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Karazenpo
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- Thread Starter
- #82
This is an excerpt from KenpoJoe whom I deem is extremely knowledgable in history and tradition:
When, Prof. Cerio returned from his first visit with Prof. Chow in the 1960's, he was distressed because Chow's art was "so different" from what he had learned from George Pesare and others...
I'm going to try to give an anwer to this but again, it's my perspective and would most welcome comments from others.
Professor Cerio did not learn Chow's Kempo from Gm. Pesare. Mr. Pesare taught a direct Kajukenbo subsystem of Sijos Victor "Sonny' Gascon & the late Walter L.N. Godin-Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. The founding date of this art was 1960. It was a very powerful system based on Emperado's "Original Method' (Kempo Karate)- Kajukenbo. To the best of my knowledge and others, up to that time the Hawaian kempo being taught by Professor Chow, Mr. Parker, Sijo Adriano Emperado and others was essentially the kempo of James M. Mitose. I'm sure these men put a little spin on it to fit their own perspective at the time but the bulk of it is what Mitose taught Chow. If you look at the different books of that era you will see this relationship. Mr. Mitose's book, What is Self Defense? (Kenpo Jui Jitsu) was written in 1947 & published in 1953. Mr. Parker's book, Kenpo Karate: Law of the Fist & the Empty Hand in 1961. Mitose was very friendly with Gm. Robert Trias and they did train together, so most likely exchanged ideas and techniques. Mitose was known to practice and teach the Naihanchi Shodan kata of Trias's system. Trias' book The Hand is my Sword-1st printing in 1957 & 2nd in 1973. Check these books out and you will see for yourself the close similarities of technique. it is my feeling that it was sometime in the 60's that things changed. You can see it in the Master Bill Chun Sr.'s form of Hansuki-the signature rapid fire hand strikes. I do not believe that was around in the 50's as we see it today. It is said by Sijo Emperado that Chow made the old kempo faster but I wonder too if these early Filipino pioneers had something to do with it as Escrima is noted for this also. Anywhere, the original kempo of Kajukenbo was Mitose's Kempo, hense, Professor Cerio's comments quoted by KenpoJoe. Just like in the early kempo days, one, maybe two stunners or entry moves and one to two power strikes. Actually, that's pretty realistic, on the average but at times we all know it may take several more hits, takedowns, whatever it takes! To me kempo is like boxing-the rapid fire strikes are kempo's version of jabs, may take one, may take more and the power moves are just that, the finishing moves like the hook, uppercut, cross, etc. Look at the original Karazenpo forms, they do not have all that rapid fire striking of Hansuki but they were developed in the late 50's. If you look at Nick Cerio's Kenpo ( founded-1974) you will see many original Karazenpo techniques. Some modified, others like 'Sweeping Tiger' hardly at all changed. Some like 'Dance of Death' (this is not the same as Mr. Parker's) was a modified verion of an original Karazenpo combination, primarily by adding more rapid fire striking. This is my perspective but i would like to hear from others and if KenpoJoe can respond: Did Professor Cerio mention to you what the difference was? respectfully submitted, Shihan Joe Shuras
When, Prof. Cerio returned from his first visit with Prof. Chow in the 1960's, he was distressed because Chow's art was "so different" from what he had learned from George Pesare and others...
I'm going to try to give an anwer to this but again, it's my perspective and would most welcome comments from others.
