keep in mind that if your opponent is hard to stop, so are you.

Brian King

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This is a long article and very good analyses worth reading (more than once) all the way to the end. The mindset discussed pertains to all that engage in action professions and any that find themselves in personal combat.

http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-articles/articles/lom/0412/the_peter_soulis_incident.html;jsessionid=10BDC02F0CF4D0B083E43EA06A47B949pital

Also, keep in mind that if your opponent is hard to stop, so are you.

In fact, the wounds severe bleeding only served to stir his warrior spirit and focus his concerns on what Palmer might do if allowed to escape.

Palmer took an astonishing 22 hits, seventeen of which were to center mass, before succumbing to his wounds

In fact, the wounds severe bleeding only served to stir his warrior spirit and focus his concerns on what Palmer might do if allowed to escape.

Warmest Regards
Brian King
 

jarrod

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an amazing story. yet another argument for 2 in the chest, 1 in the head. of course, you can't always be that picky with your shots.

jf
 

seasoned

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This is a long article and very good analyses worth reading (more than once) all the way to the end. The mindset discussed pertains to all that engage in action professions and any that find themselves in personal combat.

http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-articles/articles/lom/0412/the_peter_soulis_incident.html;jsessionid=10BDC02F0CF4D0B083E43EA06A47B949pital



Warmest Regards
Brian King

Thank you for sharing this story. At any point during this encounter, if officer Soulis would have given up, he would not have made it. This is something that may never happen in most peoples lifes, but is thought about often by those sworn to defend. His training, and that warrior spirit within him, allowed him, to make that critical decision to put all else second and focus completely on stopping Palmer, and in doing so, he saved many lives.
 

searcher

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an amazing story. yet another argument for 2 in the chest, 1 in the head. of course, you can't always be that picky with your shots.

jf


I will be happy with any on target that stop the threat.
 

Doc

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The officers name is not revealed for obvious reasons.

Officer Blank was monitoring traffic from a service station parking lot when he spotted a Toyota pull onto the lot with its lights off. The driver drove to a spot directly in Blank ' line of sight, turned the Toyota toward the street and stopped. Ignoring Blank, he sat eyes straight ahead, focused on the small strip mall across the street. It was almost midnight, and the only business still open in the mall was a sandwich shop.

Blank decided to investigate. The lot was dimly lit, so he left his headlights off as he pulled forward and stopped behind the Toyota. After angling his car to the left for cover, he logged out on his MDT, grabbed his heavy-duty flashlight, and stepped out into the cool night air. The driver never took his eyes off the strip mall.

Blank, a safety-conscious, 38-year-old officer with 11 years on the job, worked for a large metropolitan police department in a city with more than its share of violent crime, but the driver didn't look like a troublemaker and appeared only to be drunk. Still, Blank knew better than to take anything for granted. Waiting to turn the flashlight on until he got closer, he cautiously moved to a spot about 10 feet behind the Toyota.

Suddenly, the driver lunged to his right and down. Without conscious thought, Blank drew his guna .40 caliber Glock 22as he moved to his left and shined the light into the car. "Show me your hands!" he shouted.

Slowly and without looking at Blank, the driver sat up and raised his hands. He didn't say a word as he kept his eyes riveted straight ahead.

At Blank ' command, the man slowly exited the car with both hands in full view. Blank was now standing well off to the left of the Toyota with his flashlight aimed into its front seat. Glancing past the driver, he spotted a beer lying on its side on the floorboard, its contents foaming out onto the carpet. He relaxed a little at the sight of the open beer, but kept his guard up.

Blank kept his light on the driver as he re-holstered and ordered him to come to him. Obediently, the driver stepped forward and handed Blank his driver's license. After frisking the man for weapons and finding none, Blank checked the license and identified the driver as Tim Palmer, a 27-year-old from a small town located many miles from there.
"What are you doing on this lot?" Blank asked.

Palmer started fidgeting as he replied that he was waiting for some friends and had stopped to use the station's pay phone. Blank knew that was a lie. Palmer had never gone near the pay phone.

He decided to run him for warrants but suspected he might take off on foot. After ordering Palmer to return to his car, he walked backwards to his cruiser, sat down, and tried to run him on his MDT. But NCIC was down, so there wasn't much he could do. He decided to ask for permission to search the Toyota and take it from there.

In the meantime, he noticed Palmer was nervously glancing around in every direction as he sat waiting in the Toyota. Although not particularly alarmed, Blank didn't like what he saw. Becoming increasingly convinced that Palmer intended to run, he lit up the car with his spotlight, headlights and takedown lights.

At first, Palmer turned away from the blazing light, but then he adjusted his inside mirror and fixed his eyes on Blank. Now even more distrustful of Palmer, Blank opened his door to start his approach, only to see Palmer's door also swinging open. Moving quickly to make contact before Palmer could run, Blank stepped out of his car and started forward.

He'd gone barely 10 feet when the alarm bells went off. No fear or panic, but his senses were crying out for greater caution, and he changed his approach. He circled around the back of his cruiser and moved up to the passenger side of the Toyota.

As he stopped alongside the car's right-rear fender and looked inside, every instinct told him Palmer was armed and waiting for him. The man was sitting behind the wheel, hunched forward with both feet firmly planted on the floorboard, his eyes glued to the mirror and his right hand thrust between his legs. His left arm was locked straight down along his left side, pressed down onto the floor next to the open driver's door as he readied himself to spring into action.

Blank's first thought was to go back to his car and call Palmer out, but he would have to retreat across open ground to do that. Confident his position gave him a solid tactical advantage, he drew his gun as he shouted, "Show me your hands, and get outta the car!"

Blank had planned to shoot through the back window if Palmer drew a weapon, but for reasons he still doesn't fully understand, he moved forward and to his right, stopping alongside the passenger door, not more than two feet from the window. Instantly, he realized he'd made a grievous blunder. Grinning with blood lust, Palmer lunged across the seat and shoved a Smith & Wesson Sigma up into firing position. Before Blank could react, the S&W barked flame, driving a 9mm solidly into the center of his chest. The impact knocked Blank back slightly, but his vest stopped the bullet.

Palmer was out of the Toyota a split-second later, firing the gun at him over the roof. There was no other cover nearby, so Blank went down onto one knee behind the front fender to put the Toyota between them. But, at the same instant, two rounds crashed through his left arm, one just above the wrist and the other dead center on the forearm. Another struck him in the left thigh, although he wouldn't become aware of it until later.

Blank was shooting back now, pumping rounds through the windshield into his assailant. Palmer went down immediately, and Blank used the opportunity to seek better cover. The only decent cover nearby was his patrol car, so he started backpedaling in that direction, Glock at the ready and eyes scanning for Palmer's return as he moved. Then, spotting the cruiser out of the corner of one eye, he turned and started to sprint toward it. He had barely completed the turn when Palmer opened fire again. One round missed, but another tore through his left shoulder and exited his left bicep. He kept moving until he reached the back of the car, where he dropped to one knee and got back into the fight.

Palmer was scurrying back and forth down the driver's side of the Toyota, shrieking with rage and stopping sporadically to fire, but Blank was more patient. He held his fire, waited for Palmer's head to pop into view, and then took a shot each time it appeared. Although Blank knew he was getting hits, Palmer seemed impervious to his gunfire.

Blank was also becoming apprehensive about his wounds. The bullet hole in his left wrist was an ugly, swollen mess that made him wonder if he would have enough dexterity to reload, and the one in his thigh was spewing blood all over the back of his cruiser. Believing his femoral artery had been hit, he pressed his left hand down over the wound, but that only caused the blood to shoot out another, previously unseen bullet hole. He feared he would bleed out before he could stop Palmer.

Blank also heard a woman screaming across the street, leading him to believe he may have hit a bystander. He later learned she'd only been screaming in fear, but at the time he could only think of having hurt one of his citizens, and the idea angered him. It also had an unexpected effectit made him focus on the importance of stopping Palmer before someone else got hurt.

With these thoughts came an unexpected calm, followed by a new resolve. Up to this point, he'd been fighting a commendable, though primarily defensive battle. But now, infused with the realization that Palmer had to be stopped and that only he could do it, he went on the offensive. Now the predator, he resolved that Palmer would never leave the parking lot, even if he had to take more hits to stop him.

Blank's gun wasn't empty yet, but he knew better than to take the offensive without reloading. As he ejected the partially empty magazine and slapped in a fresh one, he saw something he hadn't expected. Apparently, Palmer had seen the ejected magazine hit the ground and assumed Blank had either collapsed or run out of ammo. He left the cover of the Toyota, and advanced toward Blank . Unaware that he was approaching a conscious and fully armed police officer who knew how to capitalize on an opportunity like this, Palmer walked toward the cruiser. Blank waited patiently, tracking the man's approach by watching his feet under the cruiser.

Palmer hesitated when he reached the cruiser's right-front fender, as if to consider moving over to the driver's side. Blank knew he'd have trouble tracking Palmer if he came around that way, so he decided to make his move without delay. He lunged out from behind the car, thrust the Glock up into firing position, and opened fire. His first two rounds hit Palmer center chest, rocking him back on his heels. Palmer flinched as two more rounds hit center mass, and then started backpedaling toward the Toyota. He was still holding his gun, but never raised it to fire.

After reaching the car, Palmer dove over the trunk and dropped out of sight. Blank paused, and then cautiously started forward again. As he moved closer, he spotted Palmer crawling up into the Toyota's front seat and starting the engine.

Blank stopped and fired two rounds through the back window. The first missed, but the second hit Palmer in the upper back, driving his head forward into the steering wheel. That seemed to have done the trick, but then Palmer sat up again, dropped the transmission into reverse, and started backing up. With no time to ponder how Palmer had absorbed so many hits, Blank took aim and emptied the magazine into his assailant.

Palmer rolled over to his right and dropped the gearshift lever into drive, causing the car to lunge forward into a chain link fence a few feet away, where it came to a stop. After watching Palmer long enough to make sure he didn't get up again, Blank called for backup and waited for help to arrive.

Remarkably, Palmer had taken 22 hits from Blank's .40-caliber Glock, 17 of which had hit center mass. Despite the fact that the weapon had been loaded with Ranger SXTsconsidered by many to be one of the best man-stoppers availablePalmer lived for more than four minutes after the last shot was fired. His autopsy revealed nothing more than a small amount of alcohol in his bloodstream. Although Blank could not have known it, Palmer was wanted for murder in a neighboring state.
 

MA-Caver

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I'd thought I'd tangled with some kind of terminator after the first clip... sheesh. The officer made some critical mistakes but the amount of ammo pumped into the suspect wasn't one of them.

Photo of the SXT bullet after it hits a target... yuck, food-processor is an apt name for it.
 

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arnisador

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It looks like a shuriken! Sheesh, that's a horror-movie amount of damage to take and keep on going. A good reminder of why structural damage beats pain in (empty-hand) self-defense--a broken leg is a better show-stopper than a bloody nose.
 

Cryozombie

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I recently read an FBI study on Balistics from the late 80s and the section about the lack of stopping power caused by pain in a "combat" situiation, and the importance of getting hits with ammo that will minimize the amount of time the bad guy has to respond after being hit.

This story is an excellent example of that in practice.
 

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It looks like a shuriken! Sheesh, that's a horror-movie amount of damage to take and keep on going. A good reminder of why structural damage beats pain in (empty-hand) self-defense--a broken leg is a better show-stopper than a bloody nose.

Unfortunately, this is not unusual. Police are taught to fire center mass. Under those circumstances I would have used the "failure drill," and began firing at his melon. Destroy the computer, and the keyboard ceases to function.

It's the old argument of shot placement versus kinetic energy dispersal. With the right placement, almost any ammo will do. Without it, and ammo may prove deficient, unless you break something he needs to function.

I've seen guys take multiple hits from a shotgun, get knocked down, and still get up and run only to be found bled out later.
 

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There's always the old gunfighter's technique. Aim for the belt buckle and move up from there.
 

KenpoTex

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I was going to post something on this story but hadn't gotten to it yet...

Bottom line as I see it is that this story just reinforces the fact that pistols are lousy fight stoppers. Pistols poke holes, that's it...if you don't put 'em right through the heart, aorta, spine, or brain you're probably not going to accomplish anything.

wonder how long it'll be before someone on this forum makes a comment like: "it would have worked if he had used a .45/.357/whatever" :rolleyes:
 

searcher

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I have to agree that shot placement is extremely important, but in the heat of the encounter, I am only worrying about finding my front sight and make sure it is on the target. As much as I would like to say somehting witty like, "Two in the body and one in the head," when getting shot at, I am not going to be that focused on pinpoint accuracy. I don't care how many shots it takes as long as I have enough to get the job done.

And I agree with Tex, my handgun is not my first choice for a fight stopper, but ont he street, I don't find it very feasible to carry my 870 or M4. Not to mention that here in KS we have CCH not CCW. My 870 is my go to in my house. #4 buckshot works much better than a 230gr .45acp round.
 

