung Fu school in my small rural town because it was the only thing less than an hour away. I didn't know what to look for and am EXTREMELY lucky in my school. The class you described above are exactly what our classes are like. I am so fortunate to have found a legitimate kung fu school and I absolutely love my training. I did not realize that this type of class would be typical of a *good* kung fu school because I have no comparison...this is my first school.

Unfortunately we are moving in a couple months to the Chicago Northwest suburbs, I am very sad at having to leave my school, and deeply concerned by the prospect of having to find a new one. Unlike here, there will be tons of schools to look at and sift through. My sifu has offered to help as best he can with the information I can provide him, but the prospect of school hunting is daunting....

 

[Flying Crane]

Flying Crane - I'm glad you posted this. I entered a Kung Fu school in my small rural town because it was the only thing less than an hour away. I didn't know what to look for and am EXTREMELY lucky in my school. The class you described above are exactly what our classes are like. I am so fortunate to have found a legitimate kung fu school and I absolutely love my training. I did not realize that this type of class would be typical of a *good* kung fu school because I have no comparison...this is my first school.

Unfortunately we are moving in a couple months to the Chicago Northwest suburbs, I am very sad at having to leave my school, and deeply concerned by the prospect of having to find a new one. Unlike here, there will be tons of schools to look at and sift through. My sifu has offered to help as best he can with the information I can provide him, but the prospect of school hunting is daunting....

Glad you found this useful.

We had a couple people training tai chi with us for a while, who had trained Choy Li Fut with another sifu for a number of years. This other sifu was also old-school, and had been around for quite a few years. My sifu is fairly old-school also, but I was still not understanding that this is often the way it is done. I asked these students what the structure of their other school was like. He responded with "Ha! Structure? There is no structure!" He then described the same scenario that I laid out above, and that I have seen and heard about in other schools since.

Moving to Chicago could be a great opportunity. There are a lot of martial arts schools there, some probably great, some probably terrible, and many in between. Check them out and look at this as an opportunity to choose from a huge menu.

Remember: not all schools that are Old School and traditional are necessarily good, and not all Modern schools are bad. It can go both ways. I think it is important to know what environment you will best thrive in.

 

[Sarah]

As a BRAND new Wushu student (second class tonight) I have found this thread very informative. I, like Pam, don’t have many options in my town and am hoping that the instructor I have stumbled across turns out to be a good one. The tips have helped, thanks.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

How do I know if the kung fu school I'm planning on attending has good instructors teaching there? If I were attending a karate dojo, I would know what to look for. However, since I'm not nearly as well versed in kung fu as I am in karate, that is not the case. That coupled with the fact that I hold kung fu to be more intricate and complex than karate, I don't really know what to look for at all. I'm concerned that I could end up in a school wasting both time and money all the while thinking I'm getting authentic kung fu instruction. How do I know? Help would be much appreciated.

You can watch the instructors and see how they move. If they move smoothly and have clean looking technique you can assume they are good at what they do.

You can then talk to them about the differences thier and your art. They may not be well versed in Karate. But they should be able to give you some basic information to show that they understand why they move the way they do.

This will give you an indication as to whether or not they know and understand thier art.

Then you can look at the senior students and see if they move like the teacher, and all move mostly the same (allowing for slight differential in body types, etc). If the students also have good movements, then you can safely assume the teacher has been able to communicate what he does to his students.

You can also watch a class and see if the instructor is just showing techniques or is he watching the students and making corrections.

 

[funnytiger]

How do I know if the kung fu school I'm planning on attending has good instructors teaching there? If I were attending a karate dojo, I would know what to look for. However, since I'm not nearly as well versed in kung fu as I am in karate, that is not the case. That coupled with the fact that I hold kung fu to be more intricate and complex than karate, I don't really know what to look for at all. I'm concerned that I could end up in a school wasting both time and money all the while thinking I'm getting authentic kung fu instruction. How do I know? Help would be much appreciated.

I've been taking a traditional chinese martial art for 3 years now. I'm not an expert, by far, but I am forutnate that my Sifu shares a lot of information about the tradition of both kung fu and our particular style.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there is a big difference between the terms "old school" and traditional schools. "Old school" is a term used for those schools where students were subjected to a lot of "interesting" training techniques that would probably not be as well received today. (ie standing in horse stance for an hour)

Traditional refers to the practices and methods of that school. Traditional CMA schools have a lot of superstitions and rituals that are not found in commercial schools. After being a member of my school for about 6 months I was "introduced" to the spirits of our ancestors. A ritual that my Sifu went through with his Sifu, and so on...

A lot of the suggestions given here are good. Definitely watch the instructors and the students. Some Sifu's may want to dazzle you with their kung fu skills, which is great. See if he is all he says he is. But a teacher who can not teach isn't who he claims to be. If the students look sloppy and confused, its probably not a good school to go to.

Look for a school where the Sifu is interested in you learning the style, not about contracts and payments and blah, blah, blah.

And I will probably get some flak for this statement, but if the school claims to be traditional AND they have a belt (or sash) system their full of it. Traditional kung fu does NOT have a belt system. Its a ploy most likely to get more money out of its students. Having a belt doesn't prove anything. It all boils down to what you actually KNOW, not what color the belt is around your waist.

I have no idea, apparently, some people feel, that if you study Kung Fu you are not suppose to do sit ups, push ups and get hit.

I've never heard of this train of thought. Has anyone else? There are so many BS assumptions about CMA its nauseating...

With all respect.

 

[Flying Crane]

And I will probably get some flak for this statement, but if the school claims to be traditional AND they have a belt (or sash) system their full of it. Traditional kung fu does NOT have a belt system. Its a ploy most likely to get more money out of its students. Having a belt doesn't prove anything. It all boils down to what you actually KNOW, not what color the belt is around your waist.

I'm not going to give you flak for this because what you say is essentially true. However, some schools have adopted the modern practice of belts but this does not mean they are not good schools. It depends on how much focus is placed on rank, and money for promotions, etc. that can make it a bad thing.

My sifu has adopted a ranking system, but I was pretty much unaware of its existence until I had been training with him for about 2 years or so. I didn't take my first (and only) test until I had been with him for about 7 years, and he ranked me about 3 levels up, which is still about 3 levels from Black Belt. There were no testing fees, and he has never remembered to give my my ranking certificate. Clearly in our school it is downplayed and not given a lot of importance.

Nobody in our school wears a formal uniform, or a belt, unless the kids are getting ready for a Lion Dance performance where the belt is a necessary tool for the performers.

 

[funnytiger]

I'm not going to give you flak for this because what you say is essentially true. However, some schools have adopted the modern practice of belts but this does not mean they are not good schools. It depends on how much focus is placed on rank, and money for promotions, etc. that can make it a bad thing.

My sifu has adopted a ranking system, but I was pretty much unaware of its existence until I had been training with him for about 2 years or so. I didn't take my first (and only) test until I had been with him for about 7 years, and he ranked me about 3 levels up, which is still about 3 levels from Black Belt. There were no testing fees, and he has never remembered to give my my ranking certificate. Clearly in our school it is downplayed and not given a lot of importance.

Nobody in our school wears a formal uniform, or a belt, unless the kids are getting ready for a Lion Dance performance where the belt is a necessary tool for the performers.

FC, you are absolutely right. Sorry, I got a little over-zealous for a moment there. Having a belt system does not make a school bad by any means. But I think it does call into question how "traditional" that school is.

We have red sashes that go with our formal uniforms we wear for competitions and lion dances, but they really are just a fashion accessory. We look faaaaabulous.

 

[Sarah]

When I asked my new instructor if they grade/have a belt system, he said the only belts they wear are the ones that hold up there pants

 

[clfsean]

There are plenty of traditional schools that have gone to this mindset courtesy of the American need for visual progress reports & un-necessary bragging rights.

My school we wear red or yellow sashes depending on the uniform & who's in the lions. Otherwise we know where we all stand. Some schools do, some don't. You can't eschew all for taking advantage of what a paying public is asking for.

 

[funnytiger]

There are plenty of traditional schools that have gone to this mindset courtesy of the American need for visual progress reports & un-necessary bragging rights.

My school we wear red or yellow sashes depending on the uniform & who's in the lions. Otherwise we know where we all stand. Some schools do, some don't. You can't eschew all for taking advantage of what a paying public is asking for.

I guess my views on traditional are that a real tradition school wouldn't take advantage of a paying public. Its not about the money, its about the art. I understand that in the end it is a place of business in that the school has bills to pay and can not (in most cases) afford to not charge their students for classes. My concern is should it be a business first and a school second? Or the other way around?

So I guess the question is, is it still traditional kung fu if it lacks certain elements that are considered traditional?

If a chocolate chip cookie doesn't have any chocolate chips, is it still a chocolate chip cookie? Wow... that was confusing... and now I want cookies...

When I asked my new instructor if they grade/have a belt system, he said the only belts they wear are the ones that hold up there pants

Haha! Still my favorite answer to that question!

With all respect.

::salute::