Professor Cerio did not learn Chow's Kempo from Gm. Pesare. Mr. Pesare taught a direct Kajukenbo subsystem of Sijos Victor "Sonny' Gascon & the late Walter L.N. Godin-Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. The founding date of this art was 1960. It was a very powerful system based on Emperado's "Original Method' (Kempo Karate)- Kajukenbo. To the best of my knowledge and others, up to that time the Hawaian kempo being taught by Professor Chow, Mr. Parker, Sijo Adriano Emperado and others was essentially the kempo of James M. Mitose. I'm sure these men put a little spin on it to fit their own perspective at the time but the bulk of it is what Mitose taught Chow. If you look at the different books of that era you will see this relationship. Mr. Mitose's book, What is Self Defense? (Kenpo Jui Jitsu) was written in 1947 & published in 1953. Mr. Parker's book, Kenpo Karate: Law of the Fist & the Empty Hand in 1961. Mitose was very friendly with Gm. Robert Trias and they did train together, so most likely exchanged ideas and techniques. Mitose was known to practice and teach the Naihanchi Shodan kata of Trias's system. Trias' book The Hand is my Sword-1st printing in 1957 & 2nd in 1973. Check these books out and you will see for yourself the close similarities of technique. it is my feeling that it was sometime in the 60's that things changed. You can see it in the Master Bill Chun Sr.'s form of Hansuki-the signature rapid fire hand strikes. I do not believe that was around in the 50's as we see it today. It is said by Sijo Emperado that Chow made the old kempo faster but I wonder too if these early Filipino pioneers had something to do with it as Escrima is noted for this also. Anywhere, the original kempo of Kajukenbo was Mitose's Kempo, hense, Professor Cerio's comments quoted by KenpoJoe. Just like in the early kempo days, one, maybe two stunners or entry moves and one to two power strikes. Actually, that's pretty realistic, on the average but at times we all know it may take several more hits, takedowns, whatever it takes! To me kempo is like boxing-the rapid fire strikes are kempo's version of jabs, may take one, may take more and the power moves are just that, the finishing moves like the hook, uppercut, cross, etc. Look at the original Karazenpo forms, they do not have all that rapid fire striking of Hansuki but they were developed in the late 50's. If you look at Nick Cerio's Kenpo ( founded-1974) you will see many original Karazenpo techniques. Some modified, others like 'Sweeping Tiger' hardly at all changed. Some like 'Dance of Death' (this is not the same as Mr. Parker's) was a modified verion of an original Karazenpo combination, primarily by adding more rapid fire striking. This is my perspective but i would like to hear from others and if KenpoJoe can respond: Did Professor Cerio mention to you what the difference was? respectfully submitted, Shihan Joe Shuras
OP
kidkarate
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- Thread Starter
- #83
Regarding learning the forms of Kara-Ho and it's names, those are all federally protected titles and forms unless it has been changed at least 60%. My instructor told me he saw the federal copyright papers (he has no reason to lie) and so if this is so, your system could have a law suit coming. Also my understanding (I have not learned all of them yet) but Kwai Sun Kata is for yellow belt. Kata Set II is for advanced purple, Hoshi is for Brown belt and Combo is for sho-dan. Then it goes up from there and they teach 16 different weapons forms with 3 katas for each weapon. After sho-dan there are techniques against 6-10 attackers and then they even have 11-15 attackers and I have seen them on demonstrations and been an uki once for my instructor in Montana and I don't like that portion of these techniques and wow, it is unlike you have ever seen before, totally impressive and also the weapons forms are very dynamic. My instructor in Montana competes with them all the time and take grandchampion for the Montana State Games and I know that Sensei Ka'imi Kuoha (Grandmaster Kuoha's daughter) just took grandchampion at a big Southern California tournament with real tough competitation.
Someone wrote that the Kara-Ho Books are not worth the price, but I have them both and if I wanted to know what Kara-Ho was all about, they certainly gave me more of an insight about what they teach and how. By the way that is the price that the company listed them for. There is a tape relating to the history and it is awesome, but I think you have to order them through Kwai Sun Company and the last time I got mine (last year) it was sold for $29.95 plus shipping and it has allot of techniques from when Professor Chow was alive and how these techniques are shown today after the innovation by Professor Chow and Grandmaster Kuoha in the early 80's. You can write to [email protected] for info on the books or the tapes.
Someone wrote that the Kara-Ho Books are not worth the price, but I have them both and if I wanted to know what Kara-Ho was all about, they certainly gave me more of an insight about what they teach and how. By the way that is the price that the company listed them for. There is a tape relating to the history and it is awesome, but I think you have to order them through Kwai Sun Company and the last time I got mine (last year) it was sold for $29.95 plus shipping and it has allot of techniques from when Professor Chow was alive and how these techniques are shown today after the innovation by Professor Chow and Grandmaster Kuoha in the early 80's. You can write to [email protected] for info on the books or the tapes.
OP
kidkarate
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- Thread Starter
- #84
I asked my instructor from Montana what the difference between Professor Chow and Grandmaster Kuoha's Kara-Ho Kempo system is and he said that it is one and the same. Professor Chow in the late 70's to early 80's saw a need to add different things to his system. He watched Kuoha do flying kicks from his training in Tae Kwon Do and then took those high kicks, which has never before seen in Kara-Ho and change the phsics of how to do these kicks, which made it stronger, faster and using Ki. My instructor said he spoke to several people that knew both men including Dr. Perry, his personal friend, physician and advisor and he said there was no changes without Professor Chow's acknowledgement and he said that is why Kuoha was chosen as the next leader of Kara-Ho because Professor Chow felt that Kuoha would keep the system intact. In all of the magazines that has written about Grandmaster Kuoha, he always states in these articles that Kara-Ho Kempo is and will always be Professor Chow's and he is only the caretaker of that system until it changes hands at his death. Everyone knows that his daughter, Sensei Ka'imi will be the next leader and she is an awesome teacher as well as a leader( she is very heavy in the film business). What I have been told is that Grandmaster has an older daughter from his first marriage that was promoted to sho-dan by Professor Chow, himself but she doesn't train. I know that he has a son also that doesn't train but he has a younger brother who is a cop in San Diego for sometime now who trains with Grandmaster. Most of his black belts are in law enforcement agencies and many of them head the SWAT teams for their respective departments. I have met Grnadmaster Kuoha's bodyguard and he is a former Sgt/Maj of the 1st recons Marine corps and taught all the recons from California and he is now in law enforcement and he is a very tough person, but super nice, unless you get him mad, I guess.
