Bunkai taught in the original kwans?

[RTKDCMB]

Ian Abernethy´s kata interpretations are as false as biblical interpretation of some pastors.

Are you taking a dig at Ian Abernathy, the pastors or both? Or are you stating an oxymoron (like an honest politician or reality TV star)?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Ian Abernethy´s kata interpretations are as false as biblical interpretation of some pastors.

You know each of these things because...?

 

[reeskm]

It is a compliment to an instructor to avbe the student surpass his pysical abilities. It may be difficult for a student to surpass the instructors knoowledge and experience during the instructor's lifetime since the Instructor has had a head start.

I tell my students they should be better than I ever was because they had a better instructor than I had. Not a slam at my instructor or arrogance by me, but a statement as to what I think the natural progression should be. As instructors we should try to improve upon what and how we were taught.

The exact words of my teacher, and now my current philosophy as an instructor!

I think there is a great tendency to characterize a lot of current schools as McDojo's -- and we must be careful here.
To take the idea that you would keep techniques for higher level students that proved themselves worthy - *could be* and indication of a McDojo *if* it was tied up in the motive of profit or retention.

However, I've personally seen dojos ruined due to, in my opinion, a bunch of inexperienced students thinking that they go to a McDojo based on some website they read, or some other person that claims they are more authentic/traditional than another and bashes this student's school. The students all leave because they've fallen victim to someone wise who was able to take them away from a school that was very good and did it's very best to:
a) keep the doors open and the lights on and making a reasonalbe amount of money
b) teaching a traditional martial art in a traditional way

And that, is a real shame.

I think in order to be a "McDojo" you need a large number of the usual characteristics to be very obvious. One or two aspects in today's commercial world can not in any way be an indication of a McDojo.

Then again, I'm sure some hardcore traditionalists that teach out of a community center, a free place to train or their home would disagree.
But most who want a full time traditional dojo in a big city need to lease or buy a space in a community that has a large number of potential students. And then they have to run it as honestly as possible. And that's really hard to do.

 

[Dirty Dog]

This thread has drifted a little (ok, a LOT) from the original topic...
I had lunch with our Kwanjang last week, and asked about this subject.
He was originally a student of GM Hwang, Kee, but stayed with GM Lee, Kang Ik and the Kwan unification movement.
According to him, there was no bunkai taught in the Moo Duk Kwan.
As he explains it, poomsae is intended to teach TKD, but there are no 'secrets' 'hidden' in them. There are many ways to apply each movement or series of movements within the forms, and the student should not limit themselves to thinking of any movement or series of movements as being limited to a few applications.
I also mentioned Master Weiss' comment about the student surpassing the teaching, and he agreed wholeheartedly with that sentiment.

 

[MAist25]

This thread has drifted a little (ok, a LOT) from the original topic...
I had lunch with our Kwanjang last week, and asked about this subject.
He was originally a student of GM Hwang, Kee, but stayed with GM Lee, Kang Ik and the Kwan unification movement.
According to him, there was no bunkai taught in the Moo Duk Kwan.
As he explains it, poomsae is intended to teach TKD, but there are no 'secrets' 'hidden' in them. There are many ways to apply each movement or series of movements within the forms, and the student should not limit themselves to thinking of any movement or series of movements as being limited to a few applications.
I also mentioned Master Weiss' comment about the student surpassing the teaching, and he agreed wholeheartedly with that sentiment.

That is very cool to hear from someone else so close to the source. And I believe this is true as GM Chun's teachings and writings also point to no bunkai being taught in the Moo Duk Kwan. It sounds like my Kwanjang, GM Chun, seems to have the same idea about poomsae as yours does, which is not surprising seeing as they are both from similar backgrounds. Also, I think it might be safe to say that GM Hwang probably had the least amount of formal kata training out of all the other original kwan founders, although I cannot say this for sure. But this would definitely lead me to assume that this would contribute to the lack of bunkai training in the MDK. It would be very interesting to hear from senior members of other kwans as well.

 

[reeskm]

I think that pretty much puts the debate to rest.

I think this fits in with the history of the original Kwans and founders that I know already - namely that they mostly came out of the university dojos in Tokyo during the war - which are famous for practicing "hard" karate (emphasis on physical training and sparring) and which were, in their day and today, criticized for their lack of bunkai and kata training.

However, I don't know if this riddle will ever be solved as the original Kwan founders are mostly gone or will not speak on the subject. I think we will have to form our own educated opinion on these things.

Dirtydog,
LEE, Kang Ik is different than LEE, Kang Uk correct?

When reading history books or literature on the MDK I always assumed that they were either:
a) the same person, with different romanization
b) Two different individuals

Of course, I only know of LEE, Kang Uk from the UK. I'm going to his seminar here in Canada in September.
So maybe, I can ask him about the subject.