Kenpo technique video clips. Any comments?

[MJS]

As for the armchair quarter backing. I've seen forums where people are bashing Kenpo left and right. People have a habit of seeing something and right away, forming an opinion of it, even if they have not seen all that there is to see. People who don't know any better, look at clips like this, and automatically assume that ALL Kenpo is like this, when in reality it is not, as there are many excellent people out there that can give a true demonstration as to what the art is really all about.

As I said before...anytime someone puts a clip out for the world to see, its a given that there will be some strong comments..some good and some bad. However, I'd want to give the best display that I possibly could.

Mike

 

[Brother John]

WOW......

5 Swords looks like a Happy little massage to the upper chest.

Your Brother (tooo bad)
John

 

[mj-hi-yah]

I watched all of the video clips and I speak on this as a video editor and a person who studies Kenpo. If that was the best I had to work with in terms of footage, and that was all that I was producing, I probably would not have put it out there on the net. Who knows how many takes they did to get clips that someone felt were strong? To me these clips were not just a snapshot in time - a decision was made as to which clips would be worthy of representing the school, and these in my opinion were not clips of people learning but rather demonstrating a learned skill. So if that is the best footage of the demonstrated techniques, than I am sorry to say the rest (the stuff that hits the editing room floor) must be really weak. The only thing I did note from a videographer's perspective is that the girl in 5 Swords looked camera shy and perhaps was not taking it seriously (not that a hidden camera would necessarily change it much), but in all, there was not one redeeming clip and most disappointing was the black belt's performance.

I do respect their willingness to try though, and I hope that if any of you who are in the clips read this you accept it as a learning experience and use it as a stepping stone to improve your Kenpo. :asian:

 

[Maltair]

They were deff practicing what my instructer calls "polite Kenpo" No intensity, Used while still learning the moves of a new tech. (In addition to all the other stuff said above).
I'm not so afraid to post clips on the web now I'll have to work on that...

 

[hammer]

Wow Funny!

 

[Goldendragon7]

I watched all of the video clips and if that was the best I had to work with in terms of footage, I probably would not have put it out there on the net.

To me these clips were not just a snapshot in time - a decision was made as to which clips would be worthy of representing the school, and these in my opinion were not clips of people learning but rather demonstrating a learned skill.

So if that is the best footage of the demonstrated techniques, than I am sorry to say ..... all in all, there was not one redeeming clip and most disappointing was the black belt's performance.
:asian:

"Those that do not know that they are walking in darkness will never see the light."

If that's what they have been taught as good Kenpo, and not been exposed to seminars or seen any of Kenpo's better practitioner's, then they (like so many others) will have a rude awakening when they finally run across someone that IS good.

I just wonder if they know the difference between what's "good" and what's "developmental" at what level or belt rank?

:idunno:

 

[Goldendragon7]

They were practicing what my instructer calls "polite Kenpo" No intensity.

Hey, I like that term!

I'm not so afraid to post clips on the web now

Yes, we can't wait!

:asian:

 

[Kenpodoc]

4 examples of the technique I like to call Fluttering Moth. I particularly like doing flashing mace inside the arms.

Jeff

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

And y'all wonder why people dis Kenpo? Of course, our good freind Clyde posted these same links on Bullshido.com in PR crusade for good Kenpo.

But you know, it is pretty easy to embarass yourself via video...and make a perfectly respectable Kenpo school look cheesy:

You could do a school demo where you have people standing in square horses doing inward blocks...
http://dragonflyvillage.com/johnc

You could post a video of delayed sword that you created just to test your camera and website creation capabilities...
http://www.kenpoprofessor.com/Clyde_Video.html

You could venture outside your primary area of expertise...
http://www.ltatum.com/movies/Week22/TipOfTheWeekMedW22.html

Or, you can make your quickly prepared Kenpo demo look cool by:

Hitting hard and Kiaing loudly...
http://www.stanford.edu/group/kenpo/demo.mov

Or, you can disguise your Kenpo by:

Diming the lights, positioning the camera far away, editing heavily, and adding cool music...
http://www.losaltoskarate.com/
(click the neon sign for the demo video)

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

And that instructor bio was the first time I have ever seen anyone claim to train with both George Dilman AND Royce Gracie. :roflmao

 

[Ceicei]

And y'all wonder why people dis Kenpo?

But you know, it is pretty easy to embarass yourself via video...and make a perfectly respectable Kenpo school look cheesy:

Actually, even those links you provide show much better kenpo than in the clip that was in the original post of this thread.

- Ceicei

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Actually, even those links you provide show much better kenpo stuff than the one that was in the original post of this thread.

- Ceicei

Agreed. Those Red Dragon videos are terrible!

But my point is that it is pretty easy for a good Kenpoist to do something that really embarrasses themselves. There was a lot of negative discussion about Clyde's Delayed Sword on the KenpoNet, lot's of negative discussion about Tatum's ground technique on several fora, and Santa Clara Kenpo is a top notch school--though you certainly couldn't tell from the demo clip.

On the other hand, it is pretty easy for a good video producer to make you look good. The lower ranking students I've seen at the Los Altos school sure don't move like the instructor instructor in the video.

 

[Ceicei]

Yes, I recall those arguments over at KenpoNet.... Who's to say that Kenpo stylists don't love an "intense discussion"? :wink:

I do get your point. At least these other clips didn't shy from displaying some power.

- Ceicei

 

[swiftpete]

this guy is the worst instructor i've ever seen. he actually looks like a white belt trying out a technique for the first time when he demonstrates. if i walked into the class and saw this guy instructing after laughing a lot i would walk out again. funny but completely gay, i'd love to see his limp floppy unsure style at one of our training sessions!

i actually reckon my 7 stone girlfriend would fare well against this guy in a full contact match up and she's never trained in her life.

the students are getting bumthraped if they're paying this guy anything.

 

[swiftpete]

in case i was unclear i meant the original videos from when the thread was first started. pretty obvious but thought i'd add that.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

this guy is the worst instructor i've ever seen. he actually looks like a white belt trying out a technique for the first time when he demonstrates. if i walked into the class and saw this guy instructing after laughing a lot i would walk out again. funny but completely gay, i'd love to see his limp floppy unsure style at one of our training sessions!

i actually reckon my 7 stone girlfriend would fare well against this guy in a full contact match up and she's never trained in her life.

the students are getting bumthraped if they're paying this guy anything.

Gee, I'd love to see a ninjitsu video that was even half as good as the Red Dragon Kenpo videos. Gotta link?

 

[rmcrobertson]

First off, I'm not sure I see--well actually, I don't see at all--what's so terrible about a video showing a class of students starting out and warming up with a set of strong inward blocks. Even if the instructor's horse stance could stand a little work (and how good are yours?), looks pretty damn good to me. (I know, I know....Bruce Lee...the mess of tradition....they're not GRAPPLING!)

Second off, I'm not sure I see how anything Clyde or Mr. Tatum...actually, ya know what? The hell with it. Mr. Wortman, you simply don't know what you're talking about. Keep crusading! I know...the Emperor has no clothes? You're here to clean up martial arts? Good for you. Go git 'em. But I just permanently lost interest.

Now as for those videos in question, well, you don't even need to animate them to see that the yellow belt chic is in trouble from the git-go--she's never going to recover from the head-lock, not that there really was one.

There were two nice comments here, one from Mr. Wortman, to the effect that it's one thing to do the stuff well, and another thing to look good on video. It was a good point, too, to say that this is "polite kenpo--" the moves are sorta there in embryonic form (for one thing, they're too little), but there's no stance, no power, no spirit.

What I find more interesting is that those videos suggest something about the, "internal," aspect to kenpo, which we often don't think about. That's partly why Mr. Chap'el insists on his "sub-level," kenpo--I suspect, from what I've read, that he's gotten more and more interested in all the stuff you DON'T see on those movies.

They're also a useful warning about what can happen to our own kenpo. For one thing, we can easily get all wrapped up in our own school--so much so that we lose sight of the world outside, or forget how we've manipulated to give ourselves a false sense of accomplishment.

For another, how many times have you watched someone waving their hands, asked them what they were doing, and gotten the reply, "Oh, I was just remembering Long 5?" No stance, no movement, no focus--but they're remembering Long 5 or whatever. How different is that from those videos?

And last--what Das Clyde calls, as others have, "the spirit of the attack," and, "emotional content." There isn't any. And it's not because those guys aren't swaggering and beating each other with sticks--you can see emtional content in good t'ai chi, if you choose to look. To me, what was significant--and what's embarassing--about those videos--is that if you're honest, they exemplify tendencies that we all have to fight against. They may be extremes--but they're not nearly as different as we'd all like to think.

So here's the real question: suppose you got parachuted in to Help Those Poor Bastits. How would you do it? Me, I'd probably start teaching stance sets--then after they couldn't walk, I'd probably teach 'em how to dummy up and let nature take its course....

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Well, good to see that hobbyhorse, Alan.

First off, I'm not sure I see--well actually, I don't see at all--what's so terrible about a video showing a class of students starting out and warming up with a set of strong inward blocks. Even if the instructor's horse stance could stand a little work (and how good are yours?), looks pretty damn good to me. (I know, I know....Bruce Lee...the mess of tradition....they're not GRAPPLING!)

