Do you teach it, is it within your kata? What are your feelings on it?
Kiai (spirit yell)
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Do you teach it, is it within your kata? What are your feelings on it?
Yes to both.
A kiai is another way to force students to breath. So many times during basics, self defense and kata, you see people holding their breath. This isn't good for a number of reasons.
Usually during sd, the final strike, a kiai is done. During kata, not every move has to have one, but there should be some in certain areas, through out the kata.
Jimi
Black Belt
Many of the forms/kata that I learned had the Kiai yell as an accent to a finishing strike. When I used to teach at a commercial TKD school, the previous head instructor allowed the students to yell I-Ya as their (LOL) battler cry, mostly because kids had heard it on Power Rangers and were already yelling it during introductory lessons. The issue myself and a Korean friend was that I-Ya in korean means "OUCH!" LOL. So we were critical of the school allowing this as an exceptable KIAI. The Korean families reviewing the school for consideration would giggle and leave with-out really allowing the manager to speak with them. KIAI, yes! I-Ya, not! Can you imagaine the scene from Enter The Dragon where the courtyards are full of people in white uniforms puching & kicking yelling Ouch! Ouch! Ouch! In tournament sparring division in the late 70's & early 80's a good KIAI could convince a corner judge that your strike landed & you could con your way into a point. Now some competitiors are yelling on every shot. LOL. A good KIAI is great for a well done Traditional Form. JMHO. PEACE
I totally agree with you. We usually kiai for a change in direction in our katas.
In SD, a kiai is done on the first and last blow if you can't kiai all the way thru the technique. But a kiai has to be done right also. It should come from your stomach, your center, and not your throat. When done this way it's not just a noise maker, but adds power to your strikes as well as tighten up muscles, especially your stomach.
I was also told that it will hide the sound of broken bones in a fight!!! Ha ha
We add it to certain moves in kata, self defense, sparring, and also in demo forms. helps to breath, take a hard shot, startle an opponent, and get judges attention in a competition.
It is within the kata in both of my styles. But to be perfectly honest, it is not "taught." We are told to do it, we are told some basics about it, but there isn't much depth on the reason, placement within kata, or how to actually execute it.
For example, in Korea, it is pronounce "ki-hap" or "ki-ahp" (actually two different words) and in Korean, it actually means "yell" or "shout." And I find the same thing as Jimi....I know A LOT of people who actually shout the word "ki-ahp." So they are just shouting the word "shout" very loudly. Granted, the sound that you make isnt' as important as how and why you make it....but that's just silly!
Especially in a style such as Soo Bahk Do, where audible breathing is encouraged, I find that it has less of a purpose, other than being another thing to remember in a form!
For example, in Korea, it is pronounce "ki-hap" or "ki-ahp" (actually two different words) and in Korean, it actually means "yell" or "shout." And I find the same thing as Jimi....I know A LOT of people who actually shout the word "ki-ahp." So they are just shouting the word "shout" very loudly. Granted, the sound that you make isnt' as important as how and why you make it....but that's just silly!
Especially in a style such as Soo Bahk Do, where audible breathing is encouraged, I find that it has less of a purpose, other than being another thing to remember in a form!
Nomad
Master Black Belt
A kiai is a "spirit shout"
It has several purposes (some of which have already been covered).
1). Forces you to breath on the technique. As said above, a kiai should come from the diaphram (tanden, hara), not the throat.
2). Tightens core, lets you get better transfer of energy from lower body to upper, helps focus kime (everything ending at the same time). Tends to make techniques stronger, especially in beginners... more experienced martial artists often do a "silent kiai" that has similar effects on their power and mechanics
3). Can scare your opponent. If done correctly, a kiai can be a very effective freezing technique, causing someone to hesitate just long enough to get in the next strike/move.
4). In a dojo setting, kiai shows your spirit and confidence in the technique. It's always interesting to see when something "new" is being done how almost none of the students kiai (they're too busy trying to think their way through the technique).
