Bunkai taught in the original kwans?

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MAist25

MAist25

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I agree that "application" is a very broad term. As I've seen, basic applications are frequently included in martial arts texts, often portraying the basic techniques of the form coming to use in various combat scenarios. However, this type of application is very simple and one does not need too much guidance to figure these out. What I am interested in are discovering what the movements of the forms were trying to teach before they became the "labeled" techniques we use today when teaching forms. What I want to find is some sort of definitive evidence that early Korean masters understood this idea, and possibly taught forms with this in mind. Not, "well we use the low block to defend against a kick and then counter by stepping in and punching." Although an application, this is an elementary application.
 

Gorilla

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The operative phrase is 'training applications'. What exactly do we mean by that?

Most everyone says they train kata/hyung applications. Of course they do - the alternative would be 'well, we think the forms are good exercise and they teach idealized form, and they're kinda pretty and cool for competitions'. Furthermore, I'm sure all those people probably are speaking truth as they understand it. They aren't liars.

But the devil is in the details. What does one's syllabus really look like? A typical practice? What do the drills look like? How do you measure or determine competency in bunkai? Questions of these sort go further in my opinion to peel back the nature of the martial art one studies rather than just blankly stating that 'yeah, we study apps'.

Not necessarily aimed at you, Gorilla. Your post just gave me an opportunity to sound off.

My inderstanding is that Bunkai is training the practical applications of a Poomsae or Kata...my guess is that you guys have passion around Bunkai and level of understanding far greater than mine. I have enjoyed this thread!
 

Makalakumu

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As far as I know, none of the GMs of the original Kwans passed on any bunkai they may have learned. I am pretty sure, based on comparisons with other forms of Japanese karate, that most of the GMs were not taught bunkai. That said, that doesn't mean TSD practitioners can't learn and practice bunkai in their arts. This is going to require rethinking the traditional TSD syllabus though. The typical lesson for a bunkai based syllabus is going to be a lot different then how TSD is normally taught. Also, the way in which you learn kata will also be different.

Here is a sample lesson plan and requirement list for one entire kata. Each kata in a bunkai based syllabus will have a set of requirements and lessons unique to it.

Pinan Shodan Requirements

Conditioning

Warm-up #1

Martial arts yoga
Shadow boxing
- Covering up
- Bob and weave
- X Footwork
- Punch/Kick Combos
- 1-8 basic blocks
Warm-up #2

Basic Stretching
Basic Falls
- Seated side fall
- Kneeling face fall
- Kneeling front fall
- Kneeling front roll
- Squatting back fall
- Kneeling back roll
- Barrel roll
Basics

Striking

Jab
Cross
Hook
Uppercut
Forearm strike
Knife hand
Palm strike
Back fist
Downward elbow
Side kick
Roundhouse kick
Front kick
Basic Kick and Punch Combo
Hip strike

Defensive Strategy

Dodging
Covering up
Fence position
Striking hands
Opening hands
Sweeping hands
Trapping hands
Hooking hands
Scooping hands

Body Shifting

Basic X footwork
Bob and Weave
Front stance footwork
Back stance footwork
Horse stance footwork
Open stance footwork

Falling

Seated side fall
Kneeling front fall
Kneeling front roll
Kneeling face fall
Squatting back fall
Kneeling back roll
Barrel roll
Standing side fall
Standing back fall
Standing face fall
Hidden step face fall
Standing front fall/roll

Throwing

Major outside reap
Inner leg reap
Outside Foot Stop

Joint Locks

Wrist lock
Wrist lock into throw
Standing armbar takedown

Wrestling

Front clinch
Rear clinch
Overhooks
Underhooks

Forms

Moves 1-4 – Application One
Moves 5-9 – Application Two
Moves 10-14 – Application Three
Moves 15-18 – Application Four
Moves 19-22 – Application Five
Moves 22-24 – Application Six
Moves 25-28 – Application Seven
Moves 29-32 – Application Eight
Moves 33-36 – Application Nine
Moves 37-40 – Application Ten
Moves 41-45 – Application Eleven
Moves 46-49 – Application Twelve

Sparring

Jab, Cross Hook, Uppercut drill
Punch only sparring, point sparring to contact.
Grabbing a push or grabbing a kick.
Sticky hands sparring
Uke and tori perform punch hubbad drill and feel for the right moment to kiai and attempt a trap.
Palm strike hubbad on both sides until hooking hands armbar is achieved.
Elbow hubbad to push and rear clinch. Throw in a minor German suplex just for shock factor.
Regular contact sparring where one person tries to open up targets with the hands.
Kick-block-double strike drill
Contact sparring
Contact sparring with clinching