Tames D

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Great story and well told. What was the timeline on this gunfight? In other words, how long did the battle last?
 

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More handgun shooting incidents are stopped by a single center mass shot then not. A few people (Marshall, Sanow, and Fuller) had done some controversial research on the subject, where they looked at incidents around the country and compiled a % that ended in a single shot with a particular round. What made it controversial was the idea of one round is better then another because that round had only a 92% "one stop shot" ratio, while the other round had 95%. And that round over there had only an 82% ratio, so it must be completely worthless, and so on.

Trying to put one bullet against another based on those stats was a useless endeavor because of all the other variables involved (placement on the torso, size/health of person, etc.) made it uncontrolled and therefore unscientific.

However, the fact was that most of the rounds that people use for self-defense were all above 80 and 90 percent if I remember correctly (this was published in a book so I am going by memory). What this does tell us is that a significantly large % of these fights are ending with ONE SHOT. With 2 or 3 shots calculated, the amount of people still fighting are likely almost statistically insignificant. With this data, we can conclude that handguns are indeed effective show stoppers.

But the 80 or so % of fights that ended with one shot in a given year don't grab our attention; what does grab our attention is the few isolated incidents where a person is shot multiple times to the point of ridiculousness before going down. Hell, that grabs my attention too.

So what do these isolated incidents tell us?

What incidences like these reinforce to me is that there are no sure things in a fight. And surly, if a .22, .380, 9mm, .45, 5.56, 7.62, .57, or (insert favorite round here) isn't a sure thing in a fight, then my palm strike, elbow, knife slash, flying side kick, or chi ball isn't going to be a sure thing either.

Just a reminder not to stop fighting until it's over, and never rely on 1 magic totem to get the job done ('like, if he takes me to the ground, I'll just bit em...'), that's all...

C.

PS. He really would have been better off with a .45 though... lol JK ;)
 

KenpoTex

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And I agree with Tex, my handgun is not my first choice for a fight stopper, but ont he street, I don't find it very feasible to carry my 870 or M4. ...
Exactly...handguns are a compromise weapon that we carry because they're easier to conceal and more comfortable to tote around than the long guns.

What incidences like these reinforce to me is that there are no sure things in a fight. And surly, if a .22, .380, 9mm, .45, 5.56, 7.62, .57, or (insert favorite round here) isn't a sure thing in a fight, then my palm strike, elbow, knife slash, flying side kick, or chi ball isn't going to be a sure thing either.
exactly...


Cruentus said:
PS. He really would have been better off with a .45 though... lol JK ;)
******* :D
 

Carol

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MA-Caver

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There's always the old gunfighter's technique. Aim for the belt buckle and move up from there.
Or lower... that'll change anyone's mind I think... :lol:

Far as "hitting the melon" I think it can be agreed that is a difficult shot at best ... particularly at a moving target and one that is shooting back... not saying it CAN'T be done... just ain't as easy as some might think.
Ok, no, I'm not speaking from personal experience but putting some thawt into it, I'm guessing that what it is-- a hard shot to take, but I could be wrong. Still it's better to go for center mass because that is the biggest target anyone can present to you. If you got a head shot on someone who isn't moving around much then yeah, take it, shut down that CPU and they're usually outta the game.
I'm sure the thought must've crossed the officer's mind once or twice during that gun fight... in fact I think he was trying for one when he was down and changing mags and the suspect was peering over the fender of the car and he was taking shots everytime the guy's head appeared... which sorta helps prove my point.
 

sgtmac_46

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Torso hits from handguns don't work that fast....even a hit to the aorta won't necessarily bring incapacitation as fast as we need it in a gun fight. The best we can hope for a torso hit is to sever the spinal column. Because of that we repeat as needed until we finally poke enough holes and the suspect stops doing whatever he did to make us shoot him in the first place. Handgun bullets don't work....so keep shooting until you find one that does......

......then expect the inevitable morons to yell 'Why did they have shoot him so many times?'......but there is no proof against fools.






.......but if it had been a .500 super-mag it would have stopped him in one hit!

That was for Kenpo! ;)
 

tellner

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The very best advice I ever heard about handguns in self defense is:

The only thing you can count on that pistol doing is putting holes in him at range. You'll be better off in the knife fight you were going to get into anyway.
 

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