5). In competition, it's a very good way to get attention and let the judges know that you're a competitor to be taken seriously. I always tell students that their kiai should be able to turn heads at the other end of a crowded gym.
A weak kiai betrays nervousness, lack of self-confidence, concern over how others are viewing you, etc. These traits will generally be apparent in the rest of the kata or technique too, but are really made evident by a weak kiai.
It has several purposes (some of which have already been covered).
1). Forces you to breath on the technique. As said above, a kiai should come from the diaphram (tanden, hara), not the throat.
2). Tightens core, lets you get better transfer of energy from lower body to upper, helps focus kime (everything ending at the same time). Tends to make techniques stronger, especially in beginners... more experienced martial artists often do a "silent kiai" that has similar effects on their power and mechanics
3). Can scare your opponent. If done correctly, a kiai can be a very effective freezing technique, causing someone to hesitate just long enough to get in the next strike/move.
4). In a dojo setting, kiai shows your spirit and confidence in the technique. It's always interesting to see when something "new" is being done how almost none of the students kiai (they're too busy trying to think their way through the technique).
5). In competition, it's a very good way to get attention and let the judges know that you're a competitor to be taken seriously. I always tell students that their kiai should be able to turn heads at the other end of a crowded gym.
A weak kiai betrays nervousness, lack of self-confidence, concern over how others are viewing you, etc. These traits will generally be apparent in the rest of the kata or technique too, but are really made evident by a weak kiai.
OP
OP
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We also used a Kiai to add power to board breaking. It was a good way to focus the mind.
OP
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I also had it happen, where I would tell students to give a strong Kiai, and then have them do the same exact word while sparring. As far as it being taught, I remember my Sensei teaching us to use it to dispel fear. There were times, where I was faced with an opponent from another DoJo, that I didnt know, and I was a little apprehensive. One strong Kiai did the trick, my fear was gone, and I could see my fear in his eyes. J
Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
Kiai have many uses and applications. There are different kinds of kiai as well. Different sounds and levels of projection have different effects on the bodies of both the one yelling and who the yell is directed at.
For example, a "ha!" sound in a kiai makes one feel strong and agressive and startles the opponent. An "EE!" kiai makes one feel elusive and at high pitches can even freeze a person in their tracks for a split second.
For example, a "ha!" sound in a kiai makes one feel strong and agressive and startles the opponent. An "EE!" kiai makes one feel elusive and at high pitches can even freeze a person in their tracks for a split second.
girlbug2
Master of Arts
In EPAK we used Kiai in the same manner described by MJS. We were encouraged to make a sound, but we didn't necessarily have to literally say "kiai", it could be whatever sound naturally came out, and students tended to develop their individual signature "kiai"s: I heard "Ki", "KyiH", "jyih", "Hah", "Tah"and other variations. Mine sounded like "Hi".
Now in Krav, we are trained to let our breath out for strikes but most of the students tend to make more of a quiet hissing sound. My own Kiai has quieted down somewhat, but when I am doing a hard finishing strike it comes out from deep in the gut and is more of a "huh" noise.
Listening to Bruce Lee do his Kiai's, I wonder at the many variations in there, --Himura, would that be an example of what you were talking about?
Now in Krav, we are trained to let our breath out for strikes but most of the students tend to make more of a quiet hissing sound. My own Kiai has quieted down somewhat, but when I am doing a hard finishing strike it comes out from deep in the gut and is more of a "huh" noise.
Listening to Bruce Lee do his Kiai's, I wonder at the many variations in there, --Himura, would that be an example of what you were talking about?
Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
I think bruce lee's ,maniacal screaming was done mostly for dramatic effect as is likely an exaggeration of the sounds he would have used in a real fight.
I find the following sounds have this effect on me when I use them
"ah"or "ai" sounds like "ah! Tah! Tai! or Ha!" emit a firey energy that one would likely use if he felt agressive. It can help put you into a more agressive sate of mind if you need it. For example if someone was holding a loved one by the throat and you stumbled upon it you would probably emit a sound like "HAAAA!" as you smash them in the ribs with whatever powerful attack you stike them with.
"oh" sounds make me feel more defensive. I've witnessed my instructors saying "oh!" or "Toh" when the recieve an attack. It seems to shock your body into an "alert" status that lets one react a little faster when he is on the wrong end of the sword.
"ee" sounds seem to be good for me when my body needs to be more elusive. Instead of recieving an attack this sound makes me want to avoid it.
I've found that in the opponent, when they are on the reciving end of a good kiai they tend to jump back when they here "ah" sounds. Pause slightly when they hear "oH" sounds and flinch and lock up when they hear a high pitched "ee" sound.
Try it out! It's fun to experiment with good attackers!
I find the following sounds have this effect on me when I use them
"ah"or "ai" sounds like "ah! Tah! Tai! or Ha!" emit a firey energy that one would likely use if he felt agressive. It can help put you into a more agressive sate of mind if you need it. For example if someone was holding a loved one by the throat and you stumbled upon it you would probably emit a sound like "HAAAA!" as you smash them in the ribs with whatever powerful attack you stike them with.
"oh" sounds make me feel more defensive. I've witnessed my instructors saying "oh!" or "Toh" when the recieve an attack. It seems to shock your body into an "alert" status that lets one react a little faster when he is on the wrong end of the sword.
"ee" sounds seem to be good for me when my body needs to be more elusive. Instead of recieving an attack this sound makes me want to avoid it.
I've found that in the opponent, when they are on the reciving end of a good kiai they tend to jump back when they here "ah" sounds. Pause slightly when they hear "oH" sounds and flinch and lock up when they hear a high pitched "ee" sound.
Try it out! It's fun to experiment with good attackers!
Deaf Smith
Master of Arts
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Guys,
Your in your car and it goes into a skid.. do you yell as you try to correct? (ok, maybe you do as you are about to hit that 18 wheeler.)
When you pick up heavy furniture, do you yell as you lift?
When you hammer a nail, do you yell?
Yell as you chop wood?
Yell as you life weights in the gym?
Ok, do you hear boxers yell when they fight?
Do Muay Thai fighters yell when the hit?
Did Chuck Norris and Joe Louis yell when they fought in tournaments?
Ok, so you get the point, right? I've never yelled in a fight and while I'll yell to please the instructor, I don't put all that much stock in it.
Deaf
Your in your car and it goes into a skid.. do you yell as you try to correct? (ok, maybe you do as you are about to hit that 18 wheeler.)
When you pick up heavy furniture, do you yell as you lift?
When you hammer a nail, do you yell?
Yell as you chop wood?
Yell as you life weights in the gym?
Ok, do you hear boxers yell when they fight?
Do Muay Thai fighters yell when the hit?
Did Chuck Norris and Joe Louis yell when they fought in tournaments?
Ok, so you get the point, right? I've never yelled in a fight and while I'll yell to please the instructor, I don't put all that much stock in it.
Deaf
dancingalone
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I suspect the answer whether you find kiai effective depends on the type of training you do. I agree it's largely useless in something like sport karate. It can be greatly helpful if you practice it as a form of qigong or as in hung gar to move energy from organ to body part.
At our school we were taught to breathe with our movements instead of a traditional kiai. We still emphasized the importance of coordinating breath and body, but felt that the kiai as often seen in martial arts is an artificial conceit.
I'm not trying to be derogatory. I understand that it works for some people, and I think that's great. I'm just telling you what I was taught.
But what I learned was not exactly the same as what I was taught. What I learned is that in battle, when overwhelmed with aggression, I make sounds. Growls, snarls, barks, hissing, monosyllabic grunts, they all come out in the heat of the moment.
It isn't a conscious decision, and it isn't a traditional kiai, it is a guttural instinctual assault upon my opponent. It is me attacking my opponent with my breath and my voice as much as with my hands and my feet. It is a coordination of breath and body. Of intent and action.
To me, that is a true spirit shout. It is not the manufactured screaming I see in televised kata tournaments, where practitioners yell for effect and often their shouts have no relation to their actions. It is an expression of aggression which comes from deep within the fighter and assaults his opponent.
A kiai to me need not be discernible, or even audible. It is an expression. A communication.
A weapon.
-Rob
I'm not trying to be derogatory. I understand that it works for some people, and I think that's great. I'm just telling you what I was taught.
But what I learned was not exactly the same as what I was taught. What I learned is that in battle, when overwhelmed with aggression, I make sounds. Growls, snarls, barks, hissing, monosyllabic grunts, they all come out in the heat of the moment.
It isn't a conscious decision, and it isn't a traditional kiai, it is a guttural instinctual assault upon my opponent. It is me attacking my opponent with my breath and my voice as much as with my hands and my feet. It is a coordination of breath and body. Of intent and action.
To me, that is a true spirit shout. It is not the manufactured screaming I see in televised kata tournaments, where practitioners yell for effect and often their shouts have no relation to their actions. It is an expression of aggression which comes from deep within the fighter and assaults his opponent.
A kiai to me need not be discernible, or even audible. It is an expression. A communication.
A weapon.
-Rob
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hi,
Kiai can be a large or small part of the training, depending on your instructor, and system. In our schools, for instance, we sometimes get into the more indepth approach to the concept, so I'll give a little overview from our point of view here.
Kiai is often translated as "Spirit(ed) Shout", but the literal translation of the characters is "Energy" (ki) "Harmony" (ai). These are the same characters as in aiki(do or jutsu), just in the opposite order, so the idea is kind of the opposite from aikido. In aikido, as I understand it, the characters read "Harmony Energy", giving the inference of harmonizing with the energy of the situation, the attack, the opponent, or some other such concept. Kiai, on the other hand, reads "Energy Harmony", and that gives the idea of harmonizing your energy (or intention) together with your actions to create an effect on the outside environment, be it a person, situation, or something else entirely.
This kiai is more a concept of directed intention, rather than just a noise made for show. Of course, it is a very good way, as mentioned, to develop proper habits in breathing when striking as well, and to that end, there are a number of different physical (verbalised) kiai taught. In general terms, there are two main types of kiai, offensive (ending in a vowel - Yah, Doh, Ei etc), and defensive (ending in a constanent - Hut, Hup, Ei-Yush etc). The offensive kiai end in a vowel, as that allows the breath to leave the body, allowing the transferance of energy freely without the inhibition that comes form tensed muscles. The defensive kiai do the opposite, ending in a constanent specifically to hold the breath in and strengthen (re-inforce) the body to aid blocking and recieving manouvres. For the record, though, kiai can be used in a number of other ways, such as fakes, but I'm not adressing that here.
Specific traditional schools sometimes have associated kiai specific to them; for instance, Gyokko Ryu has Yah, and Doh (with the breath held in for defensive use), Takagi Yoshin Ryu has Ei and Ei-Yush, but it's not really focused on. We tend more to explore the concepts and allow students to express their spirit as they feel it... although this usually is an offer taken by the more experienced.
One last thing on kiai: the physical (verbal) aspect is just one expression. There are also silent kiai, and what are known as "shadow kiai". The important thing is your reason (intention) behind the kiai. But when verbalising, make sure the sound is generated from your diaphragm, not your throat. If you have a sore throat afterwards, look to how you're doing it.
Kiai can be a large or small part of the training, depending on your instructor, and system. In our schools, for instance, we sometimes get into the more indepth approach to the concept, so I'll give a little overview from our point of view here.
Kiai is often translated as "Spirit(ed) Shout", but the literal translation of the characters is "Energy" (ki) "Harmony" (ai). These are the same characters as in aiki(do or jutsu), just in the opposite order, so the idea is kind of the opposite from aikido. In aikido, as I understand it, the characters read "Harmony Energy", giving the inference of harmonizing with the energy of the situation, the attack, the opponent, or some other such concept. Kiai, on the other hand, reads "Energy Harmony", and that gives the idea of harmonizing your energy (or intention) together with your actions to create an effect on the outside environment, be it a person, situation, or something else entirely.
