KKW Bunhae

[FieldDiscipline]

I think if people want to imagine they're doing an outer hip throw while blocking or whatever that's fine, it's their imagination. However, if it makes their body movement during the block in to a weird shape then I'll correct them/deduct marks in a grading.

I personally find it a waste of energy trying to find hidden applications to the patterns when I've heard that the founders/developers of the poomsae put no such thing in there and any attempt to find them is really just adding them in after the fact.

On the face of it the bold section is probably true. It however overlooks the fact that the KKW poomsae are in many places repackaged karate kata, and the guys who formulated the kata did put such things in there. Not trying to change your approach, it's down to objectives and the KKW certainly don't seem to be interested in this based on their materials.

As an aside, the idea isn't really that you imagine the technique whilst practicing the pattern, rather that you disect it and practise the technique outside of it, learn the principles and seek other uses of those principles.

It is obvious that these kata must be trained and practised sufficiently, but one must not be 'stuck' in them. One must withdraw from the kata to produce forms with no limits or else it becomes useless. It is important to alter the form of the trained kata without hesitation to produce countless other forms of training.

knowledge of just the sequence of a kata in karate is useless.

Of course TKD is not karate, and with the predominant emphasis of a lot of people who do poomsae being sport or competition it's not relevant to them. But it's not imagination, the techniques are there.

 

[Gnarlie]

I have a karate-based answer for this, but I'm afraid to write further...

Please do, I'm always glad of new perspectives - I looked back through a few Kata to see if I could find a relationship out of interest, but this specific motion has eluded me for some time. There is something similar in one of the Shotokan Kata, Gankaku, if I recall correctly. I can't speak from everyone, but I promise to take your view in the spirit it is intended.

 

[dancingalone]

Please do, I'm always glad of new perspectives - I looked back through a few Kata to see if I could find a relationship out of interest, but this specific motion has eluded me for some time. There is something similar in one of the Shotokan Kata, Gankaku, if I recall correctly. I can't speak from everyone, but I promise to take your view in the spirit it is intended.

My karate teacher says that one legged stances should 1) be interpreted as precursory motion for evading an attack 2) be an outright attack such as a knee kick or be an oblique reference to another kick of your own 3) or be a obscured modifier to the adjacent motion.

In this particular example, I would suggest that #3 applies. It is a reminder that you should use your knees along with perhaps a foot stomp to create upward power as you use the down/up 'block' double armed action, which can be interpreted as securing an assailant's arm and attacking it at the joint line with an upward smash.

 

[Gnarlie]

My karate teacher says that one legged stances should 1) be interpreted as precursory motion for evading an attack 2) be an outright attack such as a knee kick or be an oblique reference to another kick of your own 3) or be a obscured modifier to the adjacent motion.

In this particular example, I would suggest that #3 applies. It is a reminder that you should use your knees along with perhaps a foot stomp to create upward power as you use the down/up 'block' double armed action, which can be interpreted as securing an assailant's arm and attacking it at the joint line with an upward smash.

Nice. I've considered that the one leg stance might indicate that a weight shift is required to generate force to the Kheun Dolzeoghi (large hinge) that follows the Keumgang Makki. Never looked at the arm motion as a joint attack, though, that's a new one for me! Thanks

 

[ETinCYQX]

For some of the unique techniques, like Taegeuk 7 with the shoulder grab and knee, I do, just to give some perspective. Otherwise no.

I did do a demo that was basic 1 (taikyoku shodan, kicho 1) with one person in the middle and three partners, worked out ok.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have never really been taught applications of the pumse in the manner that karateka learn them. I learned a large number of 'one step' techniques, many of which were found in the pumse, that segued into other techniques, such as sonnal makki segueing into a grab.

But the pumse were never specifically broken down. I'd say that it is a difference in teaching method; in hapkido, all we learn is techniques. In Taekwondo, I learned forms for their own value and I learned techniques (such as throws and such) as a separate part of the class. In karate, from what I have seen, heard, and read, techniques and kata are taught together.

No better/worse or right/wrong; just different teaching methods. I think that part of the reason for this is that the mentality is different. Dancingalone or any other karateka can correct me if I'm wrong, but part of the reason for hiding the techniques in the form was to keep rival schools from seeing what you were doing. That was not a consideration in taekwondo.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I think if people want to imagine they're doing an outer hip throw while blocking or whatever that's fine, it's their imagination. However, if it makes their body movement during the block in to a weird shape then I'll correct them/deduct marks in a grading.

I personally find it a waste of energy trying to find hidden applications to the patterns when I've heard that the founders/developers of the poomsae put no such thing in there and any attempt to find them is really just adding them in after the fact.

But each to their own.

I also don't personally feel the need to do this type of thing. If an instructor wants to "spice up" poomse training by teaching alternative applications then I don't have a problem with it, but I feel like it's a bit dishonest (or at least incorrect) to make the claim that the alternative applications are the "real," "hidden," or "original" applications, from the standpoint of Kukki Taekwondo anyway.

I haven't spent any time on things like grappling applications in poomse, but it has always seemed like an inefficient way to teach techniques. If I want to learn or teach a throw or a lock, wouldn't be easier to just learn a throw or a lock, not to mention much more practical to just work it with another person than imagine it by myself in a form? In this day and age I would think there wouldn't be a need to go looking for "hidden" techniques. I would imagine this kind of information is pretty readily available if you really want to learn.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If an instructor wants to "spice up" poomse training by teaching alternative applications then I don't have a problem with it, but I feel like it's a bit dishonest (or at least incorrect) to make the claim that the alternative applications are the "real," "hidden," or "original" applications, from the standpoint of Kukki Taekwondo anyway.

My feelings as well.

I haven't spent any time on things like grappling applications in poomse, but it has always seemed like an inefficient way to teach techniques. If I want to learn or teach a throw or a lock, wouldn't be easier to just learn a throw or a lock, not to mention much more practical to just work it with another person than imagine it by myself in a form? In this day and age I would think there wouldn't be a need to go looking for "hidden" techniques. I would imagine this kind of information is pretty readily available if you really want to learn.

I used to be very hung up on this... back when I first got my black belt and thought that I knew everything. Four years after that, I realized that I was just trying make myself feel like I was more knowledgeable than I really was. Since that time, I just practice the pumse as they are and practice applications separately and... lo and behold... I learned a lot more and my taekwondo got better.

 

[dancingalone]

I haven't spent any time on things like grappling applications in poomse, but it has always seemed like an inefficient way to teach techniques. If I want to learn or teach a throw or a lock, wouldn't be easier to just learn a throw or a lock, not to mention much more practical to just work it with another person than imagine it by myself in a form? In this day and age I would think there wouldn't be a need to go looking for "hidden" techniques. I would imagine this kind of information is pretty readily available if you really want to learn.

Keep in mind that bunkai is more than a collection of techniques. Some karate-ka such as myself believe the kata to be an encyclopedia containing tactical information for emerging victoriously from various scenarios. Sometimes as defenders, sometimes as aggressors (sorry Funakoshi Sensei with all due respect to the idea that there is no first attack in karate). There is information within the forms about contact points, pressure points (no Dillman jokes, please), postural efficiencies, etc. It really does depend on the versions of the kata you practice and whether your teachers down the line handed down this information or not. In my line, kata is everything, though certainly I've been exposed to karate-ka that do not have the same frame of reference for whatever reason.

Again, this is from a karate-centric perspective. Taekwondoin would not have the same perspective for historical reasons, which at this point in time, should have no value indicator attached to it. This state is neither good nor bad by itself. It's up to individuals to decide what their daily practice consists of along with the teaching method they prefer.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Keep in mind that bunkai is more than a collection of techniques. Some karate-ka such as myself believe the kata to be an encyclopedia containing tactical information for emerging victoriously from various scenarios. Sometimes as defenders, sometimes as aggressors (sorry Funakoshi Sensei with all due respect to the idea that there is no first attack in karate). There is information within the forms about contact points, pressure points (no Dillman jokes, please), postural efficiencies, etc. It really does depend on the versions of the kata you practice and whether your teachers down the line handed down this information or not. In my line, kata is everything, though certainly I've been exposed to karate-ka that do not have the same frame of reference for whatever reason.

Again, this is from a karate-centric perspective. Taekwondoin would not have the same perspective for historical reasons, which at this point in time, should have no value indicator attached to it. This state is neither good nor bad by itself. It's up to individuals to decide what their daily practice consists of along with the teaching method they prefer.

Great post!

What are your thoughts on this:

Dancingalone or any other karateka can correct me if I'm wrong, but part of the reason for hiding the techniques in the form was to keep rival schools from seeing what you were doing. That was not a consideration in taekwondo.

 

[dancingalone]

Dancingalone or any other karateka can correct me if I'm wrong, but part of the reason for hiding the techniques in the form was to keep rival schools from seeing what you were doing. That was not a consideration in taekwondo.

I think that is part of it (see below), but it is not the primary reason for the existence of kata or bunkai in the first place IMO. I think the Okinawans were fond of the layered meaning model, not being a culture overly fond of writing histories or even textbooks. You could teach kata at a very basic level and still produce fit students with good measures of fighting ability. The students that spent more time with you could learn the deeper meanings, the more dangerous interpretations after you learned to trust them not to misuse the information as they acquired the needed prerequisite skills to study more meaningfully.

But to support the idea that bunkai was hidden knowledge: There are accounts that some of Shuri Te training was very much kept in the dark. Literally in the case of Gichin FUNAKOSHI who talks about training at night in his book because one of his teachers was so secretive about his art. There is some speculation within Matsubayashi-ryu circles that founding karate master, Shoshin NAGAMINE, integrated some elements of Okinawan folk dance deliberately into his kata, because he liked it but also because he wanted to obscure and thus de-escalate some of the bunkai. Nagamine along with Funakoshi & Itsosu were some of the pioneers we know that led the evolution of karate into a method of self-improvement rather than purely a fighting method.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yes and I will only PM on this Wednesday

My thanks, sir. I received your PM.

 

[Master Dan]

Agree - but until someone gives a good explanation for Keumgang Makki (Hakdari Seogi - I started a thread on this a couple of months back) beyond simultaneous high and low block, for example, I'm going to keep experimenting until I find a fit that I'm happy with. Thinking about the alternatives for movements in this way helps me to learn principles, and I find that a positive. I'm not after changing the movement, just finding out what it can do.

Even though I have trained with the best in the US I strongly recomend Ian Abernathy out of london go to same name .com and get his dvd on Bunkia Jutsu the forms Pinan Shodan and Heian Nidan with his break down and applicaitons will give you a wealth of information and posibilities. He is a delight to talk with and very good instructor great martial artists. especially with reference to the block you are concerned about

 

[RobinTKD]

It's my understanding (this could be completely misguided) that there is more Bunkai involved in the ITF Chang Hon forms than modern Poomse, maybe its because they are older(?) and haven't changed. We don't practice it religiously but there are certain movements that do teach good self defence skills for example in Joon-Gun the L-Stance backfist, followed by transferring to walking stance while throwing the arm out to the side, followed by a forefist punch teaches you how to shift your centre of gravity and rip your hand out of someone's grip with relative ease. Here's a video of the pattern:

At 27 seconds in is the point I'm talking about.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Ha, I thought the Chang Hun tuls were modern!

There are actually several releasing motions in various tul, not just in Joon-Gun. I can think of three others off-hand and there are many more that can be used that way even though they aren't officially listed as such. Some interesting grabs and even a couple traps, too.

Pax,

Chris

 

[RobinTKD]

Ha, I thought the Chang Hun tuls were modern!

Well older than the current Poomse, which replaced the original Palgwe's I don't know how many years ago.

There are actually several releasing motions in various tul, not just in Joon-Gun. I can think of three others off-hand and there are many more that can be used that way even though they aren't officially listed as such. Some interesting grabs and even a couple traps, too.

Pax,

Chris

Yep, the grabbing, punching motion in Yul Gok for one, the top of the head strike after the lunge punch in Hwarang, the grab block motion in Kwang Gae too.

 

[puunui]

My sabunim says there is no such thing as bunkai within TKD which seems to be accurate. However, as I am also a karate-ka, I am very interested in bunkai and I have taught karate-sourced bunkai in the past within TKD classes as a major component to the curriculum.

You have a lot of potential, so i will break my silence this one time. Forget about hunting for bunhae (a term I have never heard a korean born practitioner use, ever) in the kukkiwon poomsae for the moment. Instead, I would focus your time and energy for the next three years on learning and understanding kukki taekwondo from the perspective of the pioneers and what they envisioned for taekwondo. Take off your goju ryu colored glasses and approach it with the proverbial empty cup.

Buy the latest Kukkiwon Textbook and read it cover to cover at least ten times. The first time can be light, but each time after that should be more and more concentrated. Focus on understanding all of the taeguek and yudanja poomsae from the kukkiwon standard. Buy the Kukkiwon DVD set and watch each poomsae at least once every day you train, which should be six days a week. When you watch those videos daily, visualize that you are the performer in the video and follow along as if it were your body that was demonstrating, not someone else. Do five to ten reps each of the taeguek poomsae three times per week and ten reps of all of the yudanja poomsae three times per week. That should take you approximately 60 minutes per day for taeguek and 90 minutes per day for the yudanja poomsae, half that if you only do five reps. It is a minimal investment of time very few out there are doing. Do taeguek 1 jang ten times everyday and focus on making that form perfect. That is the most important form, in my opinion. Do that poorly, and everything that follows will be poor as well.

Learn the modern competition training methods, stance and steps, the importance of a proper roundhouse kick, how to properly hold a paddle, the value of hogu drills, sparring strategy, etc. You really need to focus on this because it is your biggest weakness in kukki taekwondo. It is not enough to know the poomsae. Here is a video that you should purchase and watch at least 100 times (ten bucks):
http://www.turtlepress.com/Taekwondo_Training_in_Korea_DVD_p/188.html

Attend as many instructional seminars as you can. I would also take the Kukkiwon Instructor Course, in Korea if you can, but if not then certainly take the ones to be offered in the US (that may start up again, in the very near future). The next one is in July in Korea. Go to that and go to next two years ones in Korea as well.

If there are any coaching seminars offered by high level coaches in your area, go attend those. make friends with as many kukki taekwondo instructors in your area. terry can and will help you with that. I would also be prepared to attend the USAT Nationals/JOs which are being held in Dallas this year in july. You don't have to bring any competitors, but I would attend, watch, and learn. If you can attend local tournaments, i would go to those as well.

I would also read the posts by jaeimseu very carefully because he lives and trains in korea so you have a direct link to what is being done there. He should be looked upon as one of the best resources for accurate up to date information on kukki taekwondo on here. His posts are clear, concise, no nonsense, and accurate.

After three years, with your background and discipline, you should have a firm grounding in kukki taekwondo. Then you will be ready and deserving of your kukkiwon 4th Dan. You talk about having standards for rank progression, so you should be able to live up to those same standards. You take to heart and do what I suggest above, and you will be head and shoulders above most taekwondoin after those three years.

Let me put it this way. It is like you have two cars in your garage, a 65 mustang, and a 12 lexus. You enjoy both for different reasons. But what you wouldn't do is put mustang parts on the lexus, or vice versa. In fact, you probably wouldn't even compare the two or try to make each into the other. Same thing with your goju ryu and taekwondo. keep them separate and apart. You have a deep love of goju ryu, that is clear. but I am not so sure about taekwondo, mainly because I don't think you really know and understand it. Take the three years and hopefully you will come to the point where it doesn't have to be either or in your mind, that you can have two different perspectives at the same time on two different but related arts. Mine are hapkido and taekwondo. Yours are goju ryu, aikido and kukki taekwondo. I keep my two separate and take polar opposite approaches with each. For taekwondo, I share with the world. For hapkido, it is a treasure that I keep hidden and share will only a few. Perhaps that is what you will do with goju ryu, I don't know. You just got promoted in aikido and goju ryu, so the three years focus on taekwondo shouldn't be an issue.

You have a commercial school now so one suggestion I have is to offer a goju ryu class. those who are interested in that type of training will gravitate to it so you don't have to go through the strokes of trying to put square pegs into round holes with the bunhae thing in your taekwondo program. Most of your taekwondo students are kids anyway, so they wouldn't be good candidates for bunhae instruction anyway.

But the main thing is when learning and training in taekwondo, to think only of taekwondo, and not goju ryu, aikido, texkwondo or whatever else you have floating in your head. Do that, and you can go far. Otherwise you will be constantly sidetracked with goju thoughts, which will only serve to impede your progress and pollute your perspective. Bruce Lee was wrong about one thing, it does matter where it comes from and we shouldn't be doing tai chi in a judo class or karate in a taekwondo class. Instead we should be doing judo in a judo class, tai chi in a tai chi class, karate in a karate class, and taekwondo in a taekwondo class.

If you need to get in touch with me, pm daniel sullivan, djinx or miguksaram. They will know how.

 

[dancingalone]

A lot to digest. My sincere thanks, sir. I will think a lot on what you say.

 

[Manny]

We spend little to no time on poomse applications. I have seen some instructors teach an application or relate a technique to a movement in poomse, but it's not a big part of the curriculum, at all. The applications covered would very rarely go beyond the b/p/k applications. Applications are not part of our grading criteria.

Most class time on poomse is spent getting people to perform techniques "correctly," with proper stance and in the correct sequence. This is especially true for lower rank or beginner level students. I think our approach to other areas like sparring is similar. We first want to teach the correct technique, and then teach application/how to use the technique in sparring/fighting.

It's the same in Hwarang Takwondo dojang, we rarely do bunkai but this is a part that I love so I am incorportaing it to my class, usually we do one or tow poomsae and then analice certain moves on them and then use the same techs inside the poomsae to do so kind of one steps, however it's only one-on-one but will be nice to tie more than one secuence using more than one partner (enemy) to perform the bunkai.

Manny

 

[RobinTKD]

You have a lot of potential, so i will break my silence this one time. Forget about hunting for bunhae (a term I have never heard a korean born practitioner use, ever) in the kukkiwon poomsae for the moment. Instead, I would focus your time and energy for the next three years on learning and understanding kukki taekwondo from the perspective of the pioneers and what they envisioned for taekwondo. Take off your goju ryu colored glasses and approach it with the proverbial empty cup.

Buy the latest Kukkiwon Textbook and read it cover to cover at least ten times. The first time can be light, but each time after that should be more and more concentrated. Focus on understanding all of the taeguek and yudanja poomsae from the kukkiwon standard. Buy the Kukkiwon DVD set and watch each poomsae at least once every day you train, which should be six days a week. When you watch those videos daily, visualize that you are the performer in the video and follow along as if it were your body that was demonstrating, not someone else. Do five to ten reps each of the taeguek poomsae three times per week and ten reps of all of the yudanja poomsae three times per week. That should take you approximately 60 minutes per day for taeguek and 90 minutes per day for the yudanja poomsae, half that if you only do five reps. It is a minimal investment of time very few out there are doing. Do taeguek 1 jang ten times everyday and focus on making that form perfect. That is the most important form, in my opinion. Do that poorly, and everything that follows will be poor as well.

