"Know your enemy..."

Drac

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it's a lack of situational awareness that put you in the situation in the first place......I know, i've been in bad situations, and they were ALL because I walked headlong in to them with my head up my ***!

Been there, done that...


theletch1 said:
Trusting your gut is a great thing. It's saved my hide a time for two.

Ditto..



theletch1 said:
Here's a question for ya'll. Do you think that the gut instinct about others that we're talking about (and which plays nicely with the OP) is something that you are simply born with if you'll listen to it or is something that has developed over years of training?


I believe its a combination of both..
 

Ahriman

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As opponents with mental disorders were mentioned, I second sgtmac_46's view about them - they are the most dangerous, especially ones with a serious case of psychopathy. They are often very intelligent, very charming, and appear very trustworthy but they feel no regret and/or don't understand or accept the legal or moral laws of normal people. And the fact that most of them prefer hunting over open confrontation makes them even more dangerous as you can't predict or understand their motives or thought processes. Most of them are emotionally shallow and stabile which is the reason of the calmness they usually have - this makes them easier to spot as sgtmac_46 mentioned but makes them a more dangerous opponent at the same time as they won't be anxious and will rarely if ever loose their temper. (on a side note, there are stupid psychopats and they are those who get caught soon)
...
theletch1: even a "simple" adrenaline rush can be extremely effective, but it was clearly a case of berserkergang or running amok or choose-random-cultural-equivalent. If not self-induced, it usually starts without notice and may be launched by anger or by fear or any other extreme feeling or situation, resulting in a loss of conscious processes (this, beside a few other things, means that he forgets his goals completely which is IMO the defining difference between an adrenaline rush and a massive adrenaline overdose) and a will to kill anything and everything in sight. We could restrain our friend as we could surprise him and because he never cared to work out or to have any serious martial training - otherwise he would've likely killed the BGs AND us.
 

jks9199

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Very true but Bundy was an extreme case. For the sake of this particular thread, though, how do you pick out the guy that is normally a good person but has just been pushed too far beyond his limits by what the OP has described as death by a thousand cuts on vacation at D'world?
Someone who's been pushed to the edge will show it in many ways. Some are unique to the person; one person may get quieter and more still as more of their personal resources get tied up in restraining themselves, while another may become louder and more energetic as that same energy expresses itself. Others are pretty common; eyes opening very wide (you may see whites on 3 or even all 4 sides of the pupil), tension throughout the body, flushed skin or pale/blotchy skin, and so on. You may see a change in expression -- either dead flat, or kind of a "scared/cornered rabid animal" look.

The biggest indicator is what Sgt Mac alluded to... Their entire demeanor and person just won't fit with the situation. Go to a mall, pick a convenient spot (I like second floor overlooks where I can see the most people), and do some people watching. It won't take long, and you'll be able to pick out the guy who's being dragged along by his wife, the person who's going to go off on the next jerk who asks him to "take just a minute for a survey", and so on. You'll pick out the different groups, and if you watch carefully, you'll see which groups get along with each other -- and which don't. If you do an exercise like that regularly, it'll become habit and spread into other activities. I even often know which cars and drivers are going to cut me off in a moment, and so on... just because I've subconsciously noted the driver and all the behaviors of the car.
 

morph4me

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Trusting your gut is a great thing. It's saved my hide a time for two. Here's a question for ya'll. Do you think that the gut instinct about others that we're talking about (and which plays nicely with the OP) is something that you are simply born with if you'll listen to it or is something that has developed over years of training?


I think that we're all born with that instinct, but it becomes subservient to intellect as we grow up, and we have to be trained by experience to learn to trust it again. Alot of people have bad feelings about a situation or a person, and, instead of trusting those feelings, they rationalize and ignore them. With experience we learn that every time we ignore our gut, something bad happens, but we aren''t really suprised, because at some level we expected it, so we start paying attention to our gut.
 

sgtmac_46

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Trusting your gut is a great thing. It's saved my hide a time for two. Here's a question for ya'll. Do you think that the gut instinct about others that we're talking about (and which plays nicely with the OP) is something that you are simply born with if you'll listen to it or is something that has developed over years of training?
I think it's both....we all have the capacity to varying degrees, but you hone it by watching people, by being an observer of human behavior. Spend enough time hanging around people in violent situations and eventually you develop a very acute sense of the signs.
 

sgtmac_46

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I might mention for all those interested in how to spot a fight coming in bar......watch the women.....the woman who's spent the night courting the attention of several men is going to start a fight between at least 2 of them. 80% of bar fights are started because of a woman, directly or indirectly. A good bouncer can usually spot the fight coming 20 minutes or more before the first punch is thrown.

Simple rule......when the woman above has been giving several guys attention, watch the one she was just talking to....if he spends a lot of his time staring at her, especially when she's talking to another guy, there's likely going to be a fight.
 

Adept

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Spend enough time hanging around people in violent situations and eventually you develop a very acute sense of the signs.

Very true. Something I picked up on early in my security career was the way the more experienced bouncers could pick a fight coming well before it happened. I sat back, and watched and learned, and having that skill has saved my skin (and that of others) many a time.

It's just something I take for granted now.
 

sgtmac_46

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Very true. Something I picked up on early in my security career was the way the more experienced bouncers could pick a fight coming well before it happened. I sat back, and watched and learned, and having that skill has saved my skin (and that of others) many a time.

It's just something I take for granted now.
Exactly! The best bouncers don't have very many fights on their watch because they see one coming 20 minutes or more before the first punch is thrown.....and move in to remove the offending party(s) long before it ever gets to physical violence.
 

Yew

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Very true. Something I picked up on early in my security career was the way the more experienced bouncers could pick a fight coming well before it happened. I sat back, and watched and learned, and having that skill has saved my skin (and that of others) many a time.

It's just something I take for granted now.

In other words,the bouncers hit first right?How do they do that without getting into trouble with the law for hitting first?Do the police give them the benefit of the doubt because they are bouncers?

I think the ordinary citizen on the street would be in trouble with police and law if he didn't have a position("rank/authority") as a bouncer or body guard.Obviously since the court isn't going to buy the "I hit first cause I could sense he was going to hit me" reasoning from a normal citizen.Just curious cause I want to know how to protect myself. :)
 

Adept

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In other words,the bouncers hit first right?How do they do that without getting into trouble with the law for hitting first?Do the police give them the benefit of the doubt because they are bouncers?

No no, nothing like that.

A huge part of being a succesful bouncer is being able to think on your feet, use your mouth, and build rapport with your patrons. When you see a fight coming early, you don't just jump in and start swinging! You talk to the aggrieved parties, find out what the story is, and take steps to resolve it. Usually you'll get a story about how some guy shoved another guy, or has been staring at his girlfriend, or spilled a drink, or whatever.

If you've done your job right, you can tell them 'Mate, don't worry about it. I'll have a word to them and we'll take care of it' and the problem is solved. If the patrons think you are a straight-up kind of guy, and have a little respect for you, then they will usually feel comfortable leaving something in your hands. Sometimes you can move patrons around inside the venue. Sometimes you can tell them how saturday nights in this venue are pretty slow, but a mate of yours works the door at another club three blocks away that is pumping.

Sometimes you just need to tell them that it's time to leave.

You only really need to hit them when things go really wrong.

It's not a matter of seeing a fight coming in the seconds before punches get thrown. It's about identifying the posturing and behaviour patterns that indicate a fight is probably going to happen in twenty minutes.
 

tshadowchaser

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Do you think that the gut instinct about others that we're talking about (and which plays nicely with the OP) is something that you are simply born with if you'll listen to it or is something that has developed over years of training?

both
I think you are born with it but many people loose the ability to listen to it.
It can be developed to a high lever by training but one still has to listen to it when it presents itslef
 

jks9199

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In other words,the bouncers hit first right?How do they do that without getting into trouble with the law for hitting first?Do the police give them the benefit of the doubt because they are bouncers?

I think the ordinary citizen on the street would be in trouble with police and law if he didn't have a position("rank/authority") as a bouncer or body guard.Obviously since the court isn't going to buy the "I hit first cause I could sense he was going to hit me" reasoning from a normal citizen.Just curious cause I want to know how to protect myself. :)
How about the bouncers ACT first, hopefully to avoid having to hit at all. Whether you're a bouncer at a bar, or a cop monitoring a county fair or similar event... when you see the signs of a fight brewing, you have two basic choices. You can wait till it happens, and get some thumps in -- and possibly get thumped a time or two yourself -- or you can intervene before the fight happens. That might mean kicking someone out, or distracting them, or simply letting everyone there know that you see them... I've generally avoided fighting people because I don't give them the opportunity to fight me.

It's something you can do in your daily life, too. You look around, and realize you're in a bad situation, you can attack the person you think might be about to hit you before they get a chance. Probably not a good idea, though... But, you also can move, acknowledge them, or take other actions that will reduce the odds that they'll attack you. Without hitting 'em first...
 

BLACK LION

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I have a plan to kill everyone I meet should it become necessary.
haha I like the way you think .... and you actually set an example with your comment....
this is a fighters mentality.... this is a man who can completely function on a social basis but has also habituated violence.... he most likely purposely watches people of all walks of life to sum up his environment...

knowing ones enemy is merely perceiving ones surroundings.....children are great at it and they win most of thier battles...this is because they use thier perception to know thier parents weaknesses and they exploit them with simple tools.... we forget that we have this ability to adapt naturally but the more we consume the more we forget.... there is no special training all you need is the will to turn your life around and take control of your surroundings...as we used to... from the time you open your eyes until the time you goto sleep it is your responsibilty to have complete perception of ones surroundings...know what you are capable of and believe it.... forge your reality with your mind and your will.... this is knowing yourself and this is survival....


i personally make it a point everyday no matter where I am... you must habituate it... does not matter if it is wal-mart, mcdonalds or church on sunday... it is your responsiblity to have a complete perception

oh... you can tell by looking them in the eye and so can they.... some only glance...some look up and away...most look down and away.... few will lock eyes... body language is secondary... but even when in doubt act as if.... dont worry about being polite

i make eye contact wherever i go...I do it abruptly but respectively...




****
 

BLACK LION

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....to know the predator one must become the predator....

habituate violence....although you may not be a mind reader... you will know when there is another hunter in the bushes....
 

sgtmac_46

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Undetected movement for total surprise on the enemy....speed, surprise and violence of action. That is the mindset of the predator.

Predators are not fighters, they are hunters, stalkers....they exploit weaknesses and attack at a time and place of their choosing.

One must understand the difference between a fighter and a predator. If we look at nature and study those animals adapted to fighting versus those adapted as predators, we can see traits and themes that transfer to us.

We see the fighters in nature have evolved those fighting traits in order to defend.....bulls evolved to defend the herd from attack. When threatened the fighter attacks the threat......but a fighter is reactive.

Contrast that with a leopard, which may be the ultimate mammal ambush predator....the leopard blends in to it's surroundings, it observes detail, it stalks, it moves silently, it attacks weakness at a time and place of it's choosing. It embodies the principles of undetected movement for total surprise on the enemy.

Now when we say you should learn to think like a predator it doesn't mean you should become a predator.....being a predator assumes your goal is predation. You actually want to defend and protect yourself.

But UNDERSTANDING the predator gives you valuable insight with how a predator is going to be looking at you and how you can make yourself a VERY unattractive target to that predator. Just as Lions and Leopards avoid tackling healthy male adult Cape Buffalo, knowing what they look for goes a long way in making them consider you too hard a target if possible, and at least see them coming in time to build a defense.
 
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