Kicks!!! How many of what kind are needed for self defense.

[K-man]

Thanks but I was actually aware of that. When Aikido guys practice defence against kicks someone has to do them.

I'm not talking about defence against kicks. We actually do very little of that. I'm talking about using kicks as the atemi, and, for what it is worth, we were training them this morning. People who don't train aikido certainly have the wrong impression of what we actually do. :asian:

 

[Kframe]

My boxing coach taught us the 90 degree angle hook. To shallow and it has less power, to wide and you have less power(lol) and risk injury to your self. Im surprised that this discussion of hooks did not turn into a argument over palms facing vs palms down. Im a palms facing hooker.

I have tried the Palm hook, and abandon the idea. I just could not find a good orientation for my hand that did not leave my fingers in the way or some how exposed to dangers. I may revist the idea again.

 

[Prostar]

Many years ago I found myself standing in a narrow entryway to a skating rink (not during a session). A guy got this strange look on his face and started to ask me, "What would you do if". At that point he found himself pinned to a wall with a side kick. The point is that I had taught myself to kick effectively where other people only punch. That four foot hallway was plenty of room.

All too often we establish kicks as long range and hands as close in tools. My instructor was a Golden Gloves boxer and an All Marines boxer before he started martial arts. I HAD to learn to defend myself in close with techniques no one expects.

There was lots of good advice in this thread but I just thought I'd toss in a bit of a change-up.

 

[Cyriacus]

Many years ago I found myself standing in a narrow entryway to a skating rink (not during a session). A guy got this strange look on his face and started to ask me, "What would you do if". At that point he found himself pinned to a wall with a side kick. The point is that I had taught myself to kick effectively where other people only punch. That four foot hallway was plenty of room.

All too often we establish kicks as long range and hands as close in tools. My instructor was a Golden Gloves boxer and an All Marines boxer before he started martial arts. I HAD to learn to defend myself in close with techniques no one expects.

There was lots of good advice in this thread but I just thought I'd toss in a bit of a change-up.

Well of course - Now i have some questions, just to lend some context.
1; Why did you choose a side kick?
2; Just how far away were you?
3; Are you aware of the difference between a fight and an assault?
4; I dont consider kicks long range tools, i consider them medium to long range tools, or close if you go low. How far away were you?
5; How do you know he wasnt going to ask if you were going to win the lottery, or insert skating related question here, and did you feel physically threatened to sufficiently warrant a pre-emptive strike?

Edit: I know that 2 and 4 sound like the same question. 2 is your distance, 4 was more a discussion point about medium range kicking, but it didnt make sense if i didnt actually put a question in my question.

 

[Prostar]

Well of course - Now i have some questions, just to lend some context.
1; Why did you choose a side kick?
2; Just how far away were you?
3; Are you aware of the difference between a fight and an assault?
4; I dont consider kicks long range tools, i consider them medium to long range tools, or close if you go low. How far away were you?
5; How do you know he wasnt going to ask if you were going to win the lottery, or insert skating related question here, and did you feel physically threatened to sufficiently warrant a pre-emptive strike?

Edit: I know that 2 and 4 sound like the same question. 2 is your distance, 4 was more a discussion point about medium range kicking, but it didnt make sense if i didnt actually put a question in my question.

Good questions.
1. It made an indelible point.
2. Two people in a four foot hallway. Kind of like being in the proverbial phone booth. A couple of feet.
3. Absolutely. Been there.
4. This was way too close to be considered medium range.
5. There is another thread that asks the question of how to deal with people who ask what would you if I...He had just mentioned martial arts so I saw it coming. It was just that throwing a kick like that in such close quarters ended all such discussion quickly. His response was, "Oh".

My overall point was that, in such a situation, people generally expect something from the hands. Being able to kick when others only punch just adds to the arsenal.

