Knife Techniques In The Kenpo System

Do you feel the five knife techniques taught in Kenpo are a practical defense?

  • Yes, I do feel the techniques are a practical defense against a knife attack.

  • No, I do not feel that the knife techniques are a practical defense for a knife attack on today's st


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True2Kenpo

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Fellow Kenpoists,

I have been thinking a lot about the five knife techniques taught in the Kenpo System; Raining Lance, Thrusting Lance, Entwined Lance, Glancing Lance, and Piercing Lance. I feel that the techniques offer a very valuable base to build from, however I question if they would be a practical defense for a knife attack on today's streets.

How do you feel?

Thank you for your thoughts and comments in advance. Good journey!

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh
 
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True2Kenpo

True2Kenpo

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Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Exactly what would you do for "Today's Streets"?

:confused:

Mr. C,

Good afternoon sir! I understand your question and my question is not meant to look down on the techniques that have been developed for a knife attack by Mr. Parker.

I guess I just feel that people today have a lot more knowledge as far as weilding a knife and I just wanted to see what others thought about the knife techniques that exist in the Kenpo System. I know that many organizations and instructors have built upon the knife concepts and I was hoping that the posed question would lead to some discussion on different approaches.

In anycase, I hope all is well for you sir. I apologize for not being able to attend your seminar in WV, but I will plan ahead next time.

Good journey.

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh
 

Goldendragon7

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Originally posted by True2Kenpo
I understand but my question is that I just feel that people today have a lot more knowledge as far as wielding a knife and I just wanted to see what others thought about the current knife techniques that exist in the Kenpo System if they are still efficient. Respectfully, Joshua Ryer UPK Pittsburgh

I do agree with you that the basic knife techniques are good, but you must look at the larger picture. The purpose of the entire system collectively is to prepare you for anything. Too many don't see the forest for the trees.

The few knife techniques as well as several other categories such as gun, club and multiple attacks or any others for that matter, are only hinted upon to give a basic understanding and start.

Within the "what if" phase we need to totally re-evaluate all the material and come up with movements and answers that fit (or are tailored) to each one of us. I realize that many people do not or have not had much in the line of this kind of exposure to the system or it's depth, thus much of the confusion to the obvious curriculum.

A deeper view will reveal that much of what you ask is there and does in fact need to be explored to bring out the best possible responses in us. My point is that the "Base System" is fine as it is however, it was NOT intended to be taken at face value only.

:asian:
 

ikenpo

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Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Within the "what if" phase we need to totally re-evaluate all the material and come up with movements and answers that fit (or are tailored) to each one of us. I realize that many people do not or have not had much in the line of this kind of exposure to the system or it's depth, thus much of the confusion to the obvious curriculum.
:asian:

Mr. C,

Is there a particular way that you have re-evaluated the knife & gun techniques? Do you build off the bases that currently exist or do you start from another level? Could you give us an example of your outline if so? Do you think it would be good for American Kenpo in general if this evaluation in the "what if" stage had a best practices approach where the information was shared amongst everyone? Or does have everyone doing their own thing foster more "useful" creativity? Finally, looking at the current Kenpo community, what seniors would you say have created a solid "what if" extend bases for the knife? for the gun?

my personal guess would be Mr. Pick for the knife & Dr. Chape'l for the gun, but I haven't been exposed to enough to say this without a doubt.

jb :asian:
 

Goldendragon7

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Originally posted by jbkenpo
Mr. C, Is there a particular way that you have re-evaluated the knife & gun techniques?
jb :asian:

I think that knife and gun techniques take an awful lot of special attention and critical drilling after one becomes fairly well skilled in the art. I don't think knife and gun techniques have changed all that much over time. They are "DANGEROUS" at all levels to say the least. In our ideal phase we learn the coordination and overviews of the techniques but in reality there is much more detailed work to do than I have seen undertaken by most. Personally I reserve this particular study for the advanced Black Belt student.

With respect to the 5 that have been mentioned, some considerations are.........

Divert, Seize, control and disarm is always the main theme in addition to other variables........

Raining Lance - Front Overhead knife (working knife from above from a Left Neutral Bow)

Glancing Lance - Front shuffling thrust (working knife from the outside from a Left Neutral Bow)

Thrusting Lance - Front step through thrust (working knife from the inside from a Right Neutral Bow)

Piercing Lance - Front - Right Knife Thrust While Your Arms Are Up (working from the outside from a Left Neutral Bow)

Entwined Lance - Front right step through knife thrust (working knife from the inside from a Left Neutral Bow)

As you can see.... these only encompass a "few" of the many possibilities that can occur during a actual confrontation. There is no slash defense outlined (however, Returning Storm or variation can be inserted) no rear attacks, no flank attacks, no uppercut attacks, as well as several other types of angular attacks not to mention different grips or if we are armed as well. We only deal with a "FEW" and all from the front working inside, outside or from above the centerline. This is barely a start.

We must then call upon the other weapon attacks to research if they could be substituted in any way like "Returning Strom". This will obviously reveal many answers, as will many other of the curriculums techniques if a knife is inserted rather than just the unarmed scenario we already have learned. This of course, is NOT geared for the beginning student but rather the expert Black Belt 2nd Degree or higher. I think you get my drift.

