Kara-Ho Kenpo?

Originally posted by Pacificshore
what politics and other things :confused:
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this is a good question. I'm like you:confused: :confused:

wonder why i said "politic and other things" ??? i'm guessing;)
 
I want to believe in what people have to say BUT Nobody understands what was going on in this karaho thing because it is very complex and involves politics and other things.
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When people (and often their pride) are involved, it always becomes complicated.

Sam Kuoha has the paper work to back up his claim, so I don't know what's complicated about that... I personally don't dispute this claim, however what he teaches is not pure Kara Ho. He acknowledges this as well.

I think where it gets complicated perhaps is that others feel that Sam Kuoha's art has deviated from Kara Ho enough that it has become a separate art far (or further) removed from the techniques taught by Prof. Chow. I think that really is the only (or the main) point of contention.

KG
 
Originally posted by Kempo Guy
When people (and often their pride) are involved, it always becomes complicated.

Sam Kuoha has the paper work to back up his claim, so I don't know what's complicated about that... I personally don't dispute this claim, however what he teaches is not pure Kara Ho. He acknowledges this as well.

I think where it gets complicated perhaps is that others feel that Sam Kuoha's art has deviated from Kara Ho enough that it has become a separate art far (or further) removed from the techniques taught by Prof. Chow. I think that really is the only (or the main) point of contention.

KG
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The funny thing is everyone will hold to their opinion as to what Professor Chow's art was, is, or should be. It is the same way with Parker's Kenpo. There are so many Grandmasters of that particular system, and all believe in what, or how Parker's Kenpo should be, or has become. It falls back to the philosophy of growth and one's own vision of their art. Is this wrong?? In my opinion, I don't think so. However, there's still in-fighting amongst many of the Parker factions. So, how is this good for Parker's system? It's no wonder why many don't hang around with each other, and why should they when all the negativity just stifles one's growth in the system. Again my 2 cents.....................
 
Originally posted by Kempo Guy


Sam Kuoha's art has deviated from Kara Ho enough that it has become a separate art far (or further) removed from the techniques taught by Prof. Chow. I think that really is the only (or the main) point of contention.

KG
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Agree
 
Kempo Guy

Ask Sam were was he when Prof. Chow started using the name and teaching Kara-Ho in Nanakuli the west side of Oahu in a small church.
 
Originally posted by Grasshoppah
Kempo Guy

Ask Sam were was he when Prof. Chow started using the name and teaching Kara-Ho in Nanakuli the west side of Oahu in a small church.
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if anybody here knows the answer for this question, please let us know here.

we begin to explorer DEEPER and DEEPER and i like that.

keep all good stuff coming. Grasshoppah , if you know the answer, please don't keep us waiting so long.

thanks:)
 
The only thing I can comment on is this. Has anyone ever trained with or took a seminar from Master Bill Chun Jr.? I took a two day seminar with him and a friend of mine studies from him. I have also communicated with him on the net. He was personable, friendly & helpful and very powerful. From my brief association with him, I like him. What he teaches is exactly what I expected from everything I've read about and heard about William Chow. Imho, it is Chow's Kempo. Now, hey, I have no problem with the current grandmaster of Kara-ho as he was a brother police officer, decorated in the line of duty and an obviously highly skilled martial artist. He does admit his art of Kara-ho is now an 'eclectic' blend of several arts, many are doing that now and since he has the legal documentation to head Kara-ho then I don't think there is any question about it. I do understand the confusion, though. When I first saw Gm. Sam Kuoha perform Kara-ho with all those jump and turning kicks, I thought Professor Chow never did that, what's up? Then I saw Master Bill Chun and thought, that's Kara-ho but now I have a better insight as to what is going on. I still prefer, and its my preference only, the Goshinjitsu Kai Chinese Kempo of the Chow/Chun connection. As to me, that is the original stuff. Respectfully submitted.
 
Originally posted by Karazenpo
Has anyone ever trained with or took a seminar from Master Bill Chun Jr.? I took a two day seminar with him and a friend of mine studies from him.
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this is certainly interesting and fascinating. I have seen a lot of big names in kempo/kenpo BUT not this individual.

i ran a google search and can see he has a lot of seminars with Nick Cerios's students.

How was his seminar????

You mentioned some people in your profiles and posts. I guess your friend was Nick Cerio's student ???????

don't forget to tell us more;)
 
Hey CoolKempoDude, hope all is well! Master Bill Chun Sr. and his son, Master Bill Chun Jr. were very, very close to Professor Chow. When Professor Cerio first wanted to study with Professor Chow, Mr. Ed Parker gave him an 'intro' to Master Bill Chun Sr. and Mr. Cerio began studying with Mr. Chun. Then, in turn, Master Chun Sr. gave Professor Cerio an 'intro' to William Chow and he started studying with him. That's how it was done, the 'intro' thing, sort of like vouching for someone. They wouldn't just take anyone. I thoroughly enjoyed the seminar and myself, KenpoJoe Rebelo and Sensei Matt Barnes got to go over Hansuki with Master Chun Jr. Don't get me wrong, since it was and still is a 'chosen' form he could not go over it in its entirety or in any great detail, but he took a little from the beginning, the middle and the end and only did it once so you had better pay attention if you wanted to pick up anything and he did it fast. I got to put some of the 'original' back in the version I was taught. Hansuki is a favorite form of mine so this alone made the seminar for me, if you know what I mean. KenpoJoe and Matt have the same version of Hansuki as myself and Master Chun looked at it but was not critical at all for the alterations. He stated as long as you give its original creator the credit for the form, there is nothing wrong with adding your signature moves. As each master does this down the lineage line, each is contributing something to the form which is passed on and the system continues to evolve. I know some I agree with this and some don't but I'm just relaying what he told me in an e-mail. Yes, my friend who trains under Master Chun is a Nick Cerio 5th dan, Shihan John James, very knowledgable, a gentleman and above all, a fighter. You can e-mail him at the Nick Cerio website for he knows much more about Master Chun and Goshinjitsu Kai Chinese Kempo than I. Respectfully submitted.
 
Karazenpo ,

why is Hansuki form so special and different from other ????

what is the different between yours and original ????

a great detail pls

thanks
 
I trained with William K.S. Chow from 1985 until his death. I see very little similarity to anything people are calling kenpo today. He really didn’t teach kata at least in the way most people think of it. Most of the prearranged movements were done briefly in the air then done on shields. A lot of people use Prof. Chow’s name that he considered non-student or beginner students. That would include a few big names.
 
Originally posted by CoolKempoDude


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why is Hansuki form so special and different from other ????
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If I may jump in here,
Hansuki, is a form created for the Chow/Chun lineage. Probably created by Gm. Bill Chun Sr. and approved by Professor Chow. Professor Chow did not teach Kata himself, but encouraged his students to develop their own system and curriculum based on his teachings. When I last spoke to Gm. Bill Chun Jr. a couple years back, he credited the Professor for its creation. Some say they have seen Professor Chow performing a Hung Gar form at a tournament in San Francisco. Perhaps Hansuki!
Hansuki is a beautiful and challenging form. The Shaolin Kempo's version is different but close enough. Its signature, is rapid fire strikes with the thumb knuckle resting on the middle of the index finger (much like the Isshin Ryu fist formation) to the soft tissue targets.
what is the different between yours and original ????
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No one knows the original except the practitioners of Goshinjutsu kai. And perhaps they don't know the Shaolin Kempo's version! Mr. Bill Chun Jr. is not forthcoming with his curriculum with the outsiders.

Salute,

P.S. What is the meaning of Hansuki? Anyone care to know?
 
Originally posted by kenmpoka


P.S. What is the meaning of Hansuki? Anyone care to know?
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since you gave your answer, i don't see the reason why NOT. we care to know.

thanks.
 
Brother Peter, at a seminar I remember Master Bill Chun saying, tongue in cheek, that if his father ever knew how popular Hansuki would become, he would have given it a different name. This led me to believe the from was created by Master Bill Chun Sr. and he probably went over it with Professor Chow for his final approval. Just conjecture on my part.