 

[Cyriacus]

Good questions.
1. It made an indelible point.
2. Two people in a four foot hallway. Kind of like being in the proverbial phone booth. A couple of feet.
3. Absolutely. Been there.
4. This was way too close to be considered medium range.
5. There is another thread that asks the question of how to deal with people who ask what would you if I...He had just mentioned martial arts so I saw it coming. It was just that throwing a kick like that in such close quarters ended all such discussion quickly. His response was, "Oh".

My overall point was that, in such a situation, people generally expect something from the hands. Being able to kick when others only punch just adds to the arsenal.

Well, ill comment that most fights ive seen and what few ive been in start with a grapple, but aside from that, fair enough

 

[Cyriacus]

Cool. I'll break them up again.

Then let's clarify what I meant... with a solid fist, unless you're hitting something soft, or that moves, there's a damn good chance of breaking your hand. With a palm, it's virtually impossible. Boxers break their hands, even with wrapping and gloves. An open palm just doesn't have that problem. Hell, Mike Tyson broke his hand in a street altercation. Why? Because he hit someone in the head with his fist.

Still kinda beside the point.... if you like headlocks, then you'd have that as your primary aim, not as a fallback to a missed strike.

With a palm hook, as you noted earlier, the range can be adjusted by altering the orientation of the hand (fingers away for longer range, fingers upright for mid, and fingers pointing back for close range) without affecting the structure of the arm. In fact, my most dominant strike is a palm hook, as it's the most reliable, most high-return, most versatile, safest, easiest, most powerful, fastest strike available to me. And believe me, my guys know just what that strike can do...

Alrighty, back to this.

Speed wise and power wise, i dont see any difference. However, i find it works on a bit of a tighter arc. At least according to the person i was with, it wasnt quite as easy to stop from hitting you. I didnt notice all that much (from a receivers viewpoint), however i can see how that might happen.

Range (ala hand position) isnt as much of a factor as i took it for, since bending the elbow to shorten your reach as needed realigns your fingers all on its own anyway, so i was wrong about that. In my head, against air, and against a post, it came out like seperate movements. With a more ball shaped mark (head) the adjustment was purely in the elbow, same as a hook punch.

I stand by the chance of hitting with the bottom of the metacarpals, albeit thats like saying you can hit with your fingers off a punch. That doesnt exactly change anything, though the knuckles do protrude more consistently than the heel of the palm.

The main thing im going to bring up is that with some contact, hook punches tend to rotate the head. With the palm hooks i was fiddling with, presumably due to the shape of the hand, hitting anything other than the jaw seems to move the entire head and neck sideways, which presented some interesting continuations, and to me didnt quite feel as nice to receive (which i assume is either due to not being used to it, or from your neck not liking it).



So, my prior judgement was harsh. Consider my standpoint revised, to not judge things based on old information.

 

[Aiki Lee]

So, I agree with pretty much everything Chris has said but will say that kicking does have a role in self defense training. However, the only really training you'd need is to practice crushing cans with a stomp as that would be the most effective way to kick someone who is actively attacking you. With training I could certainly see one being able to use kicking methods effectively but in a limited setting, so I'd agree with Dirty Dog there.

 

[Chris Parker]

Punching - being a bit off topic I would suggest that the main reason, besides being able to punch very hard, boxers break their hands punching to the head is because the gloves they are so used to wearing do not allow them to clench their fists fully and the hand/wrist wraps take away much of the reliance on wrist strength on correct wrist alignment. If you punch someone in the forehead then you are likely to break your hand, punching to the jaw is less risky and conditioning the fist can reduce the risks considerably. Palm strikes have their own dangers such as spraining or breaking your wrist if you get the angle wrong even when hitting something soft.

I'm less convinced of the "can't close their hands properly" reasoning... but I'll come to that in a moment. I would agree with the idea of punching the head being a major cause, though... in very simple terms, it's big (thick, hard) bones (forehead) versus little bones... big bones win. The only viable targets for a closed fist on the head I'd aim for are the jaw (which moves) and the nose (which moves... when it breaks). Spraining happens if the wrist is taken past it's flexibility point... so that's more an indication that the point of impact is closer to the fingers than the base of the palm, rather than being a flaw of the palm strike itself. Breaking your wrist is more about a poor alignment (which is why wrists get broken in falls).

Not so, Chris. Palm strikes result in fractures, most commonly to the navicula and ulna, especially ulnar stylet fractures. I can't say what the relative odds of a fracture are, primarily because of a lack of studies. But these are not at all uncommon injuries.

Are those injuries from palm strikes, though? Fractured/broken wrists, from the discussions I've had with various doctors/surgeons/nurses, are more often from falls than anything else... the hands reach out to stop the fall, extending the wrist, which puts all of the force into it, not allowing any support (or cushioning of the impact), which is what breaks it. A palm strike, if done properly, allows for the impact to travel down the length of the forearm, cushioning and reducing the strain on the wrist a fair bit, and reducing the chance of injury, particularly breaks or fracturing.

The gloves worn by boxers prevent closing the hand, and reduce (nearly eliminate?) the need for proper hand/wrist/forearm alignment. When a boxer punches something without a glove, this would lead to injuries. Considering that the classic "boxers fracture" is a fracture of the 4th of 5th metacarpal and that this fracture is virtually always the result of improper alignment during the strike, I think there is little to debate.
And of course, boxers don't generally (so far as I know) condition the hands in the way most of us do.

See, now, this I disagree with. Boxers don't always use gloves... a lot of the time, bag work might be done with just wraps, as is shadow boxing (a way of working on form, as well as other aspects). And, in that instance, proper alignment is absolutely needed, and drilled. Additionally, proper wrist alignment is needed when wearing gloves as well... I'd even suggest it becomes more important there, as the added weight and bulk of the gloves don't help with the force being transferred into the wrist.... and it's that force that would injure the wrist. Realistically, the wrist is just as susceptible to injury in a punch as a palm strike, as the force being transferred into it is pretty well equal. And that's not where the punching breaks happen. I'd also seriously question the idea that boxers don't condition their hands to strike... it's one of the main reasons for bag work!

When it comes to the classic "boxer's fracture", it is a break of, as you said, the fourth or fifth metacarpal (the ring and little fingers, respectively). The improper alignment there isn't really about the wrist, it's that you hit "late", and the force is applied to the later part of your hand (leading with the index or middle finger knuckles). It is more common to break your hand that way by slightly missing with the lead knuckles, and "clipping" (with some force!) the latter knuckles. The facts that these metacarpals aren't as supported, are thinner, and don't allow the force to continue to travel down the forearm, all combine to result in a broken hand. And, really, the most common cause is striking something hard (such as the head/skull) with those later knuckles.

My boxing coach taught us the 90 degree angle hook. To shallow and it has less power, to wide and you have less power(lol) and risk injury to your self. Im surprised that this discussion of hooks did not turn into a argument over palms facing vs palms down. Im a palms facing hooker.

I have tried the Palm hook, and abandon the idea. I just could not find a good orientation for my hand that did not leave my fingers in the way or some how exposed to dangers. I may revist the idea again.

I'll give you some of my approaches for your palm hook. Firstly, the impact is always done with the bottom of your palm, where it is supported by your wrist and forearm (directly). When it comes to positioning of the fingers, if the opponent is slightly further away, then I point them forwards... if at a "middle" range, they point up... and, if close in, they point back towards myself. The vast majority of the time, it's the first one (pointed away). My most common target, also, is the jaw line... as it's a very good chance for a knockout. My personal targeting is to strike by positioning the opponents ear between my thumb and forefinger... this means my palm impacts about halfway along the jawline. Using a direct angle straight in (90 degrees to the jaw), it is an incredibly powerful strike... as well as being a large target, making it very simple to use in a "gross motor" fashion, making it usable in an adrenalized state (as a fight/self defence situation is). There's a lot more to it than this, such as the way we utilize bodyweight in our striking methods, and other reasons to prefer that particular targeting, but that's enough of a clue for now, I feel...

