Kenpo technique video clips. Any comments?

[Goldendragon7]

Damn... that was close.
I thought my name was among the list of people that taught him.
He listed everybody.

No, he didn't list everybody ........ I was absent from the list also.......LOL:supcool: (thank goodness)!!!!!!!

 

[Bill Lear]

Someone from that studio is either going to get seriously hurt or killed. My heart literally sank while I watched those videos. That was sad. Really, really sad.

:shrug:

 

[Dr. Kenpo]

No, he didn't list everybody ........ I was absent from the list also.......LOL:supcool: (thank goodness)!!!!!!!

Not true, I heard you had it removed!:whip:

 

[Rick Wade]

is this more tails of the goldendragon tha twe haven't heard.

Have you been moonlighting on the east coast?

V/R

 

[Dr. Kenpo]

is this more tails of the goldendragon tha twe haven't heard.

Have you been moonlighting on the east coast?

V/R

Yes, I've been absent as of late, but more controversy stirs from the nest of the Goldendragon.

No, I don't hang on the East Coast. That's where all the Mafioso types hang out, like Kaith, Seig, and a few others.

 

[howardr]

Someone from that studio is either going to get seriously hurt or killed. My heart literally sank while I watched those videos. That was sad. Really, really sad.

:shrug:

Yup, me too (heart sinking). That's why I said that while I don't enjoy poking fun at the instructor and students (who are certainly the least culpable in this case), I'm bothered that the students may think they are capable of defending themselves. Yup, hurt or killed.

 

[Ceicei]

Well, some thoughts... it is easy to criticize while being armchair quarterbacks.

Remember they are still students with varying degrees of skill. Some of the videos shown were of yellow belts and they are hardly "very good" at that level. They are still working on timing, control, power, etc., and that hopefully will come along better the more they learn. Some principles aren't very easy to pick up. I would give more slack with the beginners and give suggestions how they can improve.

I do agree the brown belts should have been much better. Which level brown does make a difference though in their abilities and skill.

It can be challenge sometimes to be very smooth and execute the techniques properly with correct body mechanics while on camera. People sometimes try too hard when they know they are under "the eye". At least, they appear to enjoy what they are doing. I do hope that as they progress through the ranks, they become more realistic with what they do and focus on making things actually work, not just simply going through the motions. They should be made *very aware* that even the best martial artist will not always come out unscathed in a conflict.

- Ceicei

 

[Goldendragon7]

Ummmmm....no comment. But I will say the majority of Kenpo schools in my area are exactly like that. :idunno:

I'm not really clear here..... are you saying that "the majority of Kenpo schools in my area " are similar to the quality of skills demonstrated in the videos we are discussing?

If so..... then,

I would have to say this is not a NEW issue or problem. The internet has been a wonderful tool for communication but at the same time it is a double edged sword. While information can be found on any subject that one can imagine, it also has made available a "billboard of opportunity" for anyone to display what they do or offer. (actually a good thing if you think about it, it allows the viewers further insight as to what is being offered)

An old saying in business has been for eons..... {as Doc pointed out in a prior post} ... Caveat Emptor which is Latin for "Let the buyer beware." The idea that buyers take responsibility for the condition of the items they purchase and should examine them before purchase. This is especially true for items that are not covered under a strict warranty. While this may work ok for 'tangible" goods..... how does one check the "intangible" such as instruction where there is no warranty at all......:idunno: there in lies the problem. Anyone is free to do or offer anything for any amount regardless of the quality or in this case, what appears to be the serious lack of.

What hurts us is..... when we find something like this that has the same name of the "so called" Art or product that WE also use! We poke fun at "the other" style, art, guy etc. all the time, but when it is one of our own.... OMG! No one wants to be "associated" with a bad or poor product, especially in the martial arts [specifically Kenpo in this case] where we are deeply emotionally, psychologically, intellectually, and physically involved to the degree that most of us fanatics are!

Many have expressed concerns and feelings for the Students that are being possibly mislead or taught poorly, this shows concern and compassion on our part and that is admirable. I don't believe anyone "blames" the students but rather the instructors which are in the responsible position of leading or teaching of material that could very well effect the life of an individual.

Yes, it is sad, but what is more upsetting to me is the helplessness of what I can personally do to help them. The best answer I can come up with, is to use these examples as motivation to teach to the best of MY abilities to MY students so I can sleep comfortably at night knowing that I have done my best to inform, guide, teach, share, and train truthfully and responsibly.

This issue is universal, and it is not going to go away anytime soon. Quality is something we will address over and over again with virtually every type of product and business out there. The best we can do is to keep each other informed {word of mouth}, expose the frauds and recommend or indorse the good. I guess that is what we are doing with this forum and others..... LOL

:asian:

 

[parkerkarate]

I do not mean to be roude but that must have been the ugliest display of Kenpo Karate I have ever seen. I do not mean to talk bad about people but those high ranking belts need to get their yellow belts back. I am sorry if I have offended anybody, but to be a black belt or anything around there you need to be alot better than what I saw. To me a black belt needs to be a master, that is probably a wrong word to use, but they need to be very fluent and very powerful. They should not still move like a yellow belt lets put it that way.
Again I am sorry if I have offended anybody

 

[Bill Lear]

Well, some thoughts... it is easy to criticize while being armchair quarterbacks.

Remember they are still students with varying degrees of skill. Some of the videos shown were of yellow belts and they are hardly "very good" at that level. They are still working on timing, control, power, etc., and that hopefully will come along better the more they learn. Some principles aren't very easy to pick up. I would give more slack with the beginners and give suggestions how they can improve.

I do agree the brown belts should have been much better. Which level brown does make a difference though in their abilities and skill.

It can be challenge sometimes to be very smooth and execute the techniques properly with correct body mechanics while on camera. People sometimes try too hard when they know they are under "the eye". At least, they appear to enjoy what they are doing. I do hope that as they progress through the ranks, they become more realistic with what they do and focus on making things actually work, not just simply going through the motions. They should be made *very aware* that even the best martial artist will not always come out unscathed in a conflict.

- Ceicei

Ceicei,


What is your definition of an armchair quarterback? Around here that term identifies someone as a mere spectator that comments on a professionals performance without ever being in the profession himself. If that's the case I think you're looking at this from a narrow prespective. There are years of experience on this board. Most of the people commenting are people that have experience and are themselves practitioners in the art presented.


:idunno:

While the people in the video are probably nice people (I don't know them) that doesn't change the fact that the demonstrated material on the videos is bad (and I mean really bad).

Joe Montana is arguably one of the best quarterbacks of all time. If he were watching a game and commented on how bad it was being played, would he be considered an armchair quarterback? I mean, sheesh, if the players were running down the feild with their helmets on backwards I think it would be his obligation to say something before someone got hurt.

Just my opinion.

 

[Mark Weiser]

Sorry Guys I had to put in my two sense worth here. As a beginning student in EPAK. What I saw how should I say had a lot to be desired. In the Five Swords there was no Stepping up the circle to gain torque. There was no power at all in the Technique.


In the Grip of Death again no power in Stance changes oh there was no stance changes that is why lol lol.

The only explanation is that these were new students maybe a few days into Kenpo? But what does that say about the Instructor and why would he put such low quality video on his Website?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Schools like this are where people get the "Yeah, I saw a Kenpo black belt once, and gave him a whoopin" from.

Some people miss the intent presented in the name of technique, and how that should drive focus. Consider the name "5 swords". Swinging a sword to bury in an opponent, or dismember him, how much "oomph" should be present? "Thundering Hammers"...not "Tinkling Drumsticks". Get it? Should hear the impact from accross a field, as thunder, breaking things wherever they land, as hammers.

This video of flashing mace might be better named "flashing old women in Central Park"?

D.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Well, some thoughts... it is easy to criticize while being armchair quarterbacks.
- Ceicei

Very True! We can only see what is there to see. We are not able to have seen what the "starting skills" were of these students, as well as personal mental and physical abilities. However, as "Billy Lear" stated, many of the viewers that have commented, do have reasonable skills and experience (refer to Billy's Joe Montana analogy) and are more than capable of reasonable observations and comments due to their level of expertise.

Some of the videos shown were of yellow belts and they are hardly "very good" at that level.
- Ceicei

Well, even though the "yellow belt" is a beginning belt to most of us, I know of many students that are well on their way to a wonderful journey in Kenpo and other martial arts as well, that demonstrate a much higher level of understanding and skill development than what was captured on these particular videos.

They (the students recorded) are still working on timing, control, power, etc., and that hopefully will come along better the more they learn. Some principles aren't very easy to pick up. I would give more slack with the beginners and give suggestions how they can improve.
- Ceicei

Ceicei, I don't find anywhere :idunno: in this thread where anyone was criticizing any of the particular students but rather the quality of the material and training (or lack there of) that they have been given.

I do agree the brown belts should have been much better. Which level brown does make a difference though in their abilities and skill.
- Ceicei

Once again, we don't know what the progression level of each of these individuals are either. They may be demonstrating a great deal of skill for themselves compared to where they started or they may be grossly deficient (in the developmental department) of skills that are necessary. This could either be due to poor instruction and training or lack of sufficient personal practice.

It can be challenge sometimes to be very smooth and execute the techniques properly with correct body mechanics while on camera. People sometimes try too hard when they know they are under "the eye".
- Ceicei

Also very true, however I can still recognize good movement from bad.

At least, they appear to enjoy what they are doing.
- Ceicei

Affirmative....... I think we all agree on that point, but the main concerns of most who have commented, is more for the reality of what the martial arts skills that you have been taught, can offer you when in true time of need on the street.

I do hope that as they progress through the ranks, they become more realistic with what they do and focus on making things actually work, not just simply going through the motions.
- Ceicei

I am sure we all hope for the most positive outcome for the students.

They should be made *very aware* that even the best martial artist will not always come out unscathed in a conflict.
- Ceicei

Again, a very important issue. We have no control over that, we can only hope that the instructors will do just as you have stated.