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Do you build off the bases that currently exist or do you start from another level?
jb :asian:

Both

Originally posted by jbkenpo Could you give us an example of your outline if so?
jb :asian:

I think you get the idea from the above.

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Do you think it would be good for American Kenpo in general if this evaluation in the "what if" stage had a best practices approach where the information was shared amongst everyone?
jb :asian:

Sure, I think everyone that would listen could benefit. But as I always say......... "Some will, Some won't ....... All can"!

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Or does have everyone doing their own thing foster more "useful" creativity?
jb :asian:

I think many have a creative side....... some just don't want to share outside their circles, and in some cases for good reason.

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Looking at the current Kenpo community, what seniors would you say have created a solid "what if" extend bases for the knife?
jb :asian:

Those that I am familiar with (which may not be everybody), Steve LaBounty, Huk Planas, Mike Pick, Skip Hancock, Paul Mills, Gil Hibben.

Originally posted by jbkenpo
And what seniors would you say have created a solid "what if" extend bases for the gun?
jb :asian:

Ron Chape'l, Steve LaBounty, & Ron Sanchez

Originally posted by jbkenpo
And what seniors would you say have created a solid "what if" extend bases for the whip?
jb :asian:

Indiana Jones, & Huk Planas!

:asian:
 
S

Stick Dummy

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Josh,

Great thread!!


Mr. C. - I'd love to "experiment" with these the next time you come up, if we have the time.

My VERY limited understanding is that any given styles knife Tech's must be fluid - dynamic - and based on both enviromental and situational conditions.

Mr. Murphy (of Murphy's Law) can come to visit often - Its entertaining to do something like FMA-IMA styles and have an advanced practitioner of those arts "finish" you with a Fencing style thrust......... :erg: BTDT many times

:asian:
 

jfarnsworth

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Originally posted by Stick Dummy
Mr. C. - I'd love to "experiment" with these the next time you come up, if we have the time.

I'd like to see a technique line next time. Start with Delayed Sword and keep going until people start to drop out. Or maybe hit a few other advanced techniques in the system while still doing the technique line.:asian:
 

Goldendragon7

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Originally posted by jfarnsworth
I'd like to see a technique line next time. Start with Delayed Sword, maybe hit a few other advanced techniques, keep going until people start to drop. :asian:

Man, these Ohio folks are sadistic! :eek: I'm liking you more and more Jason!

:asian:
 

jfarnsworth

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Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Man, these Ohio folks are sadistic! :eek: I'm liking you more and more Jason!

I'm always ready for some training.:D Your signature at the bottom of your posts says it all.:asian:
 

jaybacca72

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nice reply on the weapons questions,just on for you if you had to chose what knife to carry what would it be.and what knives do you have in your collection and what ones did Mr.Parker have in his besides gil's.oh that's more than oh well.
take care
jay
ps when are you close to the boarder again?:asian:
 

Goldendragon7

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Originally posted by jaybacca72
Nice reply on the weapons questions!
take care, jay

Thank You!

Originally posted by jaybacca72
If you had to chose a knife to carry what knife would it be?
take care, jay

I have a complete collection of bali song knives..... originally made by Les, but I like the Pick knife and Paul Mills knife for everyday carry. Different uses ....... different blades.

Originally posted by jaybacca72
What knives do you have in your collection?
take care, jay


Check out this prior post with my knives........
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6057&highlight=Ricardo

Originally posted by jaybacca72
What ones did Mr.Parker have in his besides gil's.
take care, jay

He had a whole gear bag full of different blades and guns....LOL all sorts of implements of destruction :)

Originally posted by jaybacca72
ps when are you close to the boarder again
take care, jay

Anytime you want me......lol :rofl:

:asian:
 
K

Kenpo Yahoo

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Here is a picture of the knife I carry with me, it's a Mills fighter.

MillsFighter2.gif


I like it because it's double edged (good for short-held trapping) and it's got a belly on it. This means that if you use the knife as you are meant to and cut with the entire length of the blade, you will penetrate deeper than with a simple straight blade. Mr. Mills is extremely insistant on having this design for his fighters, and has incorporated it into his knifes for many many years.

Here is a pic from the AKKI website, it has a few more of Mr. Mill's knife designs. They are all made with high quality material and keep an edge like nothing I've ever seen before. Mr. Mills also has also designed a brand new folding fighter. He's built in several features from his previous designs, including the double edge and belly on the blade. He has also built in a special feature that literally allows you to "quick draw" the blade flip it open and stick it into your opponent in one smooth move. I'll have to check to see if I can post a picture of it on here.


Pic of Mills knifes (Including Fighters, Bowies, Claws, etc. just a small portion of the many knife designs)
photo_sept2002_11.jpg
 

tarabos

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there is a limit to the length of the actual blade on the knife in the states but i am not sure if it varies from state to state. i'm pretty sure in PA that it can be no longer than four inches but don't quote me on that, i couldn't say 100% for sure.
 
K

Kenpo Yahoo

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Double edged knives are not legal carry blades anywhere that I'm aware of, but the only way anyone on the streets would know that I had it on me is if I had to use it. Given that circumstance, I think I would be okay with the consequences.
 

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