Knife Techniques In The Kenpo System

[mj-hi-yah]

I think this is clear in the empty hand techniques, but then you have 5 knife techniqes that are all based on lunges. Not what I would call attacks from an experienced knife fighter. This is not to say the system has not or cannot be adapted, but "by the book" the attacks are not 100% practical. That's my only point in this.

Mr Mike,
I've had the same question in my mind concerning these techniques for awhile. Last year at the Kenpo Karate Internationals in Boston I took a seminar on defending against knife attacks (I apologize for not remembering the presenter’s name, maybe someone else remembers) and after watching him present for a few minutes I asked that very question concerning practicality. He showed me why those defenses were not practical. We went through a couple of them. According to him, (and he had knife fighting combat experience) most people will not attack with a knife using a lunge. He did however show that the ideas in the Kenpo knife defenses could be utilized but not as your initial defense.

MJ :asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

Fiddlesticks.

First off, the five basic knife techniques in kenpo are not all designed against lunges. Raining Lance, in its ideal form, works against an overhand attempt to stick a knife through the top of your head. (And if you think this doesn't happen, I suggest looking up the X-ray of the guy with the ten-inch bowie through the skull.) Thrusting Lance works by inviting a lunge. Entwined Lance runs against a high stab or slash at eye-level. Glancing Lance is indeed, in ideal form, against a lunge. Piercing? Another way of inviting a lunge, after an opponent's tried something else.

Second off, the techniques do in fact work--as well as anything will work, practiced on a mat of some sort, in what we jokingly call, "real life." If instructors are simply explaining why they won't, you need to find a competent instructor. Of course, it's quite legit for instructors to explain what can go wrong, or what counters might appear for a given technique.

Third. Hey, I've got a question. Which techniques in kenpo CAN'T be used against a knife? After all, the basic logic of all the empty-hand arts is hands first, weapons second.

Fourth. Sorry, but the fantasy of taking on experienced knife-fighters with bare hands--or with a knife, for that matter--is ridiculous and extremely dangerous. As far as I know, you better HOPE the guy lunges, or get him to lunge. Because standing there like Steven Seagal trading swipes and parries...sorry, it's not fencing.

"Knife fighting combat experience," my foot. Unless, of course, his hands and arms were pretty scarred up.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Fiddlesticks.

Fiddlesticks is a good game, but will you please agree to play it nicely with me? Now, for one thing, I can agree that Raining Lance in it's ideal form is against an an overhead attack. Also Entwined Lance... and yes in their "ideal form" yes they all work.... I can even imagine that x-rays may prove your point on a knife to the head as in RL.

Maybe I should leave Kenpo out of this for a minute, and say that we were shown that a knife attacker will sometimes come in slashing with a knife as in more of a figure eight as opposed to lunging or downward thrusting. Ok so let's bring Kenpo back in and practice defending against a knife that is slashing with a Kenpo technique. Remembering that I am here to play Fiddlesticks fairly with you I would love some Kenpo technique ideas to combat this type of attack. :asian:

Third. Hey, I've got a question. Which techniques in kenpo CAN'T be used against a knife? After all, the basic logic of all the empty-hand arts is hands first, weapons second.

You now really have my attention :asian: If you are interested work the above scenario and bring back an existing defense for a slashing knife. :asian:


I am curious though why you are unable to even entertain the thought that someone might have learned something valuable and perhaps more practical in actual combat than what is taught in Kenpo....

I didn't need to see him arms, his eyes told the whole story! This man had played in the big league. Maybe I can find his name for you.

 

[psi_radar]

Maybe I should leave Kenpo out of this for a minute, and say that we were shown that a knife attacker will sometimes come in slashing with a knife as in more of a figure eight as opposed to lunging or downward thrusting.

You now really have my attention :asian: If you are interested work the above scenario and bring back an existing defense for a slashing knife. :asian:

MJ, as I said above, Returning the Storm is actually my favorite knife technique. That's because it does work against the figure-eight slash. It has to be in a little tighter because the attacking weapon is shorter than a club (unless it's a sword or machete), but it works. Give it a try.

I'll shoot you a PM as well.

 

[Stick Dummy]

Mister Conatser

& "MisterMike"

Back to my original inane question :

"Does "Leaping Crane" have any potential as a knife technique??"


I'm curious what types of knife attacks it may work against?
Slash?
Thrust?
Stab?


Thank You for your responses
:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Mister Conatser" Back to my original inane question :
"Does "Leaping Crane" have any potential as a knife technique??"
I'm curious what types of knife attacks it may work against?
Slash?
Thrust?
Stab?
:asian:

Of course!

%-}

 

[MJS]

Back to my original inane question :

"Does "Leaping Crane" have any potential as a knife technique??"

Yes. With some slight modification. Not to get off the track here, but I've had this similar discussion with DKL, and various Kenpo techs. that can be applied while grappling. I'm happy to say that I've had success with a few of them while in the mount position. Again, with a slight mod.

Mike

 

[MisterMike]

Mister Conatser

& "MisterMike"

Back to my original inane question :

"Does "Leaping Crane" have any potential as a knife technique??"


I'm curious what types of knife attacks it may work against?
Slash?
Thrust?
Stab?


Thank You for your responses
:asian:

Yes, with some mods according to the knife disarm principles I quoted above.

Divert, Seize, Control, and Disarm.

 

[Kenpo Mama]

I didn't need to see him arms, his eyes told the whole story! This man had played in the big league. Maybe I can find his name for you.

MJ - His name is Tom Sotis. I too attended a seminar with him, pretty cool dude!

And I do agree with PSI Radar that Returning the Storm is an excellent tech to run as a defense against a figure eight slashing knife.

Peace

Donna %-}

 

[mj-hi-yah]

MJ - His name is Tom Sotis. I too attended a seminar with him, pretty cool dude!

And I do agree with PSI Radar that Returning the Storm is an excellent tech to run as a defense against a figure eight slashing knife.

Peace

Donna %-}

...Thanks Donna... Here's a bio from a recent seminar he gave:

AMOK! Knifefighting Course JUNE 26-27, 2004 Los Angeles, CA
AMOK! Knifefighting Course

Train in the Combat-Proven AMOK! Knife Method
JUNE 26-27, 2004 Los Angeles, CA

Professor Tom Sotis will be in Los Angeles, CA in June 2004. Tom Sotis is widely regarded as one of the most influential knife trainers in the world today. Having taught knife seminars in 20 countries, his proven reputation and method of combat, aptly called AMOK!, has earned global respect.

Sotis hard-earned his proven reputation within the world's Special Ops communities and regularly trains military operators and government agents in some of the most dangerous countries and war zones in the world.

Today, Sotis stands as one of the finest combative instructors in the world, and through a decade of extensive interaction with military operators, AMOK! has evolved into an ultra-functional methodology based on the efficient parameters demanded of military combatives. AMOK! is a highly functional system of knife combat that has been simplified for the realities of combat, and the needs of the modern american student who does not have an unlimited amount of training/learning time. This stuff is truly combat proven!!

 

[Stick Dummy]

Thanks for the Pay Preview Channel endorsements. I thought we were talking Kenpo knife techniques here...........

:barf:

:barf:

:barf:

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Thanks for the Pay Preview Channel endorsements. I thought we were talking Kenpo knife techniques here...........

:barf:

:barf:

:barf:

:supcool: Made a guy vomit ...I never touched him I swear!!!:rofl:

 

[pete]

ok... looking at the ideas raised in this thread as someone without any real life knife combat life-and-death situational experience, take this as you will..

1. the 5 knife techniques in the kenpo system work fine on the mat against the attacks for which they were designed.
2. some knife attacks must be done in this manner, or Ed Parker wouldn't have developed them
3. other knife attacks are possible beyond those we are trained to defend.

4. #'s 1-3 could also be said for empty hand attacks, clubs, other weapons, or ground fighting (no, not going there... but bear with me).

5. other techniques in the system can be used to defend against knife attacks
6. therefore, other techniques in the system can be used to defend against different empty-handed attacks,ground fighting, etc.

-- whoa, here is where i stop and think... aren't our techniques specifically designed to achieve positional advantage based on the attack? wouldn't changing the attack (knife or not) require a change to the technique or risk the losing that positional advantage? wouldn't changing the weapon from empty hand, to blunt object, to a bladed weapon alter the zones of sanctuary.

so.. again as no expert in the area of knive fighting, i'd be a bit leary of randomly selecting other techniques to apply against a knife attack, but will admit that the 2 techniques mentioned (returning storm and leaping crane) may have potential... but how to alter them?

i see leaping crane putting you in a similar position as glancing lance, so i guess you can graft into the end of GL after you knife kick the back of his knee...but what advantage does this give you over simply doing GL from the start? at least there you have the ability to disarm him???

returning storm seems to work well if you catch the figure eight on the upswing... and seems to work well if i was the knife fighter... but couldn't one skilled with a knife be more evasive than a club in this pattern? wouldn't entwined lance also work if you were able to time it as such?

no, until we have techniques that are designed and developed specifically for a bladed weapon attack, i'll stick with the 5 in the system... there can always be gaps, i guess i've accepted that... what about a guy with 2 knives, or a samurai sword (yeah, the kenpo mama saw one wielded on a NYC subway a few years back)

pete

 

[psi_radar]

Hi Pete,

One thing you might notice about Glancing Lance as compared to Leaping Crane is that it includes deliberate checks to the weapon arm. The knife at close range is an incredibly dynamic and FAST weapon. If you do Leaping Crane on a knife wielder, there's a lot of opportunity for them to rotate and bring that weapon around and gouge you while you're finishing up, since the arm is not directly controlled. If I were to attempt the technique, I'd delete a few of moves and add a suffix:

1) Parry

2) Knuckle strike

3) RUN!!!!!

 

[psi_radar]

Pete,

I misinterpreted your post. These are the inherent dangers of surfing and working at the same time.

 

[psi_radar]

:supcool: Made a guy vomit ...I never touched him I swear!!!:rofl:

Wow, Dillman never showed me those pressure points!

 

[parkerkarate]

Glancing lance my man, second part of the technique, one legged stance stance, just like Leaping Crane

 

[Karazenpo]

I did with my 5 degree black belt teacher . Oh yeah, he pulled out a REAL knife and told me to stab him with FULL POWER AND SPEED.

it was DONE in front of basketball field. I was nervous at first. My initial response was " I have a future waiting ".

to answer your question, YES, i have seen it. I am sure many of you see that elsewhere.

there is nothing to talk about here.

CoolKempoDude, in all due respect and I mean that, if your instructor gives people real knives and tells them to come at him with full committment then he is an 'imbecile'. I'll leave it at that. As far as knife techniques, the vast majority of systems out there do not teach realistic knife techniques and the answer is simple-there aren't any. Knife defense should be taught on concept alone and not on any specific by-the-numbers techqnique which tend to build a 'false sense of security'. The Calibre Press (Charles Remsberg & Dennis Anderson-Police Street Survival Seminars) put together five years of research from police files of survivors and fatalities of knife attacks both police and civillian, trained and untrained. There conclusion was that those who survived did do by immobilizing the knife-weilding limb. That's it! Whatever you have to do to immobilize that limb can save your life and there's a 90 per cent or better chance you'll be cut doing it. Most of what I've seen in all systems is totally impractical and I bring this opinion to you with over 27 years of experience in law enforcement. I know some can honestly relate true stories on such and such a technique working in a real life encounter but hell, a jump front ball kick could work with some luck but that wouldn't make it a knife defense per se. Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras