Kenpo Factions

[kenpochip]

Is Kenpo more divided (in terms of numbers of substyles and animosity among them) than other major styles of martial arts? If so, why? Is it Kenpo's experimental and practical philosophy or is it just the nature of martial art systems in general?

KenpoChip

 

[fanged_seamus]

This is strictly a personal opinion, but I don't think kenpo is more or less "fractured" than other systems. Look at all the "flavors" of Jeet Kune Do and you'll think kenpo is virtually a unified system. And systems that aren't highly fractured have a high degree of variability in quality -- tae kwon do as an example.

My personal opinion is that personality-driven systems (like American kenpo and JKD) fracture upon the death of the unifying personality. As egos begin to take over, entropy prevails and BAM -- you get Baskin-Robbins 31 flavors.

I love kenpo and many of its flavors -- and I'll be happy studying them for a long time.

Just my opinion and nothing more....

Tad Finnegan

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Entropy... huh. :redeme:


It's nice to know I'm not the only engineering/science geek around here. Are you one of Bruce's or Kathy/Marlene?

 

[fanged_seamus]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo

Entropy... huh.

It's nice to know I'm not the only engineering/science geek around here. Are you one of Bruce's or Kathy/Marlene?

When I'm in training, I'm with Newark Kenpo Karate (Kathy & Marlene's studio). I'm temporarily out of training (job issue) , but hope to be back with them soon. I still try to stop in to say "hi" every now and again....

Tad Finnegan

PS: Glad to see fellow geeks can spot me right off the bat....

 

[fanged_seamus]

BTW, KenpoYahoo, who are you in real life?

Tad

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by fanged_seamus



When I'm in training, I'm with Newark Kenpo Karate (Kathy & Marlene's studio). I'm temporarily out of training (job issue) , but hope to be back with them soon. I still try to stop in to say "hi" every now and again....

Tad Finnegan

PS: Glad to see fellow geeks can spot me right off the bat....

You've got me thinking here. Under your name says Delaware, ohio or the state?
Jason Farnsworth

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by fanged_seamus

My personal opinion is that personality-driven systems (like American kenpo and JKD) fracture upon the death of the unifying personality. As egos begin to take over, entropy prevails and BAM -- you get Baskin-Robbins 31 flavors.

We're seeing it in Modern Arnis now, which centered atrongly around the late Prof. Presas.

Speaking more generally, though, is this bad? From the split come subsystems, experimentation, choice...I hate to see it in my own art but philosophically I'm not sure it's a bad thing.

Evolution, not entropy.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Delaware, ohio or the state?

State

:asian:

 

[fanged_seamus]

Originally posted by arnisador



We're seeing it in Modern Arnis now, which centered atrongly around the late Prof. Presas.

Speaking more generally, though, is this bad? From the split come subsystems, experimentation, choice...I hate to see it in my own art but philosophically I'm not sure it's a bad thing.

Evolution, not entropy.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to see these splits, but it does force people new to the martial arts into a "buyer beware" situation. I personally love the subsystem ("flavor") of American kenpo I study, and I don't know that it would exist if Mr. Parker were still alive.

The only real problem, IMO, is that the students have to be even MORE cautious to avoid opportunists. Those people, the ones who take advantage of the students, really tick me off since they end up giving a bad name to the art as a whole.

I like your quote of "evolution, not entropy" -- we just need to make sure that the "maladaptive species" die out so the art is stronger on the whole.

Tad Finnegan

PS: Mr. Farnswortth, as Goldendragon7 said, I live in the state of Delaware, about 30 minutes from downtown Philadelphia.

 

[Les]

Originally posted by fanged_seamus


I personally love the subsystem ("flavor") of American kenpo I study, and I don't know that it would exist if Mr. Parker were still alive.

Tad,

As I understand it, before he formed our Association, the Paul Mills Family Group were taking that direction within the IKKA.

So perhaps that flavor was there all along, but you had to be training in a particular area to get a taste of it.

Golden Dragon will probably be able to enlighten us.

Les

 

[Les]

Originally posted by fanged_seamus

BTW, KenpoYahoo, who are you in real life?

Tad

Kenpo Yahoo, a mythical legend, travelling through cyberspace, intriguing the population of many forums, and leaving a trail of interesting and informative posts.

KenpoYahoo, are you who I thought you were in the private message I sent you?

Les

 

[fanged_seamus]

Originally posted by Les



Kenpo Yahoo, a mythical legend, travelling through cyberspace, intriguing the population of many forums, and leaving a trail of interesting and informative posts.

KenpoYahoo, are you who I thought you were in the private message I sent you?

Les

Ah...didn't know that Kenpo Yahoo didn't want to be "outed." Since I'd seen him/her on other forums mentioning the AKKI, I was curious to see who he/she was. Alas, the mystery shall remain....

Tad

 

[fanged_seamus]

Originally posted by Les

As I understand it, before he formed our Association, the Paul Mills Family Group were taking that direction within the IKKA.

So perhaps that flavor was there all along, but you had to be training in a particular area to get a taste of it.

Golden Dragon will probably be able to enlighten us.

Les

Actually, that brings up a point about all the kenpo factions. I mentioned that I felt strong personalities unite a system of martial arts -- but that's not always the case. Theoretically, the evolution of a system might depend on the people under the founder having the freedom to explore their own ideas and incorporate them.

Mr. Ed Parker himself took the ball and ran with it, so to speak. He wanted to modernize kenpo to handle modern self-defense issues. What if he didn't have the freedom to explore that option? What if his ideas were suppressed?

Maybe Mr. Parker's passing allowed some of the senior instructors to explore areas they might not have considered before. Not because Mr. Parker ruled with an iron fist (although I heard his fist FELT like iron), but because they respected him too much to interfere with "his" art.

I really like the arnisador's statement about "evolution" the more I think about it....

Tad

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

KenpoYahoo, are you who I thought you were in the private message I sent you?

I guess not, cause I never got a message. Are you or any of your guys going to make it to the Fall camp? Hope to see you there

 

[kenpochip]

I like the idea of evolution metaphor, too, but I suggest that it may be more productive to consider the substyles as individuals within a species, rather than new species themselves.

When the substyle is viewed as a species, it suggests that only new substyles will inherit the adaptations, the substyles being somehow incompatible with each other as different species. If the substyle is viewed as an individual, that individual's offspring (future versions of the substyle itself or a "child" with another substyle) may incorporate useful adaptations.

Looking at it this way encourages the sharing of information among the various substyles that are compatible enough to do so. In real life, many practitioners go to seminars sponsored by other associations, which is a good thing.

I think it would be useful to have the AKSC help all of the substyles continue to innovate and share information. Some sort of rank recognition across the associations may be a useful part of enouraging someone from one association to be open to training with or otherwise sharing with someone from another association.

Chip

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Taken from the homepage of www.aksc.org

"The purpose of the American Kenpo Senior Council is to perpetuate the art of American Kenpo as originally envisioned by Senior Grand Master Ed Parker. To this end the Council will seek to enlighten those who consider themselves to be part of the lineage of Ed Parker regardless of association or affiliation. The Council will provide leadership, guidance, advice, and assistance in the art as well as methods and means for acknowledging the dedication and efforts of others in the system deserving of recognition. The Council will legitimize the attainment of those who receive rank from it and will outline standardized requirements in which to endorse and promote rankings for Fifth Degree Black Belt and above."

What does everyone think about this?

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
The very first sentence says it all. How can a system evolve when their are organizations created to keep it the way it was originally designed? Seems a little counter-intuitive doesn't it.

Not if you understand exactly what the design was!!

Mr. Parker never restricted thought, this was in the core design within the Kenpo Tools (Equation Formula, Universal Pattern, Principles, ASOM etc.), not just the curriculum (which was formed to establish a BASE to help the beginners & allow the advanced to expan upon).

Keeping that vision complete, alive, and intact was the purpose. Mr. Parker always loved the thinkers and doers.

:asian:

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

AHHHH you caught me.

I thought about what I had written and decided to change it, to see what others thought. However, I don't see how you can bring about an evolution of a system without questioning the building blocks of that system. From what I've seen, most aren't willing to question anything set forth by Mr. Parker. The man was a phenom., but even he evaluated what he did and made several changes through the years, why is everyone so afraid to do the same?

 

[Kirk]

How often would one chess player be so bold as to question
the foremost expert in Chess? I'm not a chess player, so I can't
use any example other than Bobby Fischer. Never lost a match!
Few have the knowledge and expertise to question his skills. I
think it's bold that SO MANY question the leaders and experts in
martial arts. Some have done it successfully .. but how many
haven't?

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
From what I've seen, most aren't willing to question anything set forth by Mr. Parker. The man was a phenom., but even he evaluated what he did and made several changes through the years, why is everyone so afraid to do the same?

but from my point of view..... several are.

Many are quibbling over the correct sequential order of a technique often times, rather than the principles behind it. Many want to be correct because "Ed Parker" showed them this way or that way (which he may have barring misunderstandings) .... however, the truth of the matter is ...... often times they are all correct...... Mr. Parker just showed a different variation of the base attack (which can be endless).

I don't think people are afraid of studying the "Building Blocks" of the system at all, but Damn, he covered most of the bases pretty darn well to begin with, so oftentimes, there is no need to reinvent the wheel in my opinion.

Should the time come that we find a big hole to fill, we will or someone will someday.

I believe we have one of the most valuable systems going but we need to understand the "core" much better -- if this were done we would have much less misunderstandings between one another.

:asian: