KKW Bunhae

Daniel Sullivan

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If you teach or practice KKW taekwondo, is bunhae (bunkai), or applications of the pumse, a part of your curriculum?

If so, where has the material come from?
How extensive is it; does it go beyond blocks, punches, and kicks?
Is it a part of grading or is it simply an augmentation to the class?

Thank you,
 

Jaeimseu

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We spend little to no time on poomse applications. I have seen some instructors teach an application or relate a technique to a movement in poomse, but it's not a big part of the curriculum, at all. The applications covered would very rarely go beyond the b/p/k applications. Applications are not part of our grading criteria.

Most class time on poomse is spent getting people to perform techniques "correctly," with proper stance and in the correct sequence. This is especially true for lower rank or beginner level students. I think our approach to other areas like sparring is similar. We first want to teach the correct technique, and then teach application/how to use the technique in sparring/fighting.
 

dcsma

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Yup I teach both the correct postures with the forms as well the applications of the forms to. Forms are a art with in the art so its important to know all of it.
 

Dirty Dog

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Depends on the student. With some, especially the youngsters, we're just trying to get the performance correct. With older and more advanced students, we do try to teach application as well.


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andyjeffries

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If you teach or practice KKW taekwondo, is bunhae (bunkai), or applications of the pumse, a part of your curriculum?

I have never been taught any applications beyond the responses to kicks and punches that are in the Kukkiwon textbook, DVDs and Instructor Courses (as passed on to me by my Grandmaster). Some of them are weird, but they are what they are. I practice and teach poomsae for practicing the basics (which is all really just improving muscle memory for speed of movement later) not for practical self-defence. That's done during the hoshinsool/step sparring portion of the sessions.

While I find any additional applications interesting, I do them from a "that's an interesting point of view" standpoint rather than would consider teaching them or practicing them.

I think if people want to imagine they're doing an outer hip throw while blocking or whatever that's fine, it's their imagination. However, if it makes their body movement during the block in to a weird shape then I'll correct them/deduct marks in a grading.

I personally find it a waste of energy trying to find hidden applications to the patterns when I've heard that the founders/developers of the poomsae put no such thing in there and any attempt to find them is really just adding them in after the fact.

But each to their own.
 

Gnarlie

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Poomsae is the essence of TKD and sparring is the application of poomsae. So says the KKW textbook (at least my copy does, though it is an old one).

I know, use and teach applications. The Kukkiwon textbook encourages learning the form, finding out the practicability of the movements and adapting them to the individual. This doesn't change the way the pattern is done. I view the poomsae motions as a stylised rendering of motions which can be effectively employed for self defence purposes with the right adaptations for the individual. The right adaptations can be found through sparring.

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andyjeffries

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Poomsae is the essence of TKD and sparring is the application of poomsae. So says the KKW textbook (at least my copy does, though it is an old one).

Does the current KKW textbook say this? I don't remember reading it.

I know, use and teach applications. The Kukkiwon textbook encourages learning the form, finding out the practicability of the movements and adapting them to the individual.

Again, does the current one? If so, could you give me a page reference?

This doesn't change the way the pattern is done. I view the poomsae motions as a stylised rendering of motions which can be effectively employed for self defence purposes with the right adaptations for the individual. The right adaptations can be found through sparring.

I have no issue with people imagining during poomsae what they are doing, as long as it doesn't affect the physical appearance of the poomsae.
 

Gnarlie

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Hi Master Jeffries,

My copy is old, and I don't have the current version, so I'm not sure if it's still in there. I'll investigate a friend's copy and update.
 

Gnarlie

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[h=4]In the meantime, this is from the KKW website:

"Training of Poomsae[/h] A completion of poomsae can be achieved through hard training following the 5 steps :
1. PatternThe first step of training poomsae is to learn the pattern. Concentration of spirit, eyes, angles of movements must be emphasized in addition to the accuracy of actions.2. SignificanceIn the next step, the emphasis must be laid on the balance, strength and weakness, low or high speed, respiration and poomsae line. The significance of movements, connection of pooms and the complete poomsae must be learned correctly.3. Practical UseOne must adapt what he has learned to his practical use, finding out the practicability.4. Self StyleOne must evaluate his findings about the effectiveness of what he has learned, comparing with his bodily structure, speed, strength, muscle strength, impulsive power, points of emphasis in training, etc., and moderate the techniques into his own style."
[h=4][/h]
 

andyjeffries

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Hi Master Jeffries

Andy is fine on here ;-) Thanks though...

My copy is old, and I don't have the current version, so I'm not sure if it's still in there. I'll investigate a friend's copy and update.

I'll have a look tonight if I get a chance and see if I can see it too. I don't remember seeing it (and I have read it multiple times), but I'd be interested to know if it does state that. I tend to be a stickler for accuracy so that would affect how I view things.

If it's not in there, then I'd tend to ignore it. It may be outdated advice (now they don't advice it so I won't do it) or it may have been a mistake or entry by a single person last time that was an outlier.
 

Gnarlie

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Also from the website:

[h=4]Definition of Poomsae[/h] "Each poom of the poomsae has been inherited through a long history of about 5,000 years, finally as a product of scientific technique formulated on the basis of the traditional national spirit and practical experiments. From the technical viewpoint, the poomsae itself is Taekwondo, and the basic movements are no more than the preliminary actions to reach the poomsae. The Kyorugi is a practical application of the poomsae and the Taekwondo spirit is manifested not in an abstract mental philosophy expressed in the documents but in the actions of poomsae. Then, what is the Taekwondo poomsae? The poomsae is the style of conduct which expresses directly or indirectly mental and physical refinements as well as the principles of offense and defense resulting from cultivation of Taekwondo spirit and techniques. "
 

andyjeffries

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In the meantime, this is from the KKW website:
3. Practical Use - One must adapt what he has learned to his practical use, finding out the practicability.

I would understand this to mean though that one should try to apply techniques from poomsae during step sparring. To apply poomsae movements to sparring situations to see if/how they work. Rather than trying to counter-fit imagined practical uses back in to poomsae.

I guess it depends on what you want it to say though ;-)
 

andyjeffries

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Also from the website:

Definition of Poomsae

"Each poom of the poomsae has been inherited through a long history of about 5,000 years, finally as a product of scientific technique formulated on the basis of the traditional national spirit and practical experiments. From the technical viewpoint, the poomsae itself is Taekwondo, and the basic movements are no more than the preliminary actions to reach the poomsae. The Kyorugi is a practical application of the poomsae and the Taekwondo spirit is manifested not in an abstract mental philosophy expressed in the documents but in the actions of poomsae. Then, what is the Taekwondo poomsae? The poomsae is the style of conduct which expresses directly or indirectly mental and physical refinements as well as the principles of offense and defense resulting from cultivation of Taekwondo spirit and techniques. "

And I still agree with this. It's about applying poomsae to sparring (not Shihap Kyorugi which is Olympic-style sparring, but the other types) not changing poomsae to be something they weren't.
 

Gnarlie

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Agree :) - but until someone gives a good explanation for Keumgang Makki (Hakdari Seogi - I started a thread on this a couple of months back) beyond simultaneous high and low block, for example, I'm going to keep experimenting until I find a fit that I'm happy with. Thinking about the alternatives for movements in this way helps me to learn principles, and I find that a positive. I'm not after changing the movement, just finding out what it can do.
 

Gnarlie

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Does the current KKW textbook say this? I don't remember reading it.



Again, does the current one? If so, could you give me a page reference?



I have no issue with people imagining during poomsae what they are doing, as long as it doesn't affect the physical appearance of the poomsae.

2006 Edition, p304-306
 

andyjeffries

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Agree :) - but until someone gives a good explanation for Keumgang Makki (Hakdari Seogi - I started a thread on this a couple of months back) beyond simultaneous high and low block, for example, I'm going to keep experimenting until I find a fit that I'm happy with. Thinking about the alternatives for movements in this way helps me to learn principles, and I find that a positive. I'm not after changing the movement, just finding out what it can do.

I would say that it may have had some use many years ago when it was sculpted, but no-one from that era is still alive. Now it's just a nod to the past and an interesting movement to perform. If you find a meaning that fits feel free to share though...
 

Gnarlie

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I would say that it may have had some use many years ago when it was sculpted, but no-one from that era is still alive. Now it's just a nod to the past and an interesting movement to perform. If you find a meaning that fits feel free to share though...

You're right I think. I've heard various stuff about it in the past, including that it could be:

-a standing choke with a knee strike to the thigh
-a meditation and balance development exercise
-a release from a neck grab and retaliation
-a leg sweep and throw (versus a kick)
-a purely defensive motion covering the head, body and avoiding a leg sweep
-useful as a Shihap Kyreugi technique to cover oneself while advancing with a chambered sidekick
-of some special philosophical significance

That doesn't mean I'm saying it is any of those things, but I can make it work as most of those things (to a point). Is adapting the technique to a situation wrong, if it works? I'm not saying any of this is right, just considering options. I also don't imagine any of those things when performing Keumgang - it's the pure movement in the pattern.
 

dancingalone

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Agree :) - but until someone gives a good explanation for Keumgang Makki (Hakdari Seogi - I started a thread on this a couple of months back) beyond simultaneous high and low block, for example, I'm going to keep experimenting until I find a fit that I'm happy with. Thinking about the alternatives for movements in this way helps me to learn principles, and I find that a positive. I'm not after changing the movement, just finding out what it can do.

I have a karate-based answer for this, but I'm afraid to write further... :)
 

dancingalone

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If you teach or practice KKW taekwondo, is bunhae (bunkai), or applications of the pumse, a part of your curriculum?

If so, where has the material come from?
How extensive is it; does it go beyond blocks, punches, and kicks?
Is it a part of grading or is it simply an augmentation to the class?

Thank you,

My sabunim says there is no such thing as bunkai within TKD which seems to be accurate. However, as I am also a karate-ka, I am very interested in bunkai and I have taught karate-sourced bunkai in the past within TKD classes as a major component to the curriculum.
 

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