This kiai is more a concept of directed intention, rather than just a noise made for show. Of course, it is a very good way, as mentioned, to develop proper habits in breathing when striking as well, and to that end, there are a number of different physical (verbalised) kiai taught. In general terms, there are two main types of kiai, offensive (ending in a vowel - Yah, Doh, Ei etc), and defensive (ending in a constanent - Hut, Hup, Ei-Yush etc). The offensive kiai end in a vowel, as that allows the breath to leave the body, allowing the transferance of energy freely without the inhibition that comes form tensed muscles. The defensive kiai do the opposite, ending in a constanent specifically to hold the breath in and strengthen (re-inforce) the body to aid blocking and recieving manouvres. For the record, though, kiai can be used in a number of other ways, such as fakes, but I'm not adressing that here.
Specific traditional schools sometimes have associated kiai specific to them; for instance, Gyokko Ryu has Yah, and Doh (with the breath held in for defensive use), Takagi Yoshin Ryu has Ei and Ei-Yush, but it's not really focused on. We tend more to explore the concepts and allow students to express their spirit as they feel it... although this usually is an offer taken by the more experienced.
One last thing on kiai: the physical (verbal) aspect is just one expression. There are also silent kiai, and what are known as "shadow kiai". The important thing is your reason (intention) behind the kiai. But when verbalising, make sure the sound is generated from your diaphragm, not your throat. If you have a sore throat afterwards, look to how you're doing it.
I am going to skip reading all of the posts before I post this so I may be repeating what others have said.
Yes it is taught in some of the forms I teach and learned. Yes it has meaning and a place in forms and in actual sparring/fighting.
Now what I do not agree with is hearing the same sound with every yell. If the breathing is done correctly the sound will vary depending on where the strike is. It will also sound different if the yell is done as a defensive measure.
What I abhor is watching ISKA and seeing people scream for no other reason than to scream
Yes it is taught in some of the forms I teach and learned. Yes it has meaning and a place in forms and in actual sparring/fighting.
Now what I do not agree with is hearing the same sound with every yell. If the breathing is done correctly the sound will vary depending on where the strike is. It will also sound different if the yell is done as a defensive measure.
What I abhor is watching ISKA and seeing people scream for no other reason than to scream
OP
- Thread Starter
- #19
Good point. It should not come from the throat, but from the tanden with a roar.
:asian:
Zero
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I gotta agree a lot with Deaf Smith, I never used or felt the need to use a Kiai when fighting. When I was younger and competed in points/sport tournaments then as said below, a good yell can get you a point regardless of whether you actually connected, or would have even connected. But aside as something as artificial as sport karate or as required in kata there is no significant real world application that I see.
Everyting of course has its time and place, when sparring with my sensei when I was still green, he would sometimes let out a kiai, not normally a high pitched wail or a shout/scream, but a more guttural noise, this put me off balance a bit as it indicated some heavy duty **** was about to come my way. To put off or distract an opponent can be good but not someting that will go far against someone seasoned.
In goju ryu we definitely kiai in most of the kata, on a power move or strike at the end of most sections.
But for fighting I was trained not to give away your breathing timing, to be able to read an oponents exalation/inhalation is a very effective tool and tells you just when it will be worst to strike their solar plexus.
Everyting of course has its time and place, when sparring with my sensei when I was still green, he would sometimes let out a kiai, not normally a high pitched wail or a shout/scream, but a more guttural noise, this put me off balance a bit as it indicated some heavy duty **** was about to come my way. To put off or distract an opponent can be good but not someting that will go far against someone seasoned.
In goju ryu we definitely kiai in most of the kata, on a power move or strike at the end of most sections.
But for fighting I was trained not to give away your breathing timing, to be able to read an oponents exalation/inhalation is a very effective tool and tells you just when it will be worst to strike their solar plexus.
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