JuJitsu1: I totally agree with your post!

Respectfully, Shihan Joe
 
Brother Peter, he stated he would have given it a BETTER name not different, my mistake. I just wanted to quote him as accurately as I remember, it was a 'better' name, lol.
 
I was given the impression by Bill Chun Jr. that the Honsuki form was created by Prof. Chow.

KG
 
Kempo guy and Kazakenpo, kenmpoka, and other people

you brought an interesting thing about the form.

when and where did you meet Master Chun ????

thanks
 
The last time I spoke to Mr.Chun, he vaguely translated Hansuki to "half open, half closed", refering to the change in natural weapons, such as a closed fist, to rakes, to claws, to spearhand, and so on... He did not seem too confident in his tone of voice, so I did some checking of my own. Since the original kanji is not available, and assuming the pronounciation to be correct, Hansuki does not translate to the suggested meaning. The word is in Japanese not Chinese in any dialect. In Japanese "han" means "half" and "suki" translates to gaps and openings. Put together should mean something like "half (small) openings (opportunities) or Gaps". Which matches the characteristics of the form with rapid fire strikes thru the opponent(s)'s attack (s).

I found it kind of strange for a chinese lineage to have a Japanese name for the organization (Goshinjutsu kai) and Japanese term for Kata. Mr. Kuoha does the same with his Kara-Ho which is the Japanese pronouciation of Tang Way (law), or Chinese Way or law !

Although Professor Chow_did use different Japanese and Chinese terms over the years for his systems and associations. So may be that is why !

Salute,

P.S. CoolKempoDude, I have only spoken to Mr. chun over the phone and have not met him personally. I believe Karazenpo attended one of his seminars.
 
Brother Peter, I've heard of that 'Hansuki fist' (Isshin ryu style fist) but here's the part that confuses me. I learned the form in a private with now Hanshi Craig Seavey in 1977. When Craig left for California I began training under Master John Fritz (currently Mr. Villari's highest ranking black belt) and also during this period we had black belt workouts in Dedham, Ma. with Gm. Villari, not to mention other black belts from that era I had trained with. Not once did we ever do this 'Hansuki fist' in the form. The only thing I remember Mr. Villari calling the backfist in Hansuki was a 'riken', which we were told was the Japanese word for 'backfist'. I'm going to have to say that this fist style formation was put into the form years after I left the organization (1981), as far as I can attest to it was not in the original. Master Bill Chun Jr. did say the same thing about Hansuki being Professor Chow's form to me but at the seminar I distinctly remember him saying 'if my father knew this form would become so popular he would have given it a better name'. That led Hanshi Seavey and I to believe that the form was created by his father, again, just conjecture on our part. As far as Professor Chow performing a Hung Gar form in San Francisco in the 60's, I inquired for verification a couple of years ago with the Sam Kuhua organization and I was told definitely not so. See if you can run that past your original sources, it would be interesting if it were true, especially if it were taped but why would they deny it? It doesn't make sense. Respectfully submitted, Brother Joe
 
Not once did we ever do this 'Hansuki fist' in the form.
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Hey Brother Joe,

The version I learned from Mr. Mailman Has the so called Hansuki fist formation. He is pretty stricked about not changing things in the system he teaches. He has also trained with Mr. Villari and Mr. Fred Baguely (sp?).

"Riken" or "Uraken" do mean backfist in Japanese Though.

There is Gentleman that goes by the name of 1960 from the Chun clan that posts on The Kenponet from time to time. He has a tape of the Professor performing a Hung Gar form. He also claims to have Hansuki taped. But he is not willing to share! Professor Chow might have taken up studies of forms in the latter years. After all, all his lineages teach kata as part of the curriculum.

Just a word of advise my friend; when it comes to Kenpo / Kempo, do not take anyones word to be 100% the TRUTH. Just my experience!

Salute,

P.S. Did you see Mr. Chun doing Hansuki with that Fist formation?
 
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