Journey to a new style...

[Gyakuto164 173]

One of the difference that makes the variations IMO at least is:
Suppose I aim for the solar plexuts or stomach just below the ribs.

- the angle of the opponents torso relative to me; this determins if i curve the kick or not. Curvig usually implies a mawashi/front hybrid.

- the distance, are they running into me? or running awat? Here do i need a stop kick (strong rooting) or do it need to jump or step into the kick?

- is non telegrapg or power priority+

just this basic scenarios along (regardless of what club you belong to) gives rives to many variations. And if you train them later, I'd train them - one by one.

Ur able to judge this very transient set of parameters in the blink of an eye? I’d’ve thought one was able to apply broad principles in these scenarios: her torso is exposed, my arms are too short to reach her torso, KICK!

 

[Fungus2]

Ur able to judge this very transient set of parameters in the blink of an eye? I’d’ve thought one was able to apply broad principles in these scenarios: her torso is exposed, my arms are too short to reach her torso, KICK!

Not sure if i get the question, but I described the different versions. And power generation gets different if you step in, rely on hip, or just the kicks to get power. So training them separately isnt bad i think.

Of course reacting or predicting your opponent in real time is hard, but in a real situation I'm not making a "multi-parameter choice" and then decice which one, its more a continuuum, where you adapt and always end up with a hybrid. this fluidity is what one hopes to attain again after lots of training and sparring... I have a long way before i am satisfied of course, but at least I am better than when i started.

 

[windwalker099164 13]

I feel they're all basically the same. I kick the same way when I train Taij. I also kick the same way when I trained Karate.

If you feel they’re all basically the same, it may be that you haven’t trained deeply enough in each method for their differences to become apparent. At a basic level, a kick is a kick. At greater depth, how the body organizes, generates and delivers the movement can be quite different.

Those differences are part of what gives a method its particular advantage—something it develops that another person may not recognize or know how to deal with.

David Chin put it nicely when discussing Tongbei:

“For example, tongbei is different than regular kung fu. It’s the way they use the power, the way they deliver momentum and striking force. That’s what makes it outstanding... Whatever you do, I don’t want. Whatever I do and you don’t know – that’s how we win.”

—David Chin

 

[Kung Fu Wang164 195]

At a basic level, a kick is a kick. At greater depth, how the body organizes, generates and delivers the movement can be quite different.

Comparing to these videos, at greater depth, how can a Taiji kick be any different?

 

[windwalker099164 13]

how can a Taiji kick be any different?

If you practiced Taiji as a method—rather than simply using its movements—you would understand the difference.

Just as if you practiced any of the other arts mentioned as a method, rather than simply using their movements.

Methods combine tactics, strategies, and theory expressed through movement—hence the distinctions between them.

Once a method is burned in, it doesn't mean you can't perform movements found in other methods. They may look superficially the same, but they won't necessarily contain the same qualities or advantages as when performed by someone whose movement has been developed through that particular method.

The term "kickboxing" was often applied in the '70s to CMA practitioners who were fighting with kicks and punches but weren't really expressing their CMA method in application.

You mentioned not using a style or one particular method. If that's the case, how would you expect to understand another method while practicing in a way that doesn't follow the method you're attempting to understand?

Someone I once worked with had a fairly famous CMA teacher. I asked him,

"Why would you want to practice with me when your teacher is quite famous?"

He replied: "My teacher teaches 'Taiji.' You know 'Taiji.'"

Note: I don't claim to “know” anything.
I do share my practice with others, allowing them to feel some of my teacher's work.

 

[Kung Fu Wang164 195]

If you practiced Taiji as a method—rather than simply using its movements—you would understand the difference.

IMO, movement = method.

Let's look at another example. You can take your opponent down by using:

- Taiji diagonal fly.
- long fist shoulder strike, or
- SC body squeeze.

There all look exactly the same in "movement". What can be the "method" different here?

 

[windwalker099164 13]

There all look exactly the same in "movement". What can be the "method" different here?

You have already said:
“I kick the same way when I train Taiji. I also kick the same way when I trained Karate.”

If you kick the same way in both, it means you're unable to understand the differences between either.

 

[Kung Fu Wang164 195]

You have already said:
“I kick the same way when I train Taiji. I also kick the same way when I trained Karate.”

If you kick the same way in both, it means you're unable to understand the differences between either.