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kidkarate
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- Thread Starter
- #85
Please read message by kidkarate in regards to Kara-Ho.
Nonsense. If this is true, I'll go down to the police station and register my hands as deadly weapons.
OP
Shiatsu
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- Thread Starter
- #87
You can't copyright a martial arts style, just ask Lou Cassamassa of Red Dragon Karate.:rofl:
Kidkarate,
Who do you study under?
I've met most of the Kara-Ho instructors in Wyoming and Montana, mostly from when they used to compete against us at tournaments.
Lamont
Who do you study under?
I've met most of the Kara-Ho instructors in Wyoming and Montana, mostly from when they used to compete against us at tournaments.
Lamont
OP
Shiatsu
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #89
Do you compete in the EKL?
Yes, though I don't make it down to Salt Lake much. I consistently attend Mr. Crews' EKL Missoula tournament, and our school hosts the EKL Wyoming tournament in May. I usually hit the April Salt Lake tournament as a warm up for our home tournament. It is a rare year that I attend more than three tournaments.
Our school has a small tournament team that regularly hits the EKL circuit.
I actually really like the EKL, it has really toned down the stupid politics that usually go on at tournaments. One of the reasons I don't make SLC tournaments much is a holdover from about 5 years ago, when the political crap in SLC was unbelievable, that was when we were still NBL/SKI affiliated. It is much better now.
Lamont
Our school has a small tournament team that regularly hits the EKL circuit.
I actually really like the EKL, it has really toned down the stupid politics that usually go on at tournaments. One of the reasons I don't make SLC tournaments much is a holdover from about 5 years ago, when the political crap in SLC was unbelievable, that was when we were still NBL/SKI affiliated. It is much better now.
Lamont
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Shiatsu
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- Thread Starter
- #91
Well Ron Bennett is still there so that is enough to stay away, I have never met a bigger *** in the martial arts. I do like the Cox's and Roark however, they have great competitors, I think your school has the older gentleman that always competes in self defense correct? He is fun to watch.:asian:
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Kempo Guy
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- Thread Starter
- #92
Sam Kuoha did copywrite the names Kara-Ho and Kwai Sun as it pertains to his system. I have seen the documents.
As for Sam Kuoha and Prof. Chow's Kempo being the one and the same... well, that has not been my experience.
KG
As for Sam Kuoha and Prof. Chow's Kempo being the one and the same... well, that has not been my experience.
KG
OP
CoolKempoDude
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- Thread Starter
- #93
are these karaho instructors any good ????
I've got to support Kempo Guy on this. The Kwai Sun Co. Inc. has registered the name "Kara-Ho" and the various "names" of the techniques. That is why you don't see any other schools using the name "Kara-ho".
This is something that is possible in martial arts where the names are not old enough to become "public domain". Names like "karate", "kung fu", "kenpo", etc can no longer be copywrited. In our case the name "Kajukenbo" has been a registered trademark with the State of Hawaii since 1960.
This is something that is possible in martial arts where the names are not old enough to become "public domain". Names like "karate", "kung fu", "kenpo", etc can no longer be copywrited. In our case the name "Kajukenbo" has been a registered trademark with the State of Hawaii since 1960.
In general, YES.
I can believe registering (not copyrighting) the name. This is not uncommon for the style, though I haven't heard of it for forms within the style before.
I cannot believe that the same could be done for the kata, or that a lawsuit over a "stolen kata" could be successful.
I cannot believe that the same could be done for the kata, or that a lawsuit over a "stolen kata" could be successful.
I'm going to start a new thread on the 'copyright a form' as there seems to be enough interest. I archived a relevant discussion a few years ago from the usenet rec.martial-arts newsgroup (a public discussion group searchable on google) that sums this up neatly. The topic covers a few martial arts, so it's not completely relevant here, but is an interesting side discussion.
Matt
OP
CoolKempoDude
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- Thread Starter
- #98
does it mean they win many trophies there????
did you have a chance to compete one of them???
Sounds like it'd be mighty hard to copyright a kata.
I also wouldn't want to be the judge deciding if the kata was changed only 59% or a whole 61%!
I also wouldn't want to be the judge deciding if the kata was changed only 59% or a whole 61%!