Alrighty, back to this.

Speed wise and power wise, i dont see any difference. However, i find it works on a bit of a tighter arc. At least according to the person i was with, it wasnt quite as easy to stop from hitting you. I didnt notice all that much (from a receivers viewpoint), however i can see how that might happen.

Speed wise, against a punch, well, it's basically the same action, so yeah, they're the same. Power wise, the difference is primarily psychological... due to the reduced risk of injuring yourself, it's common to put more behind a palm strike than a punch. To test that, go up to a brick wall, and punch it as hard as you dare... then strike with your palm as hard as you dare. I guarantee that you'll let yourself hit a lot harder with the palm... As far as the angle, again, they can be identical... but I find the palm can be slightly tighter, due to the larger impact point. The focus of the fist means that you need to get the angle that much more correct, so your approach is a little more limited.

Range (ala hand position) isnt as much of a factor as i took it for, since bending the elbow to shorten your reach as needed realigns your fingers all on its own anyway, so i was wrong about that. In my head, against air, and against a post, it came out like seperate movements. With a more ball shaped mark (head) the adjustment was purely in the elbow, same as a hook punch.

You're better off rotating your hand, rather than bending the elbow away from 90 degrees... you're sacrificing power, as well as alignment, for convenience.

I stand by the chance of hitting with the bottom of the metacarpals, albeit thats like saying you can hit with your fingers off a punch. That doesnt exactly change anything, though the knuckles do protrude more consistently than the heel of the palm.

You want to hit with the base of the palm, not the center of it. That's where the support is, that's where the stability is, that's where the transfer of power is... further up (towards the fingers) is less stable, less powerful, less safe.

The main thing im going to bring up is that with some contact, hook punches tend to rotate the head. With the palm hooks i was fiddling with, presumably due to the shape of the hand, hitting anything other than the jaw seems to move the entire head and neck sideways, which presented some interesting continuations, and to me didnt quite feel as nice to receive (which i assume is either due to not being used to it, or from your neck not liking it).

Hit towards, not across... makes a world of difference.

So, my prior judgement was harsh. Consider my standpoint revised, to not judge things based on old information.

Cool.

So, I agree with pretty much everything Chris has said but will say that kicking does have a role in self defense training. However, the only really training you'd need is to practice crushing cans with a stomp as that would be the most effective way to kick someone who is actively attacking you. With training I could certainly see one being able to use kicking methods effectively but in a limited setting, so I'd agree with Dirty Dog there.

For practicing such stomps, make sure you exaggerate the action as much as you can....

 

[Cyriacus]

Speed wise, against a punch, well, it's basically the same action, so yeah, they're the same. Power wise, the difference is primarily psychological... due to the reduced risk of injuring yourself, it's common to put more behind a palm strike than a punch. To test that, go up to a brick wall, and punch it as hard as you dare... then strike with your palm as hard as you dare. I guarantee that you'll let yourself hit a lot harder with the palm... As far as the angle, again, they can be identical... but I find the palm can be slightly tighter, due to the larger impact point. The focus of the fist means that you need to get the angle that much more correct, so your approach is a little more limited.

Fair enough.

You're better off rotating your hand, rather than bending the elbow away from 90 degrees... you're sacrificing power, as well as alignment, for convenience.

Of course your hand rotates - I didnt mean to imply that i was changing the rotation of the elbow in terms of how bent it is, or what angle its at. I meant that as a correction to my previous presumption. By rotating your arm, as in... when your hand turns, your arm turns to facilitate its turning. This is a failure of my vocabulary.

You want to hit with the base of the palm, not the center of it. That's where the support is, that's where the stability is, that's where the transfer of power is... further up (towards the fingers) is less stable, less powerful, less safe.

I know that - You also want to hit with your knuckles, and not your fingers. That was what i was getting at. Your knuckles stick out from your fingers, but how far your palm sticks out from the flat of your hand may vary.

Hit towards, not across... makes a world of difference.

So were clear, are you referring more to a straight-but-across-your-body sort of motion, less so than a swinging/hooking motion? If so, i know that by a different name, and quite like it.

Cool.

 

[Chris Parker]

Of course your hand rotates - I didnt mean to imply that i was changing the rotation of the elbow in terms of how bent it is, or what angle its at. I meant that as a correction to my previous presumption. By rotating your arm, as in... when your hand turns, your arm turns to facilitate its turning. This is a failure of my vocabulary.

Cool.

I know that - You also want to hit with your knuckles, and not your fingers. That was what i was getting at. Your knuckles stick out from your fingers, but how far your palm sticks out from the flat of your hand may vary.

Ah, but which knuckles...?

So were clear, are you referring more to a straight-but-across-your-body sort of motion, less so than a swinging/hooking motion? If so, i know that by a different name, and quite like it.

Yeah, that's as good a way to put it as any. The important thing is the angle of impact, and the angle of penetration, rather than the angle of approach.

 

[Cyriacus]

Ah, but which knuckles...?

The ones that come before your fingers start. On second thought, ive known some people whos second row of knuckles stick out quite a ways.

Yeah, that's as good a way to put it as any. The important thing is the angle of impact, and the angle of penetration, rather than the angle of approach.

I learned them under a different name. If thats what youve been talking about this whole time, and id known that, wed have been in agreement from the get-go.

 

[Kframe]

Thanks Chris parker for the "clue". Ill try those hand positions during my practice. When it comes to body mechanics about the hook, I have my preferred method of body mechanics I use. Mostly I don't use my arm to put in any force, I use my rotating body to provide the force.

 

[Chris Parker]

The ones that come before your fingers start. On second thought, ive known some people whos second row of knuckles stick out quite a ways.

Ha, no, the first knuckles of which fingers? The index and middle, or the middle, ring, and little.... or the ring and little only. Different systems have different preferences, for their own reasons

I learned them under a different name. If thats what youve been talking about this whole time, and id known that, wed have been in agreement from the get-go.

Well, it's part of it, but not what I've been talking about mainly. It's really just one aspect (albeit an essential one, to my approach) of using a palm strike in a "hook".

Thanks Chris parker for the "clue". Ill try those hand positions during my practice. When it comes to body mechanics about the hook, I have my preferred method of body mechanics I use. Mostly I don't use my arm to put in any force, I use my rotating body to provide the force.

Yeah, each art will have it's own ideas on body mechanics... the better you understand the ones for your art, the better you can apply things like palm strikes easily and powerfully... and kicks, for that matter (hey, back to the topic! What d'ya know?).

 

[Cyriacus]

Ha, no, the first knuckles of which fingers? The index and middle, or the middle, ring, and little.... or the ring and little only. Different systems have different preferences, for their own reasons



Well, it's part of it, but not what I've been talking about mainly. It's really just one aspect (albeit an essential one, to my approach) of using a palm strike in a "hook".

To the first part, well, all of mine stick out slightly further than my fingers do. As far as which are being used to hit stuff, first two for anything that isnt the head. For the head, aim with the middle knuckles and whichever ones hit, do. In the system im learning, of course.

To the second part, *nods*

 

[Chris Parker]

Hmm... so the advice is to hit to softer targets (not the head) with the most structurally sound, largest, and strongest (most resistive to being broken) knuckles, but when hitting to the head, to move down to the most commonly broken in a "boxer's fracture", which happens when they hit someone in the head with that knuckle? Interesting.

 

[Cyriacus]

Hmm... so the advice is to hit to softer targets (not the head) with the most structurally sound, largest, and strongest (most resistive to being broken) knuckles, but when hitting to the head, to move down to the most commonly broken in a "boxer's fracture", which happens when they hit someone in the head with that knuckle? Interesting.

I have no intention of defending that fact, because i agree.

 

[Chris Parker]

Ha, cool. I didn't want to get into a "your style versus..." thing, I was just intrigued, and wondering if there was a reason (that you'd been given).

 

[Dirty Dog]

Are those injuries from palm strikes, though?

I've never seen a study that included information on falls vs strikes. I've personally encountered both, with more being from falls, simply because falls are more common than palm strikes against solid targets.

Fractured/broken wrists, from the discussions I've had with various doctors/surgeons/nurses, are more often from falls than anything else... the hands reach out to stop the fall, extending the wrist, which puts all of the force into it, not allowing any support (or cushioning of the impact), which is what breaks it.

More people punch than do palm strikes. More people fall than do palm strikes. I was mostly responding to your statement that it was 'virtually impossible' to break yourself with a palm strike. It's not.

A palm strike, if done properly, allows for the impact to travel down the length of the forearm, cushioning and reducing the strain on the wrist a fair bit, and reducing the chance of injury, particularly breaks or fracturing.

Well duh.... Replace "palm strike" with "punch" and the statement is equally true.

See, now, this I disagree with. Boxers don't always use gloves... a lot of the time, bag work might be done with just wraps, as is shadow boxing (a way of working on form, as well as other aspects). And, in that instance, proper alignment is absolutely needed, and drilled. Additionally, proper wrist alignment is needed when wearing gloves as well... I'd even suggest it becomes more important there, as the added weight and bulk of the gloves don't help with the force being transferred into the wrist.... and it's that force that would injure the wrist. Realistically, the wrist is just as susceptible to injury in a punch as a palm strike, as the force being transferred into it is pretty well equal. And that's not where the punching breaks happen. I'd also seriously question the idea that boxers don't condition their hands to strike... it's one of the main reasons for bag work!

Boxers (as a general rule - I am certain there will be some rare exceptions) do not train to punch without protection and support from gloves/wraps/tape/bags that are somewhat more forgiving than a skull.

 

[Chris Parker]

I've never seen a study that included information on falls vs strikes. I've personally encountered both, with more being from falls, simply because falls are more common than palm strikes against solid targets.

I wouldn't expect to see one, really. The interest would be rather niche, to say the least! That said, I do contend that there are structural reasons for breaks occurring from falls more than palm strikes, as well as the higher likelihood of falling than striking on a day-to-day basis.

More people punch than do palm strikes. More people fall than do palm strikes. I was mostly responding to your statement that it was 'virtually impossible' to break yourself with a palm strike. It's not.

By comparison with a punch, I'd still stand by my statement. My position was assuming that both were done "correctly"... in which case, there is still a good chance of breaking your hand with a punch (to something like a skull), but not really with a palm strike. For the palm strike to break your hand/wrist, you need to have screwed it up... with a punch, you just need to have hit something very hard.

Well duh.... Replace "palm strike" with "punch" and the statement is equally true.

No, not quite. Many broken hands in boxing (or any other combat sport, really... I've seen it in everything from MMA, to boxing, to WWE, to non-contact TKD tournaments...), and the breaks don't happen because the punch is incorrect... it's because it hits a hard target. Most commonly, the skull.

Boxers (as a general rule - I am certain there will be some rare exceptions) do not train to punch without protection and support from gloves/wraps/tape/bags that are somewhat more forgiving than a skull.

Yes, the objects they hit are more forgiving than a skull... and I can't blame them for that at all! After all, hitting a skull (or similar... another common cause is hitting a wall...) can break your hand! But the thing to remember is that the wraps provide support for the wrist, but don't stop the boxer from making a proper fist... and don't stop a boxer's fracture from happening.