Second off, I'm not sure I see how anything Clyde or Mr. Tatum...actually, ya know what? The hell with it. Mr. Wortman, you simply don't know what you're talking about. Keep crusading! I know...the Emperor has no clothes? You're here to clean up martial arts? Good for you. Go git 'em. But I just permanently lost interest.

Now as for those videos in question, well, you don't even need to animate them to see that the yellow belt chic is in trouble from the git-go--she's never going to recover from the head-lock, not that there really was one.

There were two nice comments here, one from Mr. Wortman, to the effect that it's one thing to do the stuff well, and another thing to look good on video. It was a good point, too, to say that this is "polite kenpo--" the moves are sorta there in embryonic form (for one thing, they're too little), but there's no stance, no power, no spirit.

What I find more interesting is that those videos suggest something about the, "internal," aspect to kenpo, which we often don't think about. That's partly why Mr. Chap'el insists on his "sub-level," kenpo--I suspect, from what I've read, that he's gotten more and more interested in all the stuff you DON'T see on those movies.

They're also a useful warning about what can happen to our own kenpo. For one thing, we can easily get all wrapped up in our own school--so much so that we lose sight of the world outside, or forget how we've manipulated to give ourselves a false sense of accomplishment.

For another, how many times have you watched someone waving their hands, asked them what they were doing, and gotten the reply, "Oh, I was just remembering Long 5?" No stance, no movement, no focus--but they're remembering Long 5 or whatever. How different is that from those videos?

And last--what Das Clyde calls, as others have, "the spirit of the attack," and, "emotional content." There isn't any. And it's not because those guys aren't swaggering and beating each other with sticks--you can see emtional content in good t'ai chi, if you choose to look. To me, what was significant--and what's embarassing--about those videos--is that if you're honest, they exemplify tendencies that we all have to fight against. They may be extremes--but they're not nearly as different as we'd all like to think.

So here's the real question: suppose you got parachuted in to Help Those Poor Bastits. How would you do it? Me, I'd probably start teaching stance sets--then after they couldn't walk, I'd probably teach 'em how to dummy up and let nature take its course....

First off, SC Kenpo are doing a KENPO demo in a HIGHLY COMPETITIVE Geography and they show the most basic and unimpressive movement possible... Do you think they will attract anybody who is shopping around via the internet? They are only a few miles from Cung Le, Ernie Reyes West Coast Martial Arts, a Gracie Academy, AKA Kickboxing, and about 80 others. If your school was surrounded by competition of that level, wouldn't you put something more impressive on your website... Well, let’s see…your school is in that kind of environment, and you do have many many very impressive video clips. Dozens in fact.

Second off, you sure do write a lot for someone who has completely lost interest. My only point in linking to those two videos of your mentors was to show how easy it is for even good Kenpoists to make a video people might not like.

As to the original videos in question, I will never be as eloquent as you. I would simply say: “they suck.” The technique videos, and the sparring videos suck. But, the point of my post was that they may not be wholly representative—just like Clyde’s Delayed Sword or SC Kenpo’s inward block demo.

As to how to help these folks if I were parachuted in…I’d suggest just a few things: Think through the message you want to communicate via the demos,
Do some heavy bag work and learn how to deliver power.
Do the attacks for real!
If the defender can’t make the technique work, fight back—make it real!
Hit hard! Techniques work better if you hit the Uke.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

On the other hand, it is pretty easy for a good video producer to make you look good.

This is a good point, and definitely true. It's possible to, and I have made a fight look like it had a whole different outcome from the truth just through editing.

I also agree that at any given moment if a camera were to capture just anything I was practicing in Kenpo I for one would probably not want it out there for criticism, because the context would be unclear to the viewer, but in this instance these clips were chosen to represent the school's teaching and the students' capabilities, bad editing choices, maybe but I doubt it, but as a consolation they can always blame it on the editor! :uhyeah: Could there be some good things happening at that school? It's possible...

Goldendragon 7 parachute in there and show them the power of the force:jedi1: because honestly they looked like very nice people and I'd hate to see them get hurt because of a possible false sense of security.:asian:

 

[The Kai]

My thought is that it is unlikely the people did'nt know they ere being filmned-so they should've been extra sharp.

The techniques, power and focus are horrible. I can guarenntee you every karate person has has watched these videos has thought "See, kenpo is B.S."

If I could they would work on stances, Basics, Body Conditioning, getting used to getting hit, getting used to hitting. Then start them on white belt stuff