To answer your question honestly, I have 3 Taiji teachers. None of them ever mentioned that Taiji kick is any different from long fist kick. I think they all believe that kicking has no style boundary.

Let me ask this, when your opponent punches at your face,

- Will you use long fist kick or Taiji kick?
- What's the difference?

 

[windwalker099164 13]

Let me ask this, when your opponent punches at your face,

- Will you use long fist kick or Taiji kick?
- What's the difference?

Don't "know" long fist, there is no "taiji" kick....

There is movement that accords with "taiji" methods, and there is movement that does not...
It depends on the depth and level of understanding that one has....If someone feels there is no difference
then the point of referring to it as "taiji" is moot....

 

[Kung Fu Wang164 195]

there is no "taiji" kick.... There is movement that accords with "taiji" methods, and there is movement that does not...

This is what I have tried to say all these years.

Can we say this? If a guy

- only trains Taiji, his kick must use Taiji "method" (because he doesn't know other "method").
- cross trains many different styles, his kick may not use Taiji "method".

Since we have discussed this subject down to this level, I'm very interested to know the following:

If a guy has cross trained Karate, TKD, MT, long fist, and Taiji, his kick should be able to use 5 different "methods". Which "method" should he use, when, and why?

 

[Gyakuto164 173]

@_Simon_ , any further thoughts on what you’re going to do?

No pressure, it’s just a boring Bank holiday in the UK and I’d like a bit of lively conversation

 

[_Simon_164 195]

@_Simon_ , any further thoughts on what you’re going to do?

No pressure, it’s just a boring Bank holiday in the UK and I’d like a bit of lively conversation

Honestly I keep flipping back and forth... my instructor has really spent so much one on one time with me the last few classes, he's been really great, but then in the last class I noticed and asked the two other that would be grading with me, and seems they aren't ready at all either with one of their requirements too... I just don't know what's what anymore really.

 

[_Simon_164 195]

@_Simon_ , any further thoughts on what you’re going to do?

No pressure, it’s just a boring Bank holiday in the UK and I’d like a bit of lively conversation

(Thank you for bringing it back on topic too )

 

[Gyakuto164 173]

It seems to me you have two way markers that need addressing: your imminent nidan grading (don’t concern yourself with other graders issues) and then your long term progression. Perhaps you can break down the problem that way?

Your teacher is now doing what he should’ve been doing all along albeit in not quite as intensive a way. Do you think he has the motivation to continue with that after your grading? It doesn’t need to be as intensive as for grading preparation, but it has to be tangible in each lesson.

Do you think he’s likely to significantly ‘lift his foot off the accelerator peddle’ once you’ve (successfully) graded? This is difficult to ascertain but it will become evident within a few months of you grading and perhaps you can make the difficult decision at that point.

I don’t wish to force you into being immodest, but are you a bit of a ‘star student’ in his dojo? If so, that might be why he doesn’t want to lose you to another dojo.

 

[_Simon_164 195]

It seems to me you have two way markers that need addressing: your imminent nidan grading (don’t concern yourself with other graders issues) and then your long term progression. Perhaps you can break down the problem that way?

Yeah true, and it feels it's all interrelated in a way... as for grading, if I look retrospectively, I have improved/progressed in a few ways the past 2 years since grading to Shodan. Not hugely, but I have. So doing my nidan grading would mean something. I just really don't know what. I'm trying to see it on a personal level, but it's hard not to look at the others' issues. That sort of thing doesn't make sense to me, and speaks to a wider issue of what a grading means. He has said in the past when I questioned someone else's grading that it isn't solely about nailing the bunkai etc, but looking at the whole person and their character development too. I can appreciate that for sure.. but technical ability to me matters quite a bit..

So I could go for it and it would mean something. I have trained incredibly hard through the past 2 years. I have progressed in ways. But it's just so hard to know what standard is being applied, or if it's just some box that's being ticked off for sort of doing it half-right.

Part of me honestly just cannot be bothered with going ahead with it, and that really saddens me, as karate means so much to me. That excitement or joy to go for it isn't there.

Long-term I honestly can't see much changing, and it feels like it won't be much more to work on, and the feedback I'm after not being there to guide me...

Do you think he has the motivation to continue with that after your grading? It doesn’t need to be as intensive as for grading preparation, but it has to be tangible in each lesson.

I think on some level for sure. Not as intensive. It just feels like the last little while I've been more in a teaching role. He has spent time with me for sure. But this last bit leading up to grading there were major things that I hadn't touched on much at all which were required for my grading.

I don’t wish to force you into being immodest, but are you a bit of a ‘star student’ in his dojo? If so, that might be why he doesn’t want to lose you to another dojo.

If I'm being completely honest, and I hate to say so, but yeah, 100%. He has said in previous communication when I was questioning standard a bit, that he did say I was more than welcome to train elsewhere and he would never hold me back. That first bit sounded aggressive the way I wrote it haha, I mean that he would be totally okay if I wished to move on. He is absolutely not the controlling type and is really grateful for my presence in the dojo, says I uplift everyone's there which is incredibly nice to say.

That's pretty much the main thing keeping me there at this stage, the people. Really love those guys, but I feel like I'm being held back now in my own progress and learning.

Ugh...

 

[Gyakuto164 173]

Yeah true, and it feels it's all interrelated in a way... as for grading, if I look retrospectively, I have improved/progressed in a few ways the past 2 years since grading to Shodan. Not hugely, but I have. So doing my nidan grading would mean something. I just really don't know what. I'm trying to see it on a personal level, but it's hard not to look at the others' issues. That sort of thing doesn't make sense to me, and speaks to a wider issue of what a grading means. He has said in the past when I questioned someone else's grading that it isn't solely about nailing the bunkai etc, but looking at the whole person and their character development too. I can appreciate that for sure.. but technical ability to me matters quite a bit..

Hitting the grading points is the minimum standard, I suppose. One has to show some sort of ‘flair’ perhaps, maturity of technique and at higher grades, of character.

So I could go for it and it would mean something. I have trained incredibly hard through the past 2 years. I have progressed in ways. But it's just so hard to know what standard is being applied, or if it's just some box that's being ticked off for sort of doing it half-right.

Box ticking is part of the process. I’ve always thought that the shinsa shows you’ve at the very minimum,hit the grading points, but it’s the weeks and months of trading after the grading where one’s position fits like a comfy (wide toe box/zero drop) shoe that’s molded to your feet.

Part of me honestly just cannot be bothered with going ahead with it, and that really saddens me, as karate means so much to me. That excitement or joy to go for it isn't there.

Someone’s going to say it eventually so I’ll get in their first; “grade advancement isn’t everything” but it is an important part of a martial arts journey. Being indifferent to grading will disinhibit you by relieving your nerves and your performance will be exceptional……or maybe you’re not quite ready yet!

Long-term I honestly can't see much changing, and it feels like it won't be much more to work on, and the feedback I'm after not being there to guide me...

That’s a good piece of information. You will not continue to improve under your current teacher’s coaching. Your decision is made!

I think on some level for sure. Not as intensive. It just feels like the last little while I've been more in a teaching role.

Does your teaching role lift his load? Who wouldn’t want that?

He has spent time with me for sure. But this last bit leading up to grading there were major things that I hadn't touched on much at all which were required for my grading.

No ideal…

If I'm being completely honest, and I hate to say so, but yeah, 100%.

You arrogant, f**king, bigheaded w*nker-fu*k! (I’ve been waiting all afternoon for the opportunity to say that )

He has said in previous communication when I was questioning standard a bit, that he did say I was more than welcome to train elsewhere and he would never hold me back. That first bit sounded aggressive the way I wrote it haha, I mean that he would be totally okay if I wished to move on. He is absolutely not the controlling type and is really grateful for my presence in the dojo, says I uplift everyone's there which is incredibly nice to say. That's pretty much the main thing keeping me there at this stage, the people. Really love those guys, but I feel like I'm being held back now in my own progress and learning.

You sound like a key member of the dojo. Couldn’t you train both dojo? Learn in one, practise your teaching skills and maintain your friendships in the other? That’s a good solution!

 

[_Simon_164 195]

Box ticking is part of the process. I’ve always thought that the shinsa shows you’ve at the very minimum,hit the grading points, but it’s the weeks and months of trading after the grading where one’s position fits like a comfy (wide toe box/zero drop) shoe that’s molded to your feet.

Hmm, that's a really interesting perspective. Gives me something to think about for sure, thank you.

Someone’s going to say it eventually so I’ll get in their first; “grade advancement isn’t everything” but it is an important part of a martial arts journey. Being indifferent to grading will disinhibit you by relieving your nerves and your performance will be exceptional……or maybe you’re not quite ready yet!