Principles

Application Principles

The knockout
Use of force laws
Preventing the KO head bounce
Pulling a push – Kazushi
Fence Position
First Strike
Fence position/redirection
Okuden – hidden moves
Right and Left handed applications in kata
Kiai with striking
Breaking boards
Holding a board
Timing – go no sen timing, sen timing, sen no sen timing.
One point
Timing

Anatomy

St-5
Mind Point
Gall Bladder Plexus
Gb - 31
Gb – 24
St – 9
Tw – 11
Gb Plexus
Mind point
Gb - 20
Bl – 40

Energy

Kiai
Meridian Theory

Research

Who was Anko Itosu?


















Pinan Shodan Lessons

Application 1

Warm-up #1

Basics

Jab
Cross
Hook
Uppercut
Back stance footwork
Opening block

Forms

Opening sequence - Moves 1-4

Uke throws a haymaker and tori steps in and blocks with a simultaneous strike. Tori’s blocking hand throws a hook to the back of the head turning uke’s chin toward the arm. Tori throws an uppercut to the chin, pulling down on the head at the same time, resulting in a KO and possible neck crank.

Sparring

Jab, Cross Hook, Uppercut drill

Principles

The knockout
St-5
Mind Point
Gall Bladder Plexus
Meridian Theory

Application 2

Warm-up #2

Basics

Back stance footwork
Opening block
Cross punch
Hook punch
Front clinch
Overhook
Forearm strike (clothesline)
Major outside reap
Standing side fall/roll

Forms

Second repetition of opening sequence up to straight arm turn - Moves 5-9

Uke punches and tori blocks opening up uke to a simultaneous punch. Tori hook punches the chin with the blocking hand, turns the hips, overhooks and clotheslines uke with the opposite hand. At the exact same time as the clothesline, tori sweeps uke’s leg.

Sparring

Punch only sparring, point sparring to contact.

Principles

Use of force laws
Preventing the KO head bounce

Application 3

Warm-up #1

Basics

Chest push
Dodging
Horse stance footwork
Pulling in hands
Side kick
Wrist lock
Standing side fall

Forms

Grab kick to double hands - Moves 10-14

Uke tries to push tori. Tori steps off line and grabs the push, pulling uke off balance. Tori throws a side kick at the leg of uke and applies a joint lock.

Sparring

Grabbing a push or grabbing a kick.

Principles

Pulling a push – Kazushi

Application 4

Warm-up #2

Basics

Fence position
Opening block
Roundhouse kick
Knife hand
Palm strike
Underhook
Front clinch

Forms

Series of shuto uke - Moves 15-18

Uke is showing aggression and moves forward to attack. Tori uses the fence position and strikes first to delivers a leg kick to the outside of uke’s thigh. Tori pushes uke’s hands down and strikes with either a palm strike to the face or knife hand to side of the neck. Tori ends with underhook clinch.

Sparring

Sticky hands sparring

Principles

Gb – 31
Gb – 24
St – 9
Fence Position
First Strike

Application 5

Warm-up #1

Basics

Straight punch
Trapping block
Wrist lock into throw
Standing side fall

Forms

End of first half of pinan shodan - Moves 19-22

Uke throws a straight punch and tori performs a kiai into a trapping block. Then tori performs a wrist lock and takes uke down.

Sparring

Uke and tori perform punch hubbad drill and feel for the right moment to kiai and attempt a trap.

Principles

Kiai

Application 6

Warm-up #2

Basics

Palm strike
Sweeping hands
Hooking hands
Standing armbar takedown
Standing face fall
Hidden step face fall

Forms

First 45 degree shuto set - Moves 22-24

Uke slaps tori with a palm strike. Tori steps in and performs the sweeping block ending with hooking hands. Tori turns into an armbar takedown.

Sparring

Palm strike hubbad on both sides until hooking hands armbar is achieved.

Principles

Armbar points
Fence position/redirection

Application 7

Warm-up #1

Basics

Downward elbow
Sweeping block
Scooping hands
Overhook
Rear clinch

Forms

Second 45 degree shuto set - Moves 25-28

Uki is close in and attempts a close elbow. Tori performs the sweeping hands and guides the elbow around. Then, tori pushes uke’s elbow turning his back. Tori achieves the overhook rear clinch on uke.

Sparring

Elbow hubbad to push and rear clinch. Throw in a minor german suplex just for shock factor.

Principles

Okuden – hidden moves

Application 8

Warm-up #2

Basics

Punch
Opening hands
Front stance footwork
Backfist
Front kick
Reverse punch

Forms

Starting down the middle the second time - Moves 29-32

Uke punches and tori steps offline with opening hands. Tori strikes the temple with a backfist and kicks the knee with a front kick that spins uke around to the back. Tori grabs uke by the collar and punches him in the back of the head.

Sparring

Regular contact sparring where one person tries to open up targets with the hands.

Principles

Gb Plexus
Mind point
Gb - 20
Bl – 40

Application 9

Warm-up #1

Same as above, but left handed - Moves 33-36

Principles

Right and Left handed applications in kata

Applications 10

Warm-up #2

Basics

Front kick
Front stance footwork
Sweeping block
Back Fist
Cross punch
Overhook/underhook combo
Outside foot stop
Standing front fall/roll

Forms

Double strike at end of kata - Moves 37-40

Uke throws a front kick. Tori steps at 45 degrees and sweeps leg aside. Tori’s blocking arm sweeps up and backfists the nose while his other hand reverse punches the solar plexus. Tori takes upper hand and grabs uke behind the head. He takes lower hand and grabs uke’s arm. Tori pivots and performs outside foot stop.

Sparring

Kick-block-double strike drill

Principles

Kiai with striking
Breaking boards
Holding a board

Application 11

Warm-up #1

Basics

Basic Kick and Punch Combo
Open stance footwork
Striking Block
Opening Block
Forearm strike
Underhook
Front clinch
Inner leg reap
Standing back fall/roll

Forms

First down block, knife hand, 45 degree rising block - Moves 41-45

Uke tries a punch kick combo and tori deflects both strikes with one hand. Tori steps in with a strike to the neck and sweeps the inner leg.

Sparring

Contact sparring

Principles

Timing – go no sen timing, sen timing, sen no sen timing.

Application 12

Warm-up #2

Basics

Basic punch and kick combo
Open stance footwork
Sweeping block
Opening block
Forearm strike
Hip strike

Forms

Second downblock, knife hand, rising block combo - Moves 46-49

Uke throws a kick and punch combo. Tori dodges to the outside and sweeps the kick aside and stops the punch with a knifehand to the upper arm. Tori steps in on uke’s one point and strikes under the chin with a forearm strike. Tori uses a hip strike to throw uke away from him

Sparring

Contact sparring with pushing

Principles

One point
Timing





Extra Lessons

Application 13

Warm-up #1

Basics

Front Kick
Scooping Block
Horse stance footwork
Basic Punch
Scoop Throw
Instep Kick

Forms

This application occurs between application two and three where tori pivots in horse stance.

Uke throws a front kick at tori and tori uses a scooping block to pick up the kick. Tori steps in and punches tori to S-5 and continues the arm past the jaw into a cross face. Tori can scoop throw at this point with a pivot or tori can kick the support leg with an instep kick and then scoop throw.

Sparring

Grabbing a kick sparring

Principles

One point
Timing
Spleen 9
Stomach 5
 

K-man

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I've enjoyed sitting back and watching this thread develop. If I were to stick my neck out it would say that very little, if any, bunkai was taught in Japanese Karate and absolutely none in TKD. I would even say very little was taught in Okinawa. The reason is simple. Kata is for everyone. Bunkai is tailored for the individual. The bunkai for a 5'3" female will be totally different to the bunkai for a 6'7" male.

There has been mention made of Taira Sensei who is one of the few people from Okinawa publicly teaching bunkai. He himself was not taught bunkai. He was obviously given good instruction in techniques and basics and was told by his teacher to go away and study the kata. What he is showing us today is the result of his studies. Even then, his bunkai is constantly evolving from one training session we have with him to the next.

Most of our training is centred around bunkai. What I teach is the bunkai Taira Sensei taught me. I then ask my more advanced students to modify the bunkai to make it work for them. There are no 'set in concrete' applications so if you ever find anything in a book or video, it is one person's interpretation, and some of those are really good. Dancingalone mentioned George Dillman and Iain Abernethy. Pat McCarthy is another and of course Masaji Taira. These guys have spent a lifetime analysing kata for the applications to develop bunkai.

What I would suggest is this. If you applications are not hands on as in holding or controlling it is not bunkai. If you technique in the bunkai was to fail, the next move in the kata should lead you into the next application. If it doesn't you are practising an application, not a bunkai. And, more controversially, if your application is a 'block' I would again suggest your interpretation is not bunkai.
:asian:
 
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MAist25

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So basically, what I'm starting to get from this thread is that the techniques that the creators of the kata originally wanted to pass along are long gone. Also, the overall point of focus or specific aspect of combat that the creator intended to address, is also gone...
 

dancingalone

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Could you qualify "dearth" a bit better? I understand what you are saying but would like to know, compared to your main style, how much more would you be expecting to see?

I'm looking for a cohesive theme of fighting tactics woven tightly around physical technique taught through basics and then solo/partner kata practice. I know my share of TKD and TSD martial artists (I hold rank in two different TKD styles myself) and none of them teach their students how to fight in the same fashion my Goju-ryu teacher taught me. TKD and TSD dojang typically have basics, one step sparring, self-defense, tournament style sparring, and then free sparring. There's NO real connection from each sector to another. Sure the basics are a foundation to the others, but what is done in the poomsae/hyung is nothing like in the hosinsul or the one steps.

It's rather different in Okinawan karate, or it should be anyway. You probably know at least one Naihanchi kata, so let's use Naihanchi Shodan as an example. The most fundamental strategem once we get past getting offline from an attack is the idea of trapping and striking. That's the lesson I've seen over and over again from every Okinawan karate stylist I've met who uses Naihanchi. The lead hand closest to the attacker traps and the rear hand strikes. So the double punch at the end of each half of the kata is a trap or diversionary push or pull of a limb and the rear hand counters. And the reinforced downwards back knuckle strike is a trap with the 'reinforcing' arm and the back knuckle is the smashing counter. That's just two basic bunkai, but it's very effective if we can do it.

So how do we get there? Obviously, it's not enough to just train the solo kata. We have to drill each trap and strike sequence on its own in the air for familiarity, then against a bag to build power, and then with a partner for fluidity and dynamics. If we're lucky enough to practice a style that has an explanatory partner set for Naihanchi that's fantastic. Otherwise, we can just practice the movements over and over again with a partner like in a hubud drill from Filipino MA. In recent years, it's also become fashionable to construct and practice partner flow drills based on a specific kata that lets one work through many applications in a seamless dance with one another as uke and tori attack, counter, and recounter.

So I'm looking for that type of training - that's what I mean by dearth from my prior post. None of GM Hwang Kee's senior students talk about a comprehensive pedagogy involving hyung. They may publish a few explanations of the simple block/punch/kick type which is fine and all, but that's it. When I read through the standard TKD or TSD school syllabus that uses the old forms I don't see that they KNOW the forms. They know the choreography but they have not become the form - they have not poured themselves into the hyung to the point that the pattern itself has become meaningless in their expression of it. They are still following a script instead of actualizing the ideas the form is supposed to contain if that makes sense at all.
 

Earl Weiss

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So basically, what I'm starting to get from this thread is that the techniques that the creators of the kata originally wanted to pass along are long gone. Also, the overall point of focus or specific aspect of combat that the creator intended to address, is also gone...

I think there may be a semantics issue but IMNSHO I think your statement is accurate. While we may not know what was the original intent or intentions since there very likely may very well have been more than one created concurrently we may very well know and be able to perform those techniques and aspects originaly intended. We are smart enough to figure stuff out. We just have no way of knowing if it was an original intent or not.

Then again by trying to determine or claim a single point of focus is one application may very well miss the "Original Point". Perhaps the original point was simply learning how to move quickly, efficiently, powerfuly in a well balanced way for certain angles, distances and directions. Once that was accomplished the motion could be applied in any number of ways as practical considerations and circumstances warranted. I.E. Daniel San - Wax on, wax off.
 

dancingalone

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Good post from Mr. Weiss. I mostly concur. As I alluded to above a few posts back however, there are styles of karate that have clear expectations of what each specific kata teaches though. It may not be the original intent (various lineages will argue sometimes with sound basis that they do know the intent as taught by their founder) but the idea is schematically sound and well integrated in their style, so it IS the intent in their system.
 

oftheherd1

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I just noticed this thread. I read the first page but I'm not going to read the whole thing. But I can tell you that when I taught Hapkido, one of my students was a 4th Dan in TKD. There were times when I would teach a technique, and he would get a certain stare. I would ask and he would relate that he recognized that move from a certain kata he had learned. Usually it was distorted a little and not easy to recognize the correct move of the technique or its intent/application.

Usually he related practitioners who asked what the move was in the kata, were told it was just art, from the art side of martial arts. I can remember being told that a couple of times those many years ago when I studied TKD. I never questioned that since as an 8th Green, that wasn't my place, simply to learn the kata. I was never told that kata could usually be considered multiple-attacker defense either.

At any rate, that happened with my student several times up to and just beyond 1st Dan. So I conclude somewhere along the line, kata was learned, and since it went beyond kick, punch, block, it wasn't understood, and if questioned, if the instructor didn't know or didn't want to say/teach, he would just say it was art. Since seeing the question come up here in MT several times, I wish I had written down and correlated the specific move of the kata in question with the Hapkido technique.
 

reeskm

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I've enjoyed sitting back and watching this thread develop. If I were to stick my neck out it would say that very little, if any, bunkai was taught in Japanese Karate and absolutely none in TKD.

This happens to be my hypothesis as well. It seems the early days of Karate in mainland Japan and Korea developed along these lines. Most students (not including old masters here) seem to have been most interested in developing the most powerful kicking and punching techniques, and creating what today is considered sport karate, which one can argue has led to more modern forms like PKA kick boxing, Olympic WTF TKD, and K1/UFC MMA

I currently believe that interest in bunkai/applications is quite rare and confined to a small number of traditionalists like ourselves that are interested in preserving traditional MA

K-man, I respectfully disagree with your last paragraph. While holds, joint locks and take-downs (what I interpret "holding and controlling" is) are something I was taught is essential and part of my style by my teacher, I do not believe that they are the only possible bunkai. I also do not particularly agree with the point of view of some that bunkai must be confined to a direct sequence in a kata. In other words, I do not believe for ex that Passai moves 1-4 must be done in succession in order to make an explanation. You can mix and match the opening x-leg back-fist with a later move is what I'm saying.

But maybe this is just too much detail! :D
 

reeskm

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So basically, what I'm starting to get from this thread is that the techniques that the creators of the kata originally wanted to pass along are long gone. Also, the overall point of focus or specific aspect of combat that the creator intended to address, is also gone...

MAist25,
yes, I believe this is very true and I believe that even in very traditional Japanese karate circles this is a well known fact. That's why really well regarded historians like Patrick McCarthy have spent a lifetime of research trying to find out this kind of information.

To see a very critical view of bunkai, reference this thread: (i hope I'm allowed to do this here):
http://www.traditionalfightingartsforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=2573
The author of 24 Fighting Chickens believes this is all a modern invention.
 

reeskm

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Dancingalone:
Yes, I can agree with this (Post #47). In TSD anyway, where I hold rank, I know of these trap and grab applications. However, we don't learn a form and then directly drill those exact moves on a regular basis.

This is usually done in an advanced class, seminar or when an instructor decides to throw it in during a class. It's not done in a consistent manner like you seem to be suggesting.

This might have a historical basis. Of the kwan heads that had experience in Japan or had a direct connection to japanese Karate, they did not train in Okinawa to my knowledge. Most spent time in the Japanese university karate clubs and schools and would have followed that type of syllabus or curriculum.

So I think the answer would be found by looking at Chuo/Takashoku university's programs in the 1940s, with the exception of Yoon Kwei-Byung who also spent time with Mabuni in Osaka and also with Toyama at Chuo Univ.
 

dancingalone

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MAist25,
To see a very critical view of bunkai, reference this thread: (i hope I'm allowed to do this here):
http://www.traditionalfightingartsforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=2573
The author of 24 Fighting Chickens believes this is all a modern invention.


Rob Redmond was a Shotokan guy before he quit karate. He's a fun read, but he's not an authority in Okinawan karate imo. I suggest Mario Mckenna's blog for another perspective. You've probably seen it if you read about older karate on the web.
 
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dancingalone

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Dancingalone:
Yes, I can agree with this (Post #47). In TSD anyway, where I hold rank, I know of these trap and grab applications. However, we don't learn a form and then directly drill those exact moves on a regular basis.

This is usually done in an advanced class, seminar or when an instructor decides to throw it in during a class. It's not done in a consistent manner like you seem to be suggesting.

I gather sometimes that a lot of TKD/TSD people feel their training feeds into sparring. That effectiveness in sparring is what they are studying and practicing for even though they realize on a rational level that sparring is not the same thing as fighting.

This might have a historical basis. Of the kwan heads that had experience in Japan or had a direct connection to japanese Karate, they did not train in Okinawa to my knowledge. Most spent time in the Japanese university karate clubs and schools and would have followed that type of syllabus or curriculum.

So I think the answer would be found by looking at Chuo/Takashoku university's programs in the 1940s, with the exception of Yoon Kwei-Byung who also spent time with Mabuni in Osaka and also with Toyama at Chuo Univ.

Absolutely. Undoubtedly the Japanese university club connection is the reason for the widely prevalent free sparring too. And the lack of kobudo training, etc.
 
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MAist25

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My hypothesis has also been that bunkai was not passed along to the original TKD masters. And I believe it is absolutely true that even though we have lost the original intent of the creator of each kata, that there is still much to be learned from them. Iain Abernethy never ceases to amaze me with his stuff, and I don't believe there are too many people on this earth with his understanding of kata. However, I still find it odd that the original intents of kata were not preserved even in Okinawa, as reeskm is claiming. I understand how they may have been no longer taught by Itosu, but he was only one of many To-De experts on Okinawa at that time. How was this knowledge not preserved through other masters? Or did they all follow in Itosu's footsteps?
 

reeskm

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I just noticed this thread. I read the first page but I'm not going to read the whole thing. But I can tell you that when I taught Hapkido, one of my students was a 4th Dan in TKD. There were times when I would teach a technique, and he would get a certain stare. I would ask and he would relate that he recognized that move from a certain kata he had learned. Usually it was distorted a little and not easy to recognize the correct move of the technique or its intent/application.

I visited a Hapkido school for several nights on a business trip. It was eye opening. I had this exact same "Aha!" moment too.

However, in my case it came from looking at a chart on their wall of their various throws and join locks/arm bars on their wall. I noticed that our ho-sin-sool (self defense one step routines) were incredibly similar. The major difference was that we had always applied these techniques after the attacker initiates a wrist grab, punch or a kick, whereas the hapkido school would just reach out, grab someone and apply the technique.

However, unlike your ex-TKD student, I was always taught that the hyung/kata was more than simply a dance or a routine that is art. I was always told that they contain the essence of the art. I have memories as a green belt (intermediate gup) that my instructor would break down the hyung for us often and show us how to apply the kata moves. I have good memories of the pyung ahn #3 spearhand, grab spin and punch application. At the time, that was an eye opener.
 

reeskm

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Rob Redmond was a Shotokan guy before he quit karate. He's a fun read, but he's not an authority in Okinawan karate imo. I suggest Mario Mckenna's blog for another perspective. You've probably seen it if you read about older karate on the web.

(Re: Sensei McKenna) Yes I've recently contacted him. He's from Lethbridge originally, about a 2 hour drive from Calgary. Right down the road as far as Canada goes :)

Rob Redmond is an interesting read. I don't always agree with what he says but like to consider his point of view. He's not afraid of making controversial arguments.
 
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reeskm

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I gather sometimes that a lot of TKD/TSD people feel their training feeds into sparring. That effectiveness in sparring is what they are studying and practicing for even though they realize on a rational level that sparring is not the same thing as fighting.

Interesting you mention it. While I don't dispute this at all, since I know other TSD schools well, our school has recently gone the complete opposite direction in the last 5 years, with our Kwan Jang, once highly ranked in competition in the 80's, has preached a return to the traditional and put much less focus on tournament/sport sparring.

Not that he can't or doesn't teach it effectively, mind you. But, his claim is that "tournaments are 5% of the art, if that" taking the view that it is important for martial artists to experience competition but that there is so, so much more than tournaments or sport sparring to make a well rounded MA.
 

dancingalone

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Yes I've recently contacted him. He's from Lethbridge originally, about a 2 hour drive from Calgary. Right down the road..:)

Neat. I would love to see his kata in person. His karate comes from Higashionna unfiltered through Miyagi, so as a Goju guy I have a more than passing curiosity about it.

Do you know any of the Legacy shorin-ryu group? I am friends with some there.
 

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