Judo Landing tips?

Gyakuto

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I practised Wado Ryu Karate which has many throws (Jiu Jutsu) and take downs - onto wooden floors back then…none of those namby-pamby mats for us 😳

We were advised to land on the biggest surface area, covered with the thickest muscles, as possible to spread the force of impact. The videos posted seem to show that principle with the lower buttocks and whole lateral aspect of the legs being the point of contact. I can’t figure out why slapping the mat seems to reduce impact but it does. It also stops you landing on your elbow which is very painful and potentially disastrous.
 

HighKick

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I practised Wado Ryu Karate which has many throws (Jiu Jutsu) and take downs - onto wooden floors back then…none of those namby-pamby mats for us 😳

We were advised to land on the biggest surface area, covered with the thickest muscles, as possible to spread the force of impact. The videos posted seem to show that principle with the lower buttocks and whole lateral aspect of the legs being the point of contact. I can’t figure out why slapping the mat seems to reduce impact but it does. It also stops you landing on your elbow which is very painful and potentially disastrous.
Agree but, see how there is the slightest bit of roll and how the leg is used to offset some of the impact? The roll distributes the impact. A straight slam where there is no chance to roll is the absolute worst, no matter what body part you land on.
Wrestling 101
 

Gerry Seymour

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How about these 2 videos?



You're asking a beginner to learn from some of the most difficult falls, from just videos of people falling - not even instructional videos. That is not generally a helpful approach.

On top of that, the instruction you're giving isn't related to Judo falls - the beginner technique is different from what you'd teach. Neither is right/wrong - but trying to learn Judo falls from your instructions won't help.
 

Gerry Seymour

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When you first get thrown. Jump in to it a bit. It is the half throws that wreck you.
This is solid advice. And loosen up. I've thrown folks who tensed at the beginning of a simple throw, so they went over my back like a piece of lumber - that makes the fall higher, and faster for your legs (angular velocity).
 

Gyakuto

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I think the main thing the roll does is to give one’s centre of mass more distance to decelerate when landing and therefore reduce the rate of deceleration. But if there isn’t any translational motion in the drop (i.e. you’re being dropped straight downwards), the methods in the posted videos wouldn’t really work to dissipate the energy of collison with the surface.

We need a physicist who know’s their stuff (@Fungus) to resolve the vectors and thus show it clearly.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I practised Wado Ryu Karate which has many throws (Jiu Jutsu) and take downs - onto wooden floors back then…none of those namby-pamby mats for us 😳

We were advised to land on the biggest surface area, covered with the thickest muscles, as possible to spread the force of impact. The videos posted seem to show that principle with the lower buttocks and whole lateral aspect of the legs being the point of contact. I can’t figure out why slapping the mat seems to reduce impact but it does. It also stops you landing on your elbow which is very painful and potentially disastrous.
The slap has a mild effect on the perceived force of the fall, once you get the rest of the fall right. In my experience, its most important function is that it controls rotation at the end and focuses your attention, so you're landing in the proper orientation. I can definitely tell the difference if I don't slap, but when my falls were really good, I could take any fall with or without the slap, with a noticeable but not extreme difference.

And I'd love to learn how folks use those slaps when on hard surfaces. The way I learned to slap, you have to leave it out on a hard surface or tolerate the very bad feeling in your hand. I suspect some have learned to use the hand for control, only (not a real slap, but a fast "reach"). I spent little time taking real falls (where your feet aren't touching the ground) off-mat.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I think the main thing the roll does is to give one’s centre of mass more distance to decelerate when landing and therefore reduce the rate of deceleration. But if there isn’t any translational motion in the drop (i.e. you’re being dropped straight downwards), the methods in the posted videos wouldn’t really work to dissipate the energy of collison with the surface.

We need a physicist who know’s their stuff (@Fungus) to resolve the vectors and thus show it clearly.
I can't think of a throw where you'd be going straight down that could be finished with a roll. Which, now that I type that, is because the roll wouldn't work - pretty much what you said.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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You're asking a beginner to learn from some of the most difficult falls, from just videos of people falling - not even instructional videos. That is not generally a helpful approach.
My videos show that sometimes when you are thrown, you truly don't know which part of your body will land first. The Chinese wrestling method emphasizes on protecting your head in that situation. I know Judo guys don't do this.

The Chinese wrestling falling method is used in parachute jumping. The parachute jumper has helmet. Without helmet, you have to use your arms to protect your head.

No matter what MA that you train, when you realize that your head will hit on the hard ground, what will you do?

parachute_break-fall.jpg


 
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marvin8

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My videos show that sometimes when you are thrown, you truly don't know which part of your body will land first. The Chinese wrestling method emphasizes on protecting your head in that situation. I know Judo guys don't do this.

The Chinese wrestling falling method is used in parachute jumping. The parachute jumper has helmet. Without helmet, you have to use your arms to protect your head.

No matter what MA that you train, when you realize that your head will hit on the hard ground, what will you do?

View attachment 30650

Apparently, not all Chinese wrestling (nor parkour) land that way.

Excerpt from Wang Wenyong 王文永 - A Life Dedicated to Shuai Jiao 摔跤

 

Kung Fu Wang

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Gerry Seymour

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My videos show that sometimes when you are thrown, you truly don't know which part of your body will land first. The Chinese wrestling method emphasizes on protecting your head in that situation. I know Judo guys don't do this.

The Chinese wrestling falling method is used in parachute jumping. The parachute jumper has helmet. Without helmet, you have to use your arms to protect your head.

No matter what MA that you train, when you realize that your head will hit on the hard ground, what will you do?

View attachment 30650

None of which is helpful for someone trying to learn Judo falls.

Oh, and Judo falls definitely do protect the head - just not with the method you use, and with different effect (less effective in some ways, more effective in others).
 

Gerry Seymour

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In your clip, if there are rocks on the ground, when they use hands to slap on the ground, the back of their head can still hit on the rock. To slap on the mat only work indoor on the mat. It's dangerous to use it outdoor with rocks on the ground.

How big are these rocks?
 

geezer

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My videos show that sometimes when you are thrown, you truly don't know which part of your body will land first. The Chinese wrestling method emphasizes on protecting your head in that situation. I know Judo guys don't do this.

The Chinese wrestling falling method is used in parachute jumping. The parachute jumper has helmet. Without helmet, you have to use your arms to protect your head.

No matter what MA that you train, when you realize that your head will hit on the hard ground, what will you do?

View attachment 30650

My old Chinese Wing Tsun sifu taught falling this way. He did not like the Judo style ground slapping break-fall at all. Instead he taught us to grab the back of our neck like in Shuai Chiao.

It seemed very functional and also worked when being thrown horizontally into a hard wall. This hand position automatically helps round your back into a strong, elastic shape which helps you absorb the impact. It definitely works better if you are relaxed. When slammed into a wall your back absorbs the impact "like a dumpling or ball of dough".

Another advantage for striking arts is that the arms are in a much better position to quickly recover into either a defensive guard or offensive striking position than with the hands thrown out to the sides to break-fall.

He asserted that and slapping, by contrast, was a good way to injure your arm ...if used when thrown on a hard surface.

Of course he was addressing self-defense applications, not sporting contests held on mats.
 

marvin8

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In your clip, if there are rocks on the ground, when they use hands to slap on the ground, the back of their head can still hit on the rock. To slap on the mat only work indoor on the mat. It's dangerous to use it outdoor with rocks on the ground.

You only posted demos and a movie. Please post a shuai chiao competition video where they land with your method.

Height Drop Tutorial, landing on rocks...

 

Buka

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I’ve been trained in “break-fall” a lot. But nothing teaches you how to deal with unexpected falls more than growing up in New England and learning what black ice is.

You find out quickly whether your break fall skills work or not. And even worse than pavement, is hard frozen dirt. It’s like steel that’s in a bad mood.
 

Gerry Seymour

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My old Chinese Wing Tsun sifu taught falling this way. He did not like the Judo style ground slapping break-fall at all. Instead he taught us to grab the back of our neck like in Shuai Chiao.

It seemed very functional and also worked when being thrown horizontally into a hard wall. This hand position automatically helps round your back into a strong, elastic shape which helps you absorb the impact. It definitely works better if you are relaxed. When slammed into a wall your back absorbs the impact "like a dumpling or ball of dough".

Another advantage for striking arts is that the arms are in a much better position to quickly recover into either a defensive guard or offensive striking position than with the hands thrown out to the sides to break-fall.

He asserted that and slapping, by contrast, was a good way to injure your arm ...if used when thrown on a hard surface.

Of course he was addressing self-defense applications, not sporting contests held on mats.
I've seen folks use the slap on hard surfaces, but I don't know how. I learned to fall on a hard surface without the slap when attending seminars in hotel ballrooms, but I never learned a fall for a high throw on hard surfaces, because that's an unlikely scenario. There is a feather fall used in Aikido (the art) that works much better, but I never got any good at it, from the few times I was exposed to it when visiting dojos. I did learn their feather front fall, which I like better for some situations than the one I was taught.

I've been intrigued by this style of fall - KFW has posted it before - and would love to learn it if I ever find myself around someone who knows it well enough to teach it. It definitely has advantages, and would be a good add-in.

EDIT: When I first learned Judo falls (back in Judo), we were required to learn to do them without the slap. My instructor said that slapping during a fall in a tournament was a sure way to get the throw scored higher.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Of course he was addressing self-defense applications, not sporting contests held on mats.
When you slap the ground with your arm, your body is exposed. Your opponent may drop his elbow or knee on your chest.

When I was young, I was stupid and tried to pull my opponent down with me when he threw me. My opponent dropped his elbow straight down onto my heart. I was almost killed that day. Since then, I would never pull down my opponent with me. Today, "pull guard" seems to be quite popular used.
 

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When you slap the ground with your arm, your body is exposed. Your opponent may drop his elbow or knee on your chest.

When I was young, I was stupid and tried to pull my opponent down with me when he threw me. My opponent dropped his elbow straight down onto my heart. I was almost killed that day. Since then, I would never pull down my opponent with me. Today, "pull guard" seems to be quite popular used.
The hand that slaps would be protecting the side that is on the ground, which is protected by the ground. The other arm is usually controlled by the person throwing you, attached to them, or free to guard as desired.
 
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