Oh don't worry, I know grading/rank isn't everything. I do still feel it has a significance. But I just meant on a human level, to be offered this opportunity and feel not great about it compared to how I would in the past saddens me. To me it's quite a significant rank, and to feel like I do is just not a nice feeling. That's why I don't really know what it means to me anymore, and whether it's even worth going for.

I know what you mean about performance but it's not really what I'm getting at.

That’s a good piece of information. You will not continue to improve under your current teacher’s coaching. Your decision is made!

Well I certainly don't want to predict the future, I would improve in certain aspects, but not really the aspects I've been really drawn to and that feature in our style. Just in a superficial way I'd improve. If I was however to predict based on the past trajectory up until this point, it doesn't seem much will change.

Does your teaching role lift his load? Who wouldn’t want that?

It may, but I know he doesn't ask me to teach for that purpose.

You arrogant, f**king, bigheaded w*nker-fu*k! (I’ve been waiting all afternoon for the opportunity to say that )

I hope that was satisfying! You can do that anytime you like, full permission!

You sound like a key member of the dojo. Couldn’t you train both dojo? Learn in one, practise your teaching skills and maintain your friendships in the other? That’s a good solution!

That may be a possibility but fitting it all in would be tricky. I'm really happy that I've reconnected with my Kyokushin roots too and aim to continue that training as well, and wanting that to compliment my Goju training. But appreciate the broadening of horizons and considering all my options

 

[Gyakuto164 173]

Hmm, that's a really interesting perspective. Gives me something to think about for sure, thank you.

I improved as a scientist after my PhD during my first few years of lectureship. One grows into the rank/role.

Oh don't worry, I know grading/rank isn't everything. I do still feel it has a significance. But I just meant on a human level, to be offered this opportunity and feel not great about it compared to how I would in the past saddens me. To me it's quite a significant rank, and to feel like I do is just not a nice feeling. That's why I don't really know what it means to me anymore, and whether it's even worth going for.

A shinsa is an objective event. There’s no emotion attached to it. Your negative feelings are internally generated (subjective) and you should be honest in your self exploration to get to the bottom. It could be your inadequacies and even fault you feel like this! But that also means you can change your attitude. Take it for what it is - a test - and simply sit it. If you pass, great…start your journey to sandan (There is no alternative to not passing)

Well I certainly don't want to predict the future, I would improve in certain aspects, but not really the aspects I've been really drawn to and that feature in our style. Just in a superficial way I'd improve. If I was however to predict based on the past trajectory up until this point, it doesn't seem much will change.

Decision made!

I hope that was satisfying!

If you felt hurt, it’d’ve been far more pleasurable

You can do that anytime you like, full permission!

You never seem to deserve it…which is annoying!

That may be a possibility but fitting it all in would be tricky.

Give up work to free up time…after all, you only need to eat once a week and you don’t need heating in Australia.

I'm really happy that I've reconnected with my Kyokushin roots too and aim to continue that training as well, and wanting that to compliment my Goju training. But appreciate the broadening of horizons and considering all my options

Pass your shinsa, move on.

 

[_Simon_164 195]

A shinsa is an objective event. There’s no emotion attached to it. Your negative feelings are internally generated (subjective) and you should be honest in your self exploration to get to the bottom. It could be your inadequacies and even fault you feel like this! But that also means you can change your attitude. Take it for what it is - a test - and simply sit it. If you pass, great…start your journey to sandan (There is no alternative to not passing)

I... do see what you're saying. It isn't inadequacies but seems to be related to my compounding feelings about the club. Again I'm just relaying it on a human level. That karate is something of such value to me, and for it to feel this meh is so strikingly contrasting and deflating, especially something like this opportunity.

Yeah but that is very valid, how I see the event is really essential. And the grading is quite honestly not a walk in the park at all. It's not simply a survival course like some, but has peaks of real intensity, and long drawn out sections, stamina, technical understanding, drills..

I just want it to mean something. And upon reflecting on it... I actually do feel it will still.

Decision made!

Haha.. we'll see but it's leaning that way..

If you felt hurt, it’d’ve been far more pleasurable

no I felt rather tickled by it!

Give up work to free up time…after all, you only need to eat once a week and you don’t need heating in Australia.

Makes sense to me!

Pass your shinsa, move on.

You know, this is exactly what the other instructor who previously left said, that I shouldn't leave at Shodan, but do my Nidan, and by the end of the year either move on or consider where else may be a good fit.

 

[Gyakuto164 173]

Now I find myself in a learning dilemma!