Learn the modern competition training methods, stance and steps, the importance of a proper roundhouse kick, how to properly hold a paddle, the value of hogu drills, sparring strategy, etc. You really need to focus on this because it is your biggest weakness in kukki taekwondo. It is not enough to know the poomsae. Here is a video that you should purchase and watch at least 100 times (ten bucks):
http://www.turtlepress.com/Taekwondo_Training_in_Korea_DVD_p/188.html

Attend as many instructional seminars as you can. I would also take the Kukkiwon Instructor Course, in Korea if you can, but if not then certainly take the ones to be offered in the US (that may start up again, in the very near future). The next one is in July in Korea. Go to that and go to next two years ones in Korea as well.

If there are any coaching seminars offered by high level coaches in your area, go attend those. make friends with as many kukki taekwondo instructors in your area. terry can and will help you with that. I would also be prepared to attend the USAT Nationals/JOs which are being held in Dallas this year in july. You don't have to bring any competitors, but I would attend, watch, and learn. If you can attend local tournaments, i would go to those as well.

I would also read the posts by jaeimseu very carefully because he lives and trains in korea so you have a direct link to what is being done there. He should be looked upon as one of the best resources for accurate up to date information on kukki taekwondo on here. His posts are clear, concise, no nonsense, and accurate.

After three years, with your background and discipline, you should have a firm grounding in kukki taekwondo. Then you will be ready and deserving of your kukkiwon 4th Dan. You talk about having standards for rank progression, so you should be able to live up to those same standards. You take to heart and do what I suggest above, and you will be head and shoulders above most taekwondoin after those three years.

Let me put it this way. It is like you have two cars in your garage, a 65 mustang, and a 12 lexus. You enjoy both for different reasons. But what you wouldn't do is put mustang parts on the lexus, or vice versa. In fact, you probably wouldn't even compare the two or try to make each into the other. Same thing with your goju ryu and taekwondo. keep them separate and apart. You have a deep love of goju ryu, that is clear. but I am not so sure about taekwondo, mainly because I don't think you really know and understand it. Take the three years and hopefully you will come to the point where it doesn't have to be either or in your mind, that you can have two different perspectives at the same time on two different but related arts. Mine are hapkido and taekwondo. Yours are goju ryu, aikido and kukki taekwondo. I keep my two separate and take polar opposite approaches with each. For taekwondo, I share with the world. For hapkido, it is a treasure that I keep hidden and share will only a few. Perhaps that is what you will do with goju ryu, I don't know. You just got promoted in aikido and goju ryu, so the three years focus on taekwondo shouldn't be an issue.

You have a commercial school now so one suggestion I have is to offer a goju ryu class. those who are interested in that type of training will gravitate to it so you don't have to go through the strokes of trying to put square pegs into round holes with the bunhae thing in your taekwondo program. Most of your taekwondo students are kids anyway, so they wouldn't be good candidates for bunhae instruction anyway.

But the main thing is when learning and training in taekwondo, to think only of taekwondo, and not goju ryu, aikido, texkwondo or whatever else you have floating in your head. Do that, and you can go far. Otherwise you will be constantly sidetracked with goju thoughts, which will only serve to impede your progress and pollute your perspective. Bruce Lee was wrong about one thing, it does matter where it comes from and we shouldn't be doing tai chi in a judo class or karate in a taekwondo class. Instead we should be doing judo in a judo class, tai chi in a tai chi class, karate in a karate class, and taekwondo in a taekwondo class.

If you need to get in touch with me, pm daniel sullivan, djinx or miguksaram. They will know how.

My main goal in life is to reach a point where I am able to train like this, to make a living out of training like this. Thanks for the post Glenn.