Kata

[Phil_n.ireland]

How important is kata ?does it actually
Benefit you in learning and applying your style or is it just traditional, also any tips on practicing your art at home without a partner, I'm not talking about striking pads etc I'm talking about juijitsu technics


If size mattered the elephant would be king of the jungle

 

[GaryR]

An article I wrote on Kata can be found here http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/107949-What-s-Wrong-With-Kata?highlight=

As for practicing without a partner, it is very, very limited. I would say especially as far as jujitsu goes. With JJ I almost wouldn't bother. Find a training partner, or don't expect to be able to use anything practically.

Best of luck.

G

 

[Aiki Lee]

That varies on the system being studied but overall kata is very important. The essence of the art is passed on through kata as examples of the art. If done properly one kata should adequately express the art in study.

 

[K-man]

As GaryR has posted above, this is the link to a very good thread with in depth discussion. What it demonstrates is that there is a big difference of opinion between, for example, GaryR and myself. This doesn't mean one side is right and the other side is wrong. If you read GaryR's article it is probably true in 95% of karate schools. But there are other schools that recognise the true value of kata and teach in that way.

The question to be asked is this. In the times when martial arts training was life or death, why would kata be taught at all if it wasn't essential for the survival of the practitioner?

And, as Gary said, practising alone is difficult. I do practise kata at home but what I do as I work through the kata is visualise an opponent. That is not something you can do when you are beginning and it is not something you can do until you know the kata inside out. But, it is something that makes training much more interesting and relevant, particularly as you get older. :asian:

 

[Cyriacus]

In my opinion, Kata is great if its actually being taught as something useful. If it isnt, if its just 'a thing you do', you seriously dont need it. For example, if you learn your kata just to pass your belt test, its useless to you. If you learn your kata for a kata competition, its a sporty thing to learn, like football, or judo*. If you learn your kata for using the thing, low and behold, youll get something you can use without needing to alter and adapt it to get something that may or may not be useful.

*And before anyone jumps on me, what i mean is, you need to tweak your judo a bit to use it outside of judo. Even if you dont do it consciously. Its a similar principle.

 

[sopraisso]

In the most traditional styles of karate, kata is the main and most important source of martial knowledge from the various systems of fighting contained in the art. If you learn to understand the lessons contained in kata (that is related to kata analysis, widely known as bunkai), you will see a big importance on it.

But as K-man said, 95% of schools today don't really use kata in such a way. In that case, you won't really have such a big reason to care about it.

Another problem that I believe to happen today is that most movements in kata and their understating have been so diluted over generations of practitioners and versions that today more often than not your kata will have very little resemblance with what they were back in the time when karate had a much more practical approach to fighting. This makes understanding the strategy, techniques, tactics and principles contained in karate a much harder task. Even so, if someone asks me today where I get the (humble nonetheless) martial knowledge I have, I could say it is all in the kata I learned.

One last thing: if you look for MMA/sport fighting stuff in kata, you should be careful not to make mistakes: kata is all about self-defense, which is a completely different animal (but not everyone underrated/realizes the difference).

Enviado de meu GT-I9300 usando o Tapatalk 2

 

[Chris Parker]

How important is kata ?

Well, the first thing to do is to define what you're meaning when you say "kata".... it's not quite as clear-cut as you might think. For instance, I, personally, have quite a different form of kata in mind than many... and, honestly, it's a more accurate usage of the term (taking into account the culture and language the word comes from).

But, to answer the question, it depends on your art. For those that use it, it's indispensable.

does it actually benefit you in learning and applying your style or is it just traditional?

Why would you think they are different, or separated?

also any tips on practicing your art at home without a partner, I'm not talking about striking pads etc I'm talking about juijitsu technics

Sure. Talk to your instructor about home training tips. They'll know what you can do, what your form of jujutsu has (it's far too broad a term to give anything definite as an answer here), what drills or exercises are useful, and so on.

An article I wrote on Kata can be found here http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/107949-What-s-Wrong-With-Kata?highlight=

Yeah... look, as others said in that thread, that article shows a huge lack of insight or understanding about kata and other training methods.

As for practicing without a partner, it is very, very limited. I would say especially as far as jujitsu goes. With JJ I almost wouldn't bother. Find a training partner, or don't expect to be able to use anything practically.

Best of luck.

G

And, again, this is something I'd completely disagree with (the idea of "I almost wouldn't bother" is anathema to development, really). Quite bad advice.

 

[DennisBreene]

In the most traditional styles of karate, kata is the main and most important source of martial knowledge from the various systems of fighting contained in the art. If you learn to understand the lessons contained in kata (that is related to kata analysis, widely known as bunkai), you will see a big importance on it.

But as K-man said, 95% of schools today don't really use kata in such a way. In that case, you won't really have such a big reason to care about it.

Another problem that I believe to happen today is that most movements in kata and their understating have been so diluted over generations of practitioners and versions that today more often than not your kata will have very little resemblance with what they were back in the time when karate had a much more practical approach to fighting. This makes understanding the strategy, techniques, tactics and principles contained in karate a much harder task. Even so, if someone asks me today where I get the (humble nonetheless) martial knowledge I have, I could say it is all in the kata I learned.

One last thing: if you look for MMA/sport fighting stuff in kata, you should be careful not to make mistakes: kata is all about self-defense, which is a completely different animal (but not everyone underrated/realizes the difference).

Enviado de meu GT-I9300 usando o Tapatalk 2

It saddens me to see the loss of emphasis on kata. There are so many depths of knowledge to be gained from dedicated practice and study of kata. It is not merely the training of stance, balance and movement of the beginner. As Mr. Parker stated, the bunkai of kata teaches you the breadth of the art. I also believe that concentrated study and practice of kata leads to a focused state of mind and is almost meditative.

 

[rframe]

As for practicing without a partner, it is very, very limited. I would say especially as far as jujitsu goes. With JJ I almost wouldn't bother. Find a training partner, or don't expect to be able to use anything practically.

Interesting perspective. Helio Gracie actually taught Chuck Norris to practice BJJ in a form of kata, as an adaptation to keep his skills up as he aged.

http://www.gracieacademy.com/news/chuck-norris-tells-his-jiu-jitsu-story.asp

 

[Sukerkin]

This is one of those questions that surfaces every now and again, usually prompted by a misunderstanding of what kata training is and what it is for. It's also seems to usually be brought up by young men who don't actually want to practice but that's a whole other discussion :lol:.

A lot has been spoken of with regard to kata, the most productive arc being that the kata is the toolbox and manual of an art whilst sparring (whatever form it takes) is the exploration of applications of those tools and that knowledge when conditions are flowing and imperfect.

For me, being a musician as well as a swordsman, kata is the bedrock of everything in a martial art; for it is the perfection of scales, chord shapes and rhythm set within the developing limits of your knowledge of music. You can't improvise (and still make music) without first knowing the forms and being able to execute them at will.

 

[GaryR]

Well, the first thing to do is to define what you're meaning when you say "kata".... it's not quite as clear-cut as you might think. For instance, I, personally, have quite a different form of kata in mind than many... and, honestly, it's a more accurate usage of the term (taking into account the culture and language the word comes from).

But, to answer the question, it depends on your art. For those that use it, it's indispensable.

The definitions are as broad as the practice and use itself. How is your "form of kata" different than the rest? How is it a more accurate use of the term? I think those answers may actually answer the OP question instead of just being conclusory conjecture.

Yeah... look, as others said in that thread, that article shows a huge lack of insight or understanding about kata and other training methods.

Not a lack of understanding at all, simply the reality of it as it applies to the overwhelming majority. As K-man said, that article applies to 95% of people doing kata. Would you disagree with that statement? Do we have any reason to suspect the OP's school is among the 5% exception? Or that you are among that 5% exception for that matter?

And, again, this is something I'd completely disagree with (the idea of "I almost wouldn't bother" is anathema to development, really). Quite bad advice.

For the sake of clarification--When I think JJ I think mainly locks/throws, and grappling. Solo practice is better spent doing other things than grappling yourself. For a newb to attempt to learn JJ skill through solo practice is just delusional, it's not going to happen. One needs to prioritize their training methods by efficacy and efficiency, to grapple oneself as a use of your spare time is anathema to development.

Cheers,

G

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

tips on practicing your art at home without a partner.

Kata is for teaching and learning. It's not for training. Drills are for training. You can create a set of "solo" drills (not from your Kata) that you can train home by yourself. The best "solo drills" are the "partner drills" without partner. For example,

if you want to train the striking art,

- kick to your opponent's groin,
- parry his leading arm,
- punch to his face.

That will be a simple 3 steps kick, block, punch combo. You can train this on your heavy bag or just do solo into the thin air.

If you want to train the throwing art, you can add:

- pull your punch back,
- wrap your opponent's leading arm,
- push his neck,
- back kick his leg/legs, and
- take him down.

That will be a simple 4 steps combo (all the moves after the 3rd step should be combined as 1 move). You can also train this on your striking dummy (shown below) of just do solo into the thin air.

http://imageshack.us/a/img801/6973/dummyg.jpg

This clip can also give you some idea.

 

[Cirdan]

Are drills important? Of course.

 

[WaterGal]

I haven't studied jujitsu, so I'm not sure how the self-defense techniques you do are generally taught. Do you guys do it as preset sequences - e.g., "attacker" does X grab/strike, and then "defender" does Y techniques to subdue them? If so, you can practice at least the footwork and general form of the sequence at home by yourself. It's not the same as with a partner, for obvious reasons, but it can at least help you memorize the moves more quickly.

 

[TKDTony2179]

It is a training tool and to most an ecyclopedia of information on stances, blocks, strikes, foot work, breathing, and joint locks. I think a lot of people only do it because of tradition but for me it was tool to use to learn my art.

I am sure grappling arts would be hard to do at home without a partner but I would think just practicing foot work hip postion, and arm or hand postion would be helpful to a grappler. Just sitting around thinking about wrist locks and remembering to grab the knife edge of the hand and putting your thumb in the right place of the back of your partner hand would be good to practice at home. May take some imagination though.

 

[Phil_n.ireland]

I haven't studied jujitsu, so I'm not sure how the self-defense techniques you do are generally taught. Do you guys do it as preset sequences - e.g., "attacker" does X grab/strike, and then "defender" does Y techniques to subdue them? If so, you can practice at least the footwork and general form of the sequence at home by yourself. It's not the same as with a partner, for obvious reasons, but it can at least help you memorize the moves more quickly.

Yes that's usually the way it works, the lower belts that I'm at most of it starts off with the attacker throwing a punch to the head or stomach and you block and perform your move, but as you move up you start countering throws and things too

 

[MJS]

How important is kata ?does it actually
Benefit you in learning and applying your style or is it just traditional, also any tips on practicing your art at home without a partner, I'm not talking about striking pads etc I'm talking about juijitsu technics


If size mattered the elephant would be king of the jungle

Some will be more in favor of kata than others, which is fine. All of the arts that I do, as well as one that I used to do, have kata, thus, I practice kata. Some will say that you're not going to fight in real life like you do in kata, which is a no brainer. Anyone who thinks that your opponents will be in the same exact spot, and you'll be able to perform as you would in kata, is living a dream..lol.

All kidding aside though, I do feel that it has some benefits, those being the techniques contained in the katas. Of course, in some cases, the teacher doesnt know the meaning of the applications, thus they can't teach it to their stidents, which results in the students going thru a series of moves, with no clue behind them. That happened to me, but I was fortunate to come across people who were able to show me the meaning, as well as doing some digging on my own.

So to answer your question on kata...I'd say again, it'll depend on the person.

As for training jujitsu on your own....no probably not. There are things in the arts that you can do without a partnet, ie: kata, punches, kicks, foot/stance work, but when it comes to the techs, sure you could do the motions in the air, but that works only to a point. You really need a live body to work with.

 

[Phil_n.ireland]

This is one of those questions that surfaces every now and again, usually prompted by a misunderstanding of what kata training is and what it is for. It's also seems to usually be brought up by young men who don't actually want to practice but that's a whole other discussion :lol:.

A lot has been spoken of with regard to kata, the most productive arc being that the kata is the toolbox and manual of an art whilst sparring (whatever form it takes) is the exploration of applications of those tools and that knowledge when conditions are flowing and imperfect.

For me, being a musician as well as a swordsman, kata is the bedrock of everything in a martial art; for it is the perfection of scales, chord shapes and rhythm set within the developing limits of your knowledge of music. You can't improvise (and still make music) without first knowing the forms and being able to execute them at will.

I absolutely do want to practice it but I want to know why I'm doing , when and how to do it so i can benefit from it, as I said I want to practice at home and kata is something can be done alone so I'm very keen

 

[Aiki Lee]

The definitions are as broad as thepractice and use itself. How is your "form of kata" different thanthe rest? How is it a more accurate use of the term? I think those answers mayactually answer the OP question instead of just being conclusory conjecture.

I’m not speaking for Chris, but I believe part of what hewas getting at is that in Japanese arts kata are not long sequences of solo routines but are instead choreographed exercises between partners meant to express a particular lesson. The Okinawan concept of kata in karate is not the same as kata in most JMA.

Not a lack of understanding at all, simply the reality ofit as it applies to the overwhelming majority. As K-man said, that articleapplies to 95% of people doing kata. Would you disagree with that statement? Dowe have any reason to suspect the OP's school is among the 5% exception? Orthat you are among that 5% exception for that matter?

The form of kata you are discussing in that thread(karate I believe) has not been properly trained by the majority of schools inmy opinion. Still there is nothing wrong with kata and it is important; it’sjust people don’t know what it is for and are turning it into something uselessas opposed to a cornerstone of the art.

For the sake of clarification--When I think JJ I thinkmainly locks/throws, and grappling. Solo practice is better spent doing other thingsthan grappling yourself. For a newb to attempt to learn JJ skill through solo practice is just delusional, it's not going to happen. One needs to prioritize their training methods by efficacy and efficiency, to grapple oneself as a use of your spare time is anathema to development.

People have already pointed out how footwork drills arean example of solo training in a JJ system. Don’t you ever shadow box? This would be the same thing and helps a person focus on moving smoothly. It certainly doesn’t replace paired exercises though.

Kata is for teaching andlearning. It's not for training. Drills are for training.

How can you learn something if you do not train it? Your comment doesn’t make sense to me. Kata in karate is meant as a way of expressing and passing on the art. Everything important in karate should be evident in the kata.

You can create a set of"solo" drills (not from your Kata) that you can train home byyourself. The best "solo drills" are the "partner drills"without partner

How is this in anyway different to a kata?

For example,

if you want to train the striking art,

- kick to your opponent's groin,
- parry his leading arm,
- punch to his face.

That will be a simple 3 steps kick, block, punch combo. You can train this onyour heavy bag or just do solo into the thin air.

If you want to train the throwing art, you can add:

- pull your punch back,
- wrap your opponent's leading arm,
- push his neck,
- back kick his leg/legs, and
- take him down.

These are just very short kata you have developed. There is no difference between kata and drills. A kata is a prearranged form of something. Anytime you work on something not spontaneous in martial arts, I would say you are doing something along the lines of a kata.

I haven't studied jujitsu, so I'mnot sure how the self-defense techniques you do are generally taught. Do youguys do it as preset sequences - e.g., "attacker" does X grab/strike,and then "defender" does Y techniques to subdue them?

These exercises when choreographed and meant to express a lesson are called kata in jujutsu.

 

[K-man]

I absolutely do want to practice it but I want to know why I'm doing , when and how to do it so i can benefit from it, as I said I want to practice at home and kata is something can be done alone so I'm very keen

it is not easy to find instructors who teach good kata application. To see what you are looking for check out Iain Abernethy, who has lots of good kata related material. Another good reference is 'The Way of Kata' by Lawrence Kane and Kris Wilder. :asian: