"Knowing" a Form

[mograph]

After reading the thread on instructional videos, some questions come to mind. Let's say that a respected teacher makes a good DVD of a legitimate form, and somebody who buys the DVD learns to copy the form so the choreography matches that of the DVD, where a choreographer (not a martial artist!) can see no difference.

Can the student say he "knows that form"?

If not (the answer I'm anticipating!), what would we expect of someone who says he "knows a form"?
What should that student be able to do?
Can someone know a form without knowing applications?
Where does knowing the choreography of a form fit into the study of an art? Should it be learned first, or simultaneously with principles and applications, or after principles are fully grasped?

What does it take to say you "know a form"?

(I'm into yiquan, so I see properly-done forms as expressions of principles already learned.)

 

[Xue Sheng]

To know a form it is my opinion one needs proper instruction, correction and one needs to know internal, external and applications.

But then "Knowing" is subjective and it all depends on what one means by knowing.

You can know the form but only know the posture which is then more like knowing a dance.

You can know applications of a form, but those may or may not be the correct applications based on internal if you are talking ICMA. So what do you really know here

You can know the internal and external and not know the application which is, to me, the health dance.

Any of those can be defined as knowing a form. But to know the proper form it requires corrections, training, internal and external IMO

 

[dancingalone]

I had understood that in many Chinese forms, there's a plethora of breathing changes and muscular tensioning that WOULDN'T be discernable at all via video. Perhaps the iron thread set in Hung Gar would be a good example of this. Under that scenario, someone learning from a DVD wouldn't "know" it at all.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I had understood that in many Chinese forms, there's a plethora of breathing changes and muscular tensioning that WOULDN'T be discernable at all via video. Perhaps the iron thread set in Hung Gar would be a good example of this. Under that scenario, someone learning from a DVD wouldn't "know" it at all.

There are also a lot of small circles that are REALLY hard to pickup via video

 

[JWLuiza]

I once made the analogy of forms being like a christmas gift. There's the pretty wrapping paper on the outside. Some people (like little kids) just play with the box and forget all the stuff that's inside.

Are you just learning the color of the wrapping paper? The shape of the box, or everything inside of it?

 

[seasoned]

Knowing is not feeling the forms, but feeling is the unteachable part that only proper guidance and repetition will accomplish.

 

[UNYMA]

It seems we all agree. I call the first phase knowing the pattern. If I can remember where to put my limbs and roughly when to put them there I have a grasp of the pattern. Obviously at that point I don't "know" the form. In fact I've come to the conclusion that really "knowing" a form is a very long process. My interpretation of a form will change as I advance in my abilities. Each time I get a little better in my art I will have to go back to the form and see what new things I can wring out of it. Hmmm, sounds like time and effort I wonder what that could mean......

 

[kidswarrior]

My interpretation of a form will change as I advance in my abilities. Each time I get a little better in my art I will have to go back to the form and see what new things I can wring out of it. Hmmm, sounds like time and effort I wonder what that could mean......

Me too. Then I try to teach it, and find I don't really know it at all.

 

[Flying Crane]

my sigung says it in a way that makes a lot of sense to me. The form is worthless. It's just a bunch of movement. It's just a dance choreography. Knowing it doesn't matter.

What matters is, every single movement within the form. Every movement needs to be done with proper stance, footwork, power generation, application, all the nuances and elements that need to be there. If you can do every movement in the form correctly, then you know the form. Otherwise, it's worthless.

 

[Flying Crane]

I once made the analogy of forms being like a christmas gift. There's the pretty wrapping paper on the outside. Some people (like little kids) just play with the box and forget all the stuff that's inside.

Are you just learning the color of the wrapping paper? The shape of the box, or everything inside of it?

That's funny. I buy a new toy for my cats, and they would rather play with the packaging.

 

[grydth]

Too many practitioners in too many arts view "knowing a form" as merely being able to stumble through the general movements with only a few hesitations..... 'cause they've done it a whole 10 times already.

 

[K-man]

It seems we all agree. I call the first phase knowing the pattern. If I can remember where to put my limbs and roughly when to put them there I have a grasp of the pattern. Obviously at that point I don't "know" the form. In fact I've come to the conclusion that really "knowing" a form is a very long process. My interpretation of a form will change as I advance in my abilities. Each time I get a little better in my art I will have to go back to the form and see what new things I can wring out of it. Hmmm, sounds like time and effort I wonder what that could mean......

It's like going around in a circle. We know the pattern and think we 'know' the kata or form. Later we see some applications, return to the form and work our way through it. Now we think we really 'know' the form. We have completed another circle. Then someone says that the form can be used in grappling so we return to the form and complete another circle. Now we really, really 'know' the form.
Each time someone gives us an insight we return to the form and take it to a new level. Looking from above it looks as if we are going round in circles. Only when we view our progress from the side can we see that we are actually spiralling upward and that each circle completed takes us to a new level of understanding. How high we go depends on how hard we look. Do we ever know the form? In its entirety, probably not. Can we use it in a martial context? Yes, but not until we have completed a number of circles.
So yes, anyone can learn the choreography of a form from a DVD. Some DVDs even give a basic explanation of the applications. The true understanding of the form is the journey of each individual. What a form means to one person can be totally different to the way it is viewed by another. We are all different so we need to personalise the form to suit our needs. We then not only 'know' the form, we 'own' the form.
Having said this, IMO it is absolutely critical to teach kata in its original form. That gives the student the opportunity to create their own journey and then they too can pass it on to the next generation.

 

[JWLuiza]

I guess we never know, we just keep practicing

 

[ggg214]

my sigung says it in a way that makes a lot of sense to me. The form is worthless. It's just a bunch of movement. It's just a dance choreography. Knowing it doesn't matter.

What matters is, every single movement within the form. Every movement needs to be done with proper stance, footwork, power generation, application, all the nuances and elements that need to be there. If you can do every movement in the form correctly, then you know the form. Otherwise, it's worthless.

i have learned the same instruction!

 

[l_uk3y]

Their is being able to perform a form. And actually KNOWING a form.

To truly know and understand the form, you must be able to break down all the individual movements and techniques and explain what they are and their function and well as demonstrate multiple applications of each move/section.

Then at a higher level of knowing the form you may be able to discover your own purposes and applications for techniques inside of that form that aren't considered the "standard use".

Yes you can learn to perform a form off a video you may miss intricate movements but the general form is definitely learn able. However to truly learn it you need to break it up into its individual components and explore much deeper. This is why learning under a good teacher/master is best.