BTW ... Great discussions and interactions from all who have commented.... this platform gives us a great vehicle to "bounce' off of each other and learn. Either you see a new perspective that you may not have considered before or you validate an impression or opinion that you already have formulated.

:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Schools like this are where people get the "Yeah, I saw a Kenpo black belt once, and gave him a whoopin" from.

Some people miss the intent presented in the name of technique, and how that should drive focus. Consider the name "5 swords". Swinging a sword to bury in an opponent, or dismember him, how much "oomph" should be present? "Thundering Hammers"...not "Tinkling Drumsticks". Get it? Should hear the impact from accross a field, as thunder, breaking things wherever they land, as hammers.

This video of flashing mace might be better named "flashing old women in Central Park"?

D.

OMG....... you are bad artyon:

 

[Ceicei]

Ceicei,

What is your definition of an armchair quarterback? Around here that term identifies someone as a mere spectator that comments on a professionals performance without ever being in the profession himself. If that's the case I think you're looking at this from a narrow prespective. There are years of experience on this board. Most of the people commenting are people that have experience and are themselves practitioners in the art presented.

Bill,
I'll agree with you there. Probably a poor choice of words on my part to use the term "armchair quarterback" that loosely. What I was saying is a person making comments about something without actually being at that site and the situation that day when they were taped. I wasn't necessarily comparing this as a "professional performance" (and the clips certainly were not).

Nevertheless, is the problem just the individuals themselves who weren't simply that good (in other words, there are others there who are better), or is the problem rampant throughout the entire school that were being videotaped? If it is just the individuals and there are others who were better, then they didn't make a good choice of who to tape. If it is a school wide problem, then.... well, the instructor has to bear the responsibility.

There are plenty here on this forum, as you've pointed out, who's been around the kenpo block more than once, and even were there with the original kenpo master. Who else, better than them, to be able to make comments on the kenpo performance of others?

While the people in the video are probably nice people (I don't know them) that doesn't change the fact that the demonstrated material on the videos is bad (and I mean really bad).

Agreed. The material could and *should* have been shown much better. Was quality of techniques the focus of the video clips or did he have a different purpose, just simply to show "students are having fun" at that school? I suppose the average John and Jane Q with no MA background wouldn't know the difference if they were just looking around for a school.

Joe Montana is arguably one of the best quarterbacks of all time. If he were watching a game and commented on how bad it was being played, would he be considered an armchair quarterback? I mean, sheesh, if the players were running down the feild with their helmets on backwards I think it would be his obligation to say something before someone got hurt.

Just my opinion.

A professional should indeed say something, of course. No, Joe Montana wouldn't be an armchair quarterback. I apologize again for my poor choice of words.

Just at what level do you expect them to become really good, well enough to demonstrate properly on video? Do you expect the white-yellow-orange belts to be able to show timing, control, power, etc. from day one, or do you make allowance for them to learn and develop along the way? If so, when is your benchmark (just curious) that you measure the average student against for these skills to finally come together?

- Ceicei

 

[ikenpo]

In the Five Swords there was no Stepping up the circle to gain torque.

Is the primary purpose of moving up the circle in five swords to "gain torque"?

jb :ubercool:

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Is the primary purpose of moving up the circle in five swords to "gain torque"?

jb :ubercool:

No

DarK LorD

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

There are plenty here on this forum, as you've pointed out, who's been around the kenpo block more than once, and even were there with the original kenpo master. Who else, better than them, to be able to make comments on the kenpo performance of others?
A professional should indeed say something, of course. No, Joe Montana wouldn't be an armchair quarterback. I apologize again for my poor choice of words.

Just at what level do you expect them to become really good, well enough to demonstrate properly on video? Do you expect the white-yellow-orange belts to be able to show timing, control, power, etc. from day one, or do you make allowance for them to learn and develop along the way? If so, when is your benchmark (just curious) that you measure the average student against for these skills to finally come together?

- Ceicei

I've got Yellow and Orange Belt that look 100 times more efficient than the Blue and Black Belts performing the techs, and I'm constantly bitchin' at them for everything LOL. I've yet to see worse Kenpo than that, but I'm sure I'll see something worse down the road. In fact, I've seen the UFAF (Chuck Norris' org.) guys do Kenpo techs. better than this as they've made some techs. (ie. Destructive Twins) part of their curriculum as well.




DarK LorD

 

[ikenpo]

No

DarK LorD

Duuuuude, the question was for Mark.....lol...

jb

 

[Ceicei]

I've got Yellow and Orange Belt that look 100 times more efficient than the Blue and Black Belts performing the techs, and I'm constantly bitchin' at them for everything LOL.

That's the way it should be. I am really glad you care about the quality of your students.

I've yet to see worse Kenpo than that, but I'm sure I'll see something worse down the road. In fact, I've seen the UFAF (Chuck Norris' org.) guys do Kenpo techs. better than this as they've made some techs. (ie. Destructive Twins) part of their curriculum as well.

DarK LorD

I didn't realize there would be other styles that aren't Kenpo based using Kenpo techs. Interesting! I suppose this shouldn't be surprising since Mr. Parker and Mr. Norris were acquainted with each other. I wonder how much sharing they